Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

Neil3030

thomond2006 wrote: »

If you proportion the central contract spend by the IRFU, I'm fairly certain the provinces exceed the Premiership cap amount.

Probably true.

But a fair comparison would probably need to only consider around 75-80% of the central contract values, since International players receive fees from the RFU that exempt from the cap.

RFU also pay clubs to release players but that's a separate discussion.

Bazzo

thomond2006 wrote: »

If you proportion the central contract spend by the IRFU, I'm fairly certain the provinces exceed the Premiership cap amount.

Provinces plural? Connacht aren't within an asses roar of the premiership salary cap

molloyjh

I reckon Leinster are in or around the cap. If they are higher then its not by much.

What I find most frustrating about this stuff though is the outward looking nature of it all. The "oh we are struggling to compete so the rest of you need to change" notion (and its not the first time we've seen that).

When the Celtic nations were struggling 20 years ago we had to figure out for ourselves how we were going to compete with the likes of the Leicesters and the Toulouses. We had to look inward at our own set ups and figure out what we needed to do to become more competitive at the top level. Maybe its time English rugby did the same if they feel they are struggling now.

awec

The problem is that having different financial rules across teams that play in the same competition is nonsense and unfair.

Either a salary cap / financial-fair-play framework needs to be introduced at a european level, or the English teams need to scrap their salary cap.

salmocab

awec wrote: »

The problem is that having different financial rules across teams that play in the same competition is nonsense and unfair.

Either a salary cap / financial-fair-play framework needs to be introduced at a european level, or the English teams need to scrap their salary cap.

Salary caps across different jurisdictions is unfair too, different currencies, tax bands etc make it unworkable, FFP makes sense but Sarries themselves showed how it can be easily bypassed. Look at how it works/doesn’t work in soccer.

awec

salmocab wrote: »

Salary caps across different jurisdictions is unfair too, different currencies, tax bands etc make it unworkable, FFP makes sense but Sarries themselves showed how it can be easily bypassed. Look at how it works/doesn’t work in soccer.

FFP was pretty successful in soccer in stopping clubs spending more than they earn. The biggest criticism is that it protects the big clubs as it makes it hard for smaller clubs to get a sudden inward investment and start spending.

FFP is unlikely to be adopted in rugby as FFP is paradoxical to the union-owned model used in the Pro14.

salmocab

awec wrote: »

FFP was pretty successful in soccer in stopping clubs spending more than they earn. The biggest criticism is that it protects the big clubs as it makes it hard for smaller clubs to get a sudden inward investment and start spending.

FFP is unlikely to be adopted in rugby as FFP is paradoxical to the union-owned model used in the Pro14.

I’d argue it wasn’t successful in soccer, the big clubs got bigger and avoided it by having the financial clout to ignore it. It’s a nice idea but just like communism it’s unworkable because everyone has to agree to play the same game to the same rules.

thomond2006

Salary caps work in American sports because those leagues are closed systems with a monopoly of owning the highest tier of their sport.

errlloyd

thomond2006 wrote: »

Salary caps work in American sports because those leagues are closed systems with a monopoly of owning the highest tier of their sport.

And we also perceive them as working when sometimes they don't.

Golden State warriors created a dynasty by gaming the salary and getting lucky when it shifted. LeVeon Bell effectively went on strike when salary cap rules forced him into a contract much lower than his worth. The NFL has 32 pro teams and 32 Pro kickers. As a hefty group of nearly pros spend all their time waiting for an injury so they can step up. Every year some NBA teams are accused of throwing games to get better draft picks, ruining the league balance for everyone else.

thomond2006

I suppose I meant to say "can work" rather than work. The salary cap is ultimately a way for the league collectively to make money by preventing a Man City type situation where wages get inflated out of control.

Podge_irl

While Leinster are, I imagine, in or around the Premiership cap level - the very dynamic of having to play in Ireland to play for Ireland massively distorts the wage levels.

