Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

sydthebeat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lXo1Lw_93w

Yep, takes it sideways and is too slow

KaneToad

We have three world class players in Ireland right now. All happen to be Leinster players - James Ryan & Garry Ringrose & Tadgh Furlong.

Suggestions that Ringrose won't be the Leinster or Ireland 13 is madness....I think(!)

TRC10

sydthebeat wrote: »

hummmmmm

how do you make that out?

Aki and Ringrose started the first game against Scotland (henshaw was injured)
Farrell and Ringrose started v Japan (Aki and Henshaw injured)
Aki and Ringrose v Russia

Henshaw and Ringrose v New Zealand (Aki suspended)

the only game that Aki and Henshaw started was the trouncing of samoa (ringrose rested)


in the warm up games Aki and Ringrose started away in england, easily the toughest warm up game.
Farrell and Ringrose started the first game against Italy
Aki / Farrell wales 1st game

the only game Aki / Henshaw started was the 2nd wales game


so in 9 RWC associated games in 2019, Aki and henshaw only started 2 of them...

hardly enough to claim they were the coaches first choice starting pair.

The only games where all 3 were fit, Aki and Henshaw started both. Both important games with more or less full strength teams. There you go.

sydthebeat

TRC10 wrote: »

The only games where all 3 were fit, Aki and Henshaw started both. There you go.

The ones where ringrose was flogged beforehand and rested......

But you go on thinking whatever you want

TRC10

sydthebeat wrote: »

The ones where ringrose was flogged beforehand and rested......

But you go on thinking whatever you want

Thinking whatever I want? What's that supposed to mean?

I dont have an agenda against any players and I dont think what I "want" to think, I think what I see.

sydthebeat

TRC10 wrote: »

Thinking whatever I want? What's that supposed to mean?

I dont have an agenda against any players and I dont think what I "want" to think, I think what I see.

So ringrose starting the most difficult warm up game, and starting what was supposed to be the crunch pool game (Scotland) is no indication to you that he was first choice center.

But because Henshaw and aki started the last warm up game together (with pre agreed line ups with gatland) that's enough for you to think they were schmidts preferred partnership


Is that what your saying?

TRC10

sydthebeat wrote: »

So ringrose starting the most difficult warm up game, and starting what was supposed to be the crunch pool game (Scotland) is no indication to you that he was first choice center.

But because Henshaw and aki started the last warm up game together (with pre agreed line ups with gatland) that's enough for you to think they were schmidts preferred partnership


Is that what your saying?

Henshaw was injured for both of those games (as you previously stated). Of course I dont know for sure that Aki and Henshaw was the first choice, no more than you know that Ringrose was first choice. All I know is that the only game where all 3 were fit, Aki and Henshaw started. Maybe ringrose was rested v Samoa. It's just my opinion based on performances prior to and during the WC and from what I saw, that Aki and Henshaw was his preferred combo. You're entitled to disagree obviously. But comments like "go on thinking whatever you want" come across as a bit rude when someone is just expressing a different opinion.

molloyjh

TRC10 wrote: »

Thinking whatever I want? What's that supposed to mean?

I dont have an agenda against any players and I dont think what I "want" to think, I think what I see.

You're not exactly analysing the selections as much as you are ignoring info that doesnt suit to back up a statement you made previously. Ringrose is our first choice 13. I'm baffled as to why anyone would think otherwise. We are looking to put width on the ball and develop play makers. Why would any of Aki, Henshaw or Farrell be ahead of Ringrose at 13 in that scenario? None of them are particularly creative or particularly good in terms of their distribution. It would make no sense for anyone other than Ringrose to be first choice. None.

sydthebeat

TRC10 wrote: »

...... Of course I dont know for sure that Aki and Henshaw was the first choice......

That's quite a row back from your previous assertion that they were Schmidt first choice.

