Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

Buer

kmart6 wrote: »

Cockerill couldn't go his post match interview without passing comment on Leinster having a bigger budget. :rolleyes:

Well, he's not wrong. It's a significant factor in the success of the provinces in the league (not that they should be blamed) . Irish rugby been ran far more efficiently and successfully which has allowed higher budgets, far greater player retention and higher calibre of signing than what the likes of Edinburgh have.

The best Scottish players in recent years have all departed. Hogg x 2, Gray x 2, Barclay, Russell, Laidlaw, Maitland, Grant, Beattie, Kelly Brown etc. They're broke and can't retain anyone. As soon as they make a career, they leave for better money.

It's a unique situation to have the league spread across multiple leagues where there are different budgets available with no cap in place.

antietam1

Akrasia wrote: »

what do you mean? That he should have just ignored all of the offside leinster players?

Ludicrous long scrum advantage for one thing.

kingofthekong

Everyone fit my starting Leinster backrow is:

8. Doris
7. Connors
6. Leavy

Bench spot goes to the best of the rest between Conan, Ruddock, vdf, Deegan and Penny

The Lost Sheep

kingofthekong wrote: »

What a strange luxury to have that we are worried we are too good for the league.....I remember watching Des Dillon and Brian Blaney in the rain in DonnyBrook watching leinster get pumped by some ****e teams....strange looking back at that

It wont last for ever but something needs to change to help the league

Buer wrote: »

Edinburgh are in free fall. Not only that but they were missing 21 players tonight. It's great to see the fringe guys delivering and showing excellent skills but I think we need to relax on the talk of guys being capped. It's very hard to know where these guys are unless we see them in European match or interpro at least.

Given the performances and injuries of late, I'd say Frawley, JOB and Leavy are those likely to be featuring in December for Leinster. Those are the games that will count for a call up. Penny might get one start that month unfortunately. He has a rake of guys ahead of him in Leinster let alone for Ireland.

JOB is looking like someone that could really give a playmaking option from 15 with Kearney/Keenan and Lowe on the wings.

Totally agree. Leinster can through in 1/2 young guys and theyre so dominant its easier to look very good in these kind of league games. Europe and the bigger league games very different matter.

Buer wrote: »

Well, he's not wrong. It's a significant factor in the success of the provinces in the league (not that they should be blamed) . Irish rugby been ran far more efficiently and successfully which has allowed higher budgets, far greater player retention and higher calibre of signing than what the likes of Edinburgh have.

The best Scottish players in recent years have all departed. Hogg x 2, Gray x 2, Barclay, Russell, Laidlaw, Maitland, Grant, Beattie, Kelly Brown etc. They're broke and can't retain anyone. As soon as they make a career, they leave for better money.

It's a unique situation to have the league spread across multiple leagues where there are different budgets available with no cap in place.

Do we put in cap and what level do we put it in?

antietam1 wrote: »

Ludicrous long scrum advantage for one thing.

Was it penalty or free kick advantage? Where on pitch was it?
All help decide the length of advantage.

molloyjh

Some great stuff shown by a bunch of players today. Leavys form is very encouraging. Penny was excellent. McGrath, Harry Byrne, Frawley, Kelleher & JOB were all very good. Off the bench Baird seemed to pick up almost where he left off. Sheehan looked strong too. Can't say I noticed Turner and wasn't overly convinced on Hawshaw. But very early days for both.

The handling at times was exceptional today. The attacking intent was a joy to watch. But all of it has to be viewed through the lens of the huge disparity between the sides.

None of this is actually good for Leinster overall. We simply are not getting challenged and that won't help us when we face tougher opposition. Its also awful for the league. We're on 30, Ulster are on 28 and Ospreys who are 3rd are on 9. The conference is already over 6 games in.

Interested Observer

Really enjoyed the pace everything was done at last night. Seems there's another group of quality youngsters coming through. Think there were a few future internationals out there.

pickarooney

We need to start thinking about loaning players out to the Welsh and Scottish sides.

arsebiscuits1

pickarooney wrote: »

We need to start thinking about loaning players out to the Welsh and Scottish sides.

Worked out fairly ok for Tadgh Beirne :pac:

Buer

antietam1 wrote: »

Ludicrous long scrum advantage for one thing.

It's at the discretion of the referee which can lead to frustration. The scrum is a method of restarting the game. I think once the team have clean ruck ball, it should be advantage over but that often goes much further.