Ultimately, I don't care. The French are definitely out in front and the cap is partly a product of the English clubs driving up wages a ridiculous amount anyway so its their own fault.

Clegg

Furlong has a calf injury now and is uncertain to be ready for the 6Nations in 4 weeks time.

Richie_Rich89

Wonder what sort of team we'll see out versus the Dragons. I'd like to see them make a real effort to try to develop Jimmy O'Brien up to a level where he's challenging Ringrose for the starting 13 jersey. Ringrose is good at what he does but he's also somewhat limited. I've seen some people label him a playmaker and I just don't get it at all. He's a fine passer, but he lacks the vision/understanding to use passes to unlock a defence. You couldn't really imagine him putting a delay on a pass to put someone into a gap like Sexton did when passing to Baird for Lowe's try against Munster first game back. That vision to see how to put others into space isn't there to any great extent. It's incredibly frustrating to see him die with the ball nearly every time he makes a linebreak.

Obviously, you don't want to take his strong points for granted - he does have a great eye for cutting a line that'll see him break through the defence. And his defence is pretty solid - both in terms of tackling and making reads. It's just that at the very highest level - against your Saracens of this world - the chances to make slashing linebreaks aren't there that much because defences are so tight. There's no doubt he's a high level player; you could see him making the Lions squad, although it might take an injury to Davies, or Tuilagi being picked as a 12, but this lack of ball-playing is frustrating.

Ideally, Leinster need more footballing ability from their centres, is my point, whether that's from Conor O'Brien instead of Henshaw or potentially Jimmy O'Brien instead of Ringrose. It only becomes apparent against the very best opposition, but I think the need is there. They seem to be looking at Frawley as a 12. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Reid was there, and MOC used Madigan at inside centre, but I think Leinster's identity is more to have the 12 truck it up in the Darcy mould and have the 13 bring the skills. Frawley off the bench would be no bad thing though - maybe with the starting 12 (if it was Henshaw or COB) moving out to 13 to ask different questions later in matches by shifting the point of attack further out. I think 12 Frawley, 13. Ringrose might not complement each other that well. You probably need a power 13 outside a ball-player 12 to bring the punch.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

The problem is that having different financial rules across teams that play in the same competition is nonsense and unfair.

Either a salary cap / financial-fair-play framework needs to be introduced at a european level, or the English teams need to scrap their salary cap.

But we need different financial rules as different financial circumstances exist across the board. The idea that you can implement something across multiple jurisdictions doesn't really wash once you dig into it.

For example, where do you set the cap? At the level it currently is in England? How does that serve to do anything other than make it easier for English clubs to compete? It doesn't do anything for most P14 clubs and actively harms French rugby interests? Any higher and thay just means English clubs losing even more money. Any lower and theres simply no way the French agree to that.

Or how do you factor in locally produced internationals? Let's assume an international squad has 40 players. Thats, on average, 10 per Irish & Welsh sides and 20 per Scottish and Italian. In England thats 3 or 4 per side. So any measures to account for that are immediately weighted in favour the clubs in the smaller countries. Leinster in that case would benefit far more than, say, Bristol. And how then are you actually levelling the playing field? If you limit the allowances for something like that though are you not essentially punishing clubs from smaller countries for being from smaller countries and needing to supply their national team more than they would in larger countries?

Its a mess. But a salary cap only works if most or all other factors were equal. They aren't. So agreeing any sort of cap is almost impossible.

AbusesToilets

molloyjh wrote: »

But we need different financial rules as different financial circumstances exist across the board. The idea that you can implement something across multiple jurisdictions doesn't really wash once you dig into it.

For example, where do you set the cap? At the level it currently is in England? How does that serve to do anything other than make it easier for English clubs to compete? It doesn't do anything for most P14 clubs and actively harms French rugby interests? Any higher and thay just means English clubs losing even more money. Any lower and theres simply no way the French agree to that.