Glad you've cleared that up though

TRC10

molloyjh wrote: »

You're not exactly analysing the selections as much as you are ignoring info that doesnt suit to back up a statement you made previously. Ringrose is our first choice 13. I'm baffled as to why anyone would think otherwise. We are looking to put width on the ball and develop play makers. Why would any of Aki, Henshaw or Farrell be ahead of Ringrose at 13 in that scenario? None of them are particularly creative or particularly good in terms of their distribution. It would make no sense for anyone other than Ringrose to be first choice. None.

I never said that Ringrose wasnt our first choice 13. The 2 points I made were

A-Ringrose (who hasn't played 80 minutes of test match rugby in over a year) isnt our "first name on the team sheet"

And B-Ringrose wasn't Joe Schmidts first choice
13 going into the world cup (He would have been my first choice btw).

I think Ringrose should be in the team when fit. I never disputed that. But I think the praise hes getting here is a bit OTT. World class players change games. And he didn't change any games when we were getting trounced by England x2, wales and NZ last year. That being said, I do think he's our best 13. I think you may have been a bit confused as to what my point was.

TRC10

sydthebeat wrote: »

That's quite a row back from your previous assertion that they were Schmidt first choice.

Glad you've cleared that up though

Yeah, conveniently leave out 95% of my post there. I know no more than you what goes on in Joe Schmidts mind. Theres valid arguments to be made for both points. Anyway, I think we should agree to disagree on that.

arsebiscuits1

Garda Kenny wrote: »

The problem with Ringrose is his build and that he takes the ball going sideways more often than not. He tends to get swallowed up when playing against the Sarries and England’s. He is fairly slight and not particularly fast. Having said that he is a world class reader of the game and scores tries from it and defends the 13 channel better than anyone we have in that position. If he didn’t do those slaloming runs around the back of rucks taking his supporting players out of the game he would be better for it. But the hype is a bit much much - he’s a solid player if unspectacular.

Queue backlash from overly defensive people. He shouldn’t be above critical analysis and there are areas he can improve his game.

Please don't consider this backlash. This is just a simple correction to complete misinformation.

Ringrose is absolutely rapid. Consistently beats players with pure pace and anecdotally has been referred to by team mates as one of the fastest in the squad.

And you are correct no one should be above critical analysis including him. But you also can't consider your statement critical analysis as you've offered no evidence to back up your theory. Nor have you offered any comparisons.

Ringrose isn't overly slight. He's tall and comfortably in the mid 90 kg range. Easily enough. He's similar to the likes of Conrad smith whose one of the finest 13s of the last decade. He's also similar to the new Aussie center Jordan Petaia. And also Ryan Crotty. Another stand out 13 from the last few years

There are a lot of cases where skill and speed beats bulk. Ringrose is a great example of such

sydthebeat

TRC10 wrote: »

Yeah, conveniently leave out 95% of my post there. I know no more than you what goes on in Joe Schmidts mind. Theres valid arguments to be made for both points. Anyway, I think we should agree to disagree on that.

The difference is I never made any claims about Joe's preferences.

But we'll disagree, which is fine.

TRC10

sydthebeat wrote: »

The difference is I never made any claims about Joe's preferences.

But we'll disagree, which is fine.

Well you did, you said ringrose was first choice

sydthebeat

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Please don't consider this backlash. This is just a simple correction to complete misinformation.

Ringrose is absolutely rapid. Consistently beats players with pure pace and anecdotally has been referred to by team mates as one of the fastest in the squad.

People forget that his first few Ireland caps were on the wing.

You don't get to play test rugby on the wing if youre slow

TRC10

sydthebeat wrote: »

People forget that his first few Ireland caps were on the wing.

You don't get to play test rugby on the wing if youre slow

No they weren't, his first few Leinster caps were. Ringrose never played wing for Ireland

Interested Observer

TRC10 wrote: »

Yeah, conveniently leave out 95% of my post there. I know no more than you what goes on in Joe Schmidts mind. Theres valid arguments to be made for both points. Anyway, I think we should agree to disagree on that.

I don't know why I'm bothering to engage with this infantile nonsense but I'm copying and pasting something you said on the previous page:

"But theres an argument to be made that Aki and Henshaw is our best partnership. And that was Schmidt's first choice pairing going into the world cup"

So can you read Schmidt's mind or not?

arsebiscuits1

sydthebeat wrote: »

People forget that his first few Ireland caps were on the wing.