The one I found odd was penalty advantage when Edinburgh won a penalty from a scrum between halfway and the 10m line. They made a clean line break then and took play up to just outside the 22 where the ball was slow (but not turned over) and the referee took them back 30m for the penalty. Edinburgh kicked to touch 5m away from where they had been.

bayern

would like to see some more risks been taken in selection... starting both Fardy and Toner at this level is overkill... give a young lock a start.

Dan Sheehan at 2 and a young 9 starting would be good to see.

Referees that play advantage from 40m out are just wasting time. I imagine <1% of those advantages don't come back to the original penalty.

It's something I'd like to see them exercise better cop-on with.

arsebiscuits1

Deleted User wrote: »

Referees that play advantage from 40m out are just wasting time. I imagine <1% of those advantages don't come back to the original penalty.

It's something I'd like to see them exercise better cop-on with.

That should not be down to the refs.

If players don't want it, they don't need to use it. Simply ask for the penalty and then go for the kick at goal.

Sure 99% of advantages might not come to nothing, but if you're High Performance you're constantly searching for that 1% then you play every advantage trying to get ahead

Interested Observer

bayern wrote: »

would like to see some more risks been taken in selection... starting both Fardy and Toner at this level is overkill... give a young lock a start.

Dan Sheehan at 2 and a young 9 starting would be good to see.

Tend to agree, Big Dev has been an incredible player but he's on the wane now imo. I think Baird would have been getting those starts if he hadn't gotten injured.

bayern

Interested Observer wrote: »

Tend to agree, Big Dev has been an incredible player but he's on the wane now imo. I think Baird would have been getting those starts if he hadn't gotten injured.

Baird would be with ireland if he hadn't got injured.

molloyjh

bayern wrote: »

would like to see some more risks been taken in selection... starting both Fardy and Toner at this level is overkill... give a young lock a start.

Dan Sheehan at 2 and a young 9 starting would be good to see.

That was only Fardys second start of the season. The "give the young lads a go" shtick is not something that can be used at Leinster. We give plenty of young lads a shot. Sure isn't Baird on the verge of an Ireland cap at 21 because we give the young lads a shot? But we also need to balance up the development aspect with the experience and leadership aspect.

A third of the starting XV were 25 or under, and when you look at the 23 as a whole that age group accounted for over 50% of the match day squad. A third of the starting XV were 30 or over, with that translating as just over 20% of the match day squad. In the 23 there were more guys aged 25 or under than aged over 25. Theres no harm having some experience there to guide players, especially when the midfield 10-12-13 were 21, 22 and 21 respectively.

bayern

molloyjh wrote: »

That was only Fardys second start of the season. The "give the young lads a go" shtick is not something that can be used at Leinster. We give plenty of young lads a shot. Sure isn't Baird on the verge of an Ireland cap at 21 because we give the young lads a shot? But we also need to balance up the development aspect with the experience and leadership aspect.

A third of the starting XV were 25 or under, and when you look at the 23 as a whole that age group accounted for over 50% of the match day squad. A third of the starting XV were 30 or over, with that translating as just over 20% of the match day squad. In the 23 there were more guys aged 25 or under than aged over 25. Theres no harm having some experience there to guide players, especially when the midfield 10-12-13 were 21, 22 and 21 respectively.

Leinster are thrashing teams, they can be a bit more risky in their selection especially at home.

Have experience on the bench so that if the risk in starting a young lock, hooker or 9 backfires they can be replaced.

Only 1 member of the starting pack was a young player(Penny), the majority were in their 30's... certainly scope for riskier selection there.

bayern

Would this team have lost last night?

1. Dooley(26)
2. Sheehan(22)
3. Bent(34)
4. Fardy(35)
5. Dunne(21)
6. Leavy(26)
7. Penny(21)
8. Ruddock(30)
9. HOS(22)
10. Byrne(21)
11. Kearney(31)
12. Frawley(22)
13. Turner(21)
14. Kelleher(26)
15. JOB(23)
16. Tracy(29)
17. Milne(21)
18. Parker(25)
19. Molony(26)
20. Murphy(25)
21. McGrath(27)
22. Hawkshaw(21)
23. Baird(21)

aloooof

You need to balance that with getting guys up to speed for the upcoming Champions Cup games too, tho. (And with only 4 "group" games, there's less margin for error).

thomond2006

30 points from 30 and still there's complaining. Sheesh.

salmocab

thomond2006 wrote: »

30 points from 30 and still there's complaining. Sheesh.