Or how do you factor in locally produced internationals? Let's assume an international squad has 40 players. Thats, on average, 10 per Irish & Welsh sides and 20 per Scottish and Italian. In England thats 3 or 4 per side. So any measures to account for that are immediately weighted in favour the clubs in the smaller countries. Leinster in that case would benefit far more than, say, Bristol. And how then are you actually levelling the playing field? If you limit the allowances for something like that though are you not essentially punishing clubs from smaller countries for being from smaller countries and needing to supply their national team more than they would in larger countries?

Its a mess. But a salary cap only works if most or all other factors were equal. They aren't. So agreeing any sort of cap is almost impossible.

I don't think a cap will ever satisfy unless the teams are operating in a common environment. Be that a B&I/ Euro league or a Europe wide agreement on cap and expense structures.

salmocab

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I don't think a cap will ever satisfy unless the teams are operating in a common environment. Be that a B&I/ Euro league or a Europe wide agreement on cap and expense structures.

But different countries, currencies and taxes make that uneven anyway

AbusesToilets

salmocab wrote: »

But different countries, currencies and taxes make that uneven anyway

Absolutely, it's an area that more ought to be done in. Tho on the tax front, it doesn't hamper the US sports, where there are states without income tax.

salmocab

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Absolutely, it's an area that more ought to be done in. Tho on the tax front, it doesn't hamper the US sports, where there are states without income tax.

I do think there’s room for some form of FFP but we’re talking 3 leagues across 6 countries, 2 currencies, 4 jurisdictions, 1 of them country split across 2 jurisdictions and currencies and thats without adding the saffers. It would be a nightmare to organize and more importantly police.

CatFromHue

Cheika was made head coach for the 05/06 season and left after the 09/10, so he had 5 full seasons.

Leo became head coach before the 15/16 season so that's 5 full seasons now.

Assuming Leo can keep his job for another few weeks means he'll be our longest ever serving head coach.

Eod100

Kearney joining Western Force https://twitter.com/westernforce/status/1310836712092971021?s=19

hirondelle

Eod100 wrote: »

Kearney joining Western Force https://twitter.com/westernforce/status/1310836712092971021?s=19

Has any other professional rugby player from Ireland played for an Aussie side before?

sydthebeat

hirondelle wrote: »

Has any other professional rugby player from Ireland played for an Aussie side before?

ruaidhri murphy played for the brumbies

PMC83

hirondelle wrote: »

Has any other professional rugby player from Ireland played for an Aussie side before?

Jamie Hagan was also with the Rebels for a season

Yeah_Right

Kearney would be arguably the biggest name to go to SR from Europe. The only others that spring to mind are Flaky Freddie, Haskell, Parling and Marchant.

Squidgy Black

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Kearney would be arguably the biggest name to go to SR from Europe. The only others that spring to mind are Flaky Freddie, Haskell, Parling and Marchant.

Cipriani for the Rebels and Andy Goode at the Sharks as well

errlloyd

Geoff Parling was a Lion

arsebiscuits1

Didn't Peter Clohessy play in Oz for a while to avoid a ban here?

EDIT: Looks like it https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/clolhessy-going-to-australia-1.87341

Clegg

Lancaster preaching calm over the defeat to Saracens. Also, near the end of the article Kinsella says Leinster have all their internationals available for section. Expect strong sides for the opening fixtures of the league.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1310905216561295361?s=19

RedRaider0

a big win in the league will mean little..

that wasn't last years saracens side, it was a pale imitation as seen last weekend against racing.

that "performace" against saracens was embarrassing.

Clegg

Clegg wrote: »

Lancaster preaching calm over the defeat to Saracens. Also, near the end of the article Kinsella says Leinster have all their internationals available for section. Expect strong sides for the opening fixtures of the league.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1310905216561295361?s=19

Makes sense to be honest. A swallow does not make a summer. I'd back leinster to win that game everytime. It doesn't mean they actually will win it everytime. They still be favourites.