We should get a bonus bonus point

bayern

Leinster Academy update

LH Prop
Michael Milne(21/Birr RFC-Roscrea/UCD) - 1 start, 3 sub apps.
--
Marcus Hanan(20/Clane RFC/Old Belvedere) - leinster 7's
Jack Boyle(18/Michaels/UCD) - leinster 7's

TH Prop
Tom Clarkson(20/Blackrock/DUFC) - 2 sub apps.
--
Bobby Sheehan(20/Clongowes/UCD)
Ben Griffin(19/Castleknock/DUFC)

Hooker
John McKee(20/Campbell/Old Belvedere) - injured
--
Lee Barron(19/Michaels/DUFC) - leinster 7's

Lock
Charlie Ryan(21/Blackrock/UCD)
Brian Deeny(20/Wexford RFC/Clontarf) - injured
Joe McCarthy(19/Blackrock/DUFC) - leinster 7's

Backrow
Martin Moloney(21/Athy RFC/Clontarf) - injured
Sean O’Brien(20/Blackrock/UCD) - injured
Alex Soroka(19/Belvedere/Clontarf) - leinster 7's
--
Mark Hernan(20/Michaels/Lansdowne)
Will Hickey(19/Michaels/UCD)

Scrumhalf
Patrick Patterson(21/Blackrock/UCD) - leinster 7's
Cormac Foley(21/St. Gerards/Lansdowne)
--
Rob Gilsenan(19/Michaels/UCD)

Outhalf
David Hawkshaw(21/Belvedere/Clontarf) - 3 sub apps.
--
Tim Corkery(18/Kilkenny RFC/UCD)
Charlie Tector(18/Kilkenny/Lansdowne) - leinster 7's

Centre
Liam Turner(21/Blackrock/DUFC) - 2 starts, 1 sub app.
--
Marcus Kiely(19/Newbridge/Naas) - leinster 7's
Karl Martin(18/Boyne RFC/Old Belvedere) - leinster 7's

Back Three
Michael Silvester(22/Clongowes/DUFC) - 1 sub app
Aaron O’Sullivan(20/Exile/Blackrock) - irish 7's
Max O’Reilly(20/St. Gerards/DUFC) - injured
Niall Comerford(20/Blackrock/UCD) - leinster 7's
Andrew Smith(20/Michaels/Clontarf) - injured
--
Jamie Osborne(19/Naas RFC/Naas) - leinster 7's
Chris Cosgrave(19/Michaels/UCD) - leinster 7's
Josh O'Connor(19/Wexford RFC/UCD)

Yeah_Right

Great to see Leavy back and in form. My favourite Irish player of recent years. Looking forward to seeing him playing in the 6 Nations.

The more I see of Frawley at 12, the more I like it.

arsebiscuits1

Watched the game again there. Leinster were good without being fantastic but stuck to a well worked game plan.

As has been the case with a few game this season, just let the pack do the damage and take the opportunities that inevitably present themselves.

Unusually for Leinster. Very few of our tries came off launch plays from set piece. It was our counter attack that got us the most change.

It must be said, none of our front 5 had an overly good game. This makes it all the more embarrassing for Edinburgh to ship 50 points without the oppositions engine room really getting out of 3rd gear.

Tracy was busy as was Dooley getting us reasonably consistent front foot ball.

Ruddock was quieter this week with carrying also. Got his hands reliably dirty with pick and goes but didn't offer himself off 9 as much as we've seen recently.

Penny is again putting together the type of performances that you'd expect from a seasoned pro, not a barely 21 year old on his 18th senior game. He is very consistent and his appetite for work is phenomenal. Add that to his impressive ball handing ability and you've got a real quality player

I can't help but beam at the thought of Dan finding his flow again. He showed glimpses of why he was the standout backrow in Europe before his injury. His ball carrying his just so effective. He managed to beat a defender while being tackled by a different player, just effortlessly shrugged him off. He took the lions share of restarts and found a soft shoulder every single time.

His involvement leading up to Leinsters first try was just all action with several key involvements from him

He gets a lovely lift of Dev as tailgunner for the lineout forcing the Edinburgh mistake. He swiftly covers over 80 meters to get to the breakdown and get a clean steal (ably assisted by Penny here displaying the work rate I alluded to). He carries away having poached, sells a subtle dummy to the second defender while hitting the soft shoulder of the first defender ensuring significant front foot ball. Reloads straight to his feet to accept the pass from McGrath, pivots to Jimmy who nudges a lovely ball for DK to score.

That happened all over 30 seconds.

Luke looks like he's benefitted from consistent rugby over the last few weeks. Confidence looks to be returning. 2 good tries will help him in spades. Still has that tendency to lose connection to his pack and give them passes they can't run on to. He was a lucky boy for that deliberate knock on though. I think the ref got that one wrong. Edi player went for it with both hands and was just unlucky. Luke had him beat on the outside though a few steps before that pass was made. Wouldn't have even needed a dummy, the Edi player was always going for the intercept

Byrne and Frawley played very well off each other. They seem to have a real connection and are willing to rely on each other. With Frawley kicking off the tee I assume he's going at 10 on Sunday.

Jimmy O'Brien needs to take a bow. He just doesn't make mistakes. He arguably gets better the more pressure he's put under. 2 fantastic try assists by releasing a pass a split second before getting hit. His decision making is so refined and his tactical kicking is a real asset to us.

I am yet to see a notable weakness in his game. His high ball ability is top drawer, he is lightning quick and a great broken field runner, the passing ability and general handing is fantastic, kicking game goes from strength to strength and a technically good defender to boot. He will be bashing down the door for European minutes if he keeps these performances up.

I would like to have seen a better passing game from our back line though. We had a lot of passes thrown where the receiver had to check their run. We wont get nearly as much change as we did against a better defensive line. On example was after Pennys break and offload. We spread the ball and had a 3 on 1. Frawley, Jimmy and Turner all made passes where the receiver had to check their run leaving Kelleher having to cut back in. Ultimately it was inconsequential as Leavy scored after a few pick and goes. But those chances need to be taken 10 times out of 10 against better opposition

OneLungDavy

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Watched the game again there. Leinster were good without being fantastic but stuck to a well worked game plan.

As has been the case with a few game this season, just let the pack do the damage and take the opportunities that inevitably present themselves.

Unusually for Leinster. Very few of our tries came off launch plays from set piece. It was our counter attack that got us the most change.

It must be said, none of our front 5 had an overly good game. This makes it all the more embarrassing for Edinburgh to ship 50 points without the oppositions engine room really getting out of 3rd gear.

Tracy was busy as was Dooley getting us reasonably consistent front foot ball.

Ruddock was quieter this week with carrying also. Got his hands reliably dirty with pick and goes but didn't offer himself off 9 as much as we've seen recently.

Penny is again putting together the type of performances that you'd expect from a seasoned pro, not a barely 21 year old on his 18th senior game. He is very consistent and his appetite for work is phenomenal. Add that to his impressive ball handing ability and you've got a real quality player

I can't help but beam at the thought of Dan finding his flow again. He showed glimpses of why he was the standout backrow in Europe before his injury. His ball carrying his just so effective. He managed to beat a defender while being tackled by a different player, just effortlessly shrugged him off. He took the lions share of restarts and found a soft shoulder every single time.

His involvement leading up to Leinsters first try was just all action with several key involvements from him

He gets a lovely lift of Dev as tailgunner for the lineout forcing the Edinburgh mistake. He swiftly covers over 80 meters to get to the breakdown and get a clean steal (ably assisted by Penny here displaying the work rate I alluded to). He carries away having poached, sells a subtle dummy to the second defender while hitting the soft shoulder of the first defender ensuring significant front foot ball. Reloads straight to his feet to accept the pass from McGrath, pivots to Jimmy who nudges a lovely ball for DK to score.

That happened all over 30 seconds.

Luke looks like he's benefitted from consistent rugby over the last few weeks. Confidence looks to be returning. 2 good tries will help him in spades. Still has that tendency to lose connection to his pack and give them passes they can't run on to. He was a lucky boy for that deliberate knock on though. I think the ref got that one wrong. Edi player went for it with both hands and was just unlucky. Luke had him beat on the outside though a few steps before that pass was made. Wouldn't have even needed a dummy, the Edi player was always going for the intercept

Byrne and Frawley played very well off each other. They seem to have a real connection and are willing to rely on each other. With Frawley kicking off the tee I assume he's going at 10 on Sunday.

Jimmy O'Brien needs to take a bow. He just doesn't make mistakes. He arguably gets better the more pressure he's put under. 2 fantastic try assists by releasing a pass a split second before getting hit. His decision making is so refined and his tactical kicking is a real asset to us.

I am yet to see a notable weakness in his game. His high ball ability is top drawer, he is lightning quick and a great broken field runner, the passing ability and general handing is fantastic, kicking game goes from strength to strength and a technically good defender to boot. He will be bashing down the door for European minutes if he keeps these performances up.

I would like to have seen a better passing game from our back line though. We had a lot of passes thrown where the receiver had to check their run. We wont get nearly as much change as we did against a better defensive line. On example was after Pennys break and offload. We spread the ball and had a 3 on 1. Frawley, Jimmy and Turner all made passes where the receiver had to check their run leaving Kelleher having to cut back in. Ultimately it was inconsequential as Leavy scored after a few pick and goes. But those chances need to be taken 10 times out of 10 against better opposition

Quality write-up. JO'B has, sort-of, come out of nowhere. He's 24 now, I know he's had some appearance in previous seasons but I'm wondering what has slowed down his progress, he seems to have a lot of quality.

arsebiscuits1

OneLungDavy wrote: »

Quality write-up. JO'B has, sort-of, come out of nowhere. He's 24 now, I know he's had some appearance in previous seasons but I'm wondering what has slowed down his progress, he seems to have a lot of quality.

JOB would have been reasonably rated at U20s. He was on that U20s dream team with Porter, Ryan, Stockdale, Keenan etc.

He did a 2 year stint in the sevens program which has undoubtedly contributed to his development and probably a reason why he's gone reasonably under the radar

bayern

OneLungDavy wrote: »

Quality write-up. JO'B has, sort-of, come out of nowhere. He's 24 now, I know he's had some appearance in previous seasons but I'm wondering what has slowed down his progress, he seems to have a lot of quality.

He was playing 7's and also was viewed as a centre.. he only started playing 15 in the last 18 or so months and not consistently until this season.

Buer

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

JOB would have been reasonably rated at U20s. He was on that U20s dream team with Porter, Ryan, Stockdale, Keenan etc.

He did a 2 year stint in the sevens program which has undoubtedly contributed to his development and probably a reason why he's gone reasonably under the radar

The hands and that grubber in particular had a real sense of 7s rugby about them.

With that said, watching that grubber try again this morning, Edinburgh were exceptionally passive and just stood 2-3m off him waiting for him to do something.

arsebiscuits1

Buer wrote: »

The hands and that grubber in particular had a real sense of 7s rugby about them.

With that said, watching that grubber try again this morning, Edinburgh were exceptionally passive and just stood 2-3m off him waiting for him to do something.

Definitely needed to get off the line. But they all did just have to back track 70 meters down the pitch. They didn't look like the fittest team at the best of times yesterday.

Buer

bayern wrote: »

Would this team have lost last night?

No but I'd imagine there's a rationale for such selections and we're not privvy to them. For example, I wouldn't pair up HOS and Harry Byrne unless necessary. It's not really going to benefit the development of either. HOS is going to be under pressure to deliver playing inside a novice outhalf who isn't going to be giving him much direction. HB is going to play outside a novice scrum half who is going to take very little responsibility off him and will provide him with lower quality ball. HB with Luke McGrath or HOS with Ross Byrne would be my preference.

I'm sure they'll start a game together at some point this season (possibly next week, even) but I wouldn't see it high on the list of priorities when we've two scrum halves capable of playing test rugby who are 27 and 28 respectively.

In relation to Sheehan, he got 30 minutes of rugby last night which is fine for him at this point. There are other mouths to feed and Tracy has looked good. They'll want him up to speed in December and January when there's going to be a run of 7 consecutive matches of either an interpro or European fixture. There's a strong chance Tracy starts a couple of those games at least. The line out has been a problem at times so I fully understand them wanting to partner him up with some guys who he'll be throwing to on those occasions. Sheahan has had at least 25 minutes for the last 4 weekends (including a start) so is getting consistent game time.

I'd certainly like to see a change made in the second row. I'm not sure there's much benefit to starting the two wise old men together when there's a relatively experienced pack already in place. I don't think Fardy should have been retained for this season and he's looking 36 years old out there now.

We're in week 6 now and I'm not sure if there's a single player in the senior squad who is not with Ireland, fit and hasn't had at least 2 appearances (not sure if Osborne is fit) which is quite an achievement at this stage.

Throw in Milne, Clarkson, Turner, Hawkshaw and Silvester all having been involved from the academy also and I think there's plenty of development happening.

bayern

Osborne is fit and available.