You don't get to play test rugby on the wing if youre slow

They actually weren't. He was 13 and on one occasion 12 in his first year (and also 23 against all blacks in Chicago but he didn't get on)

He may have covered but he's never started on the wing internationally.

His breakout for Leinster was on the wing though with his first 4 caps at 11 or 14.

But it doesn't take away from the fact he's absolutely rapid. I reckon there's maybe 4/5 senior Leinster players quicker than him.

sydthebeat

TRC10 wrote: »

No they weren't, his first few Leinster caps were. Ringrose never played wing for Ireland

Wrong

He actually played on the wing two weeks in a row for Ireland.

Not hard to find that info

arsebiscuits1

sydthebeat wrote: »

Wrong

He actually played on the wing two weeks in a row for Ireland.

Not hard to find that info

Unfortunately buddy i don't think you're correct here

https://www.irishrugby.ie/player/garry-ringrose/

TRC10

Interested Observer wrote: »

I don't know why I'm bothering to engage with this infantile nonsense but I'm copying and pasting something you said on the previous page:

"But theres an argument to be made that Aki and Henshaw is our best partnership. And that was Schmidt's first choice pairing going into the world cup"

So can you read Schmidt's mind or not?

No, and I never claimed to be able to.

Perhaps i should begin every post with "It is my opinion that..." so as to avoid confusion.

sydthebeat

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Unfortunately buddy i don't think you're correct here

https://www.irishrugby.ie/player/garry-ringrose/

To be clear, I never said he started.

He came off the bench against Wales on 7th Sept 2019 onto the wing. He was in the 23 shirt

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/arid-30949753.html%3ftype=amp

arsebiscuits1

sydthebeat wrote: »

To be clear, I never said he started.

He came off the bench against Wales on 7th Sept 2019 onto the wing. He was in the 23 shirt

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/arid-30949753.html%3ftype=amp

No but you did say his first few caps for Ireland were on the wing so that's what I was clearing up.

I'd have been shocked if he didn't cover it on a few occasions as he's quite versatile

sydthebeat

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

No but you did say his first few caps for Ireland were on the wing so that's what I was clearing up.

I'd have been shocked if he didn't cover it on a few occasions as he's quite versatile

Yeah I remember him on the wing in green, but I probably was getting the fact he started with leinster on the wing mixed up.

The point being anyway that he's not a slow player by any stretch of the imagination

foxyladyxx

Is the Leinster thread always this scintillating? :rolleyes:

Garda Kenny

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Please don't consider this backlash. This is just a simple correction to complete misinformation.

Ringrose is absolutely rapid. Consistently beats players with pure pace and anecdotally has been referred to by team mates as one of the fastest in the squad.

And you are correct no one should be above critical analysis including him. But you also can't consider your statement critical analysis as you've offered no evidence to back up your theory. Nor have you offered any comparisons.

Ringrose isn't overly slight. He's tall and comfortably in the mid 90 kg range. Easily enough. He's similar to the likes of Conrad smith whose one of the finest 13s of the last decade. He's also similar to the new Aussie center Jordan Petaia. And also Ryan Crotty. Another stand out 13 from the last few years

There are a lot of cases where skill and speed beats bulk. Ringrose is a great example of such

I was only thinking of comparing him to his relatively recent predecessor Brian O Driscoll. I don’t see Ringrose beating players in one on ones like ODriscoll did. By that I mean his speed over the first 5-10 metres. He is probably fast once he gets going but not fast enough to step and go around players like O D did

In terms of comparisons to other world class 13’s I take your point their weight and height weren’t a problem for them. But the game has evolved. I’m not saying I’m in favour of having Bundee Akis and Tuilagis I prefer the Slade type of player or Ringrose. It’s just sometimes skill is engulfed by size.

Anyway I re read my post and it was on second reading a bit overly critical. I didn’t mean it to be I meant it to show that there are areas he can work on. Speed over the first 5-10 metres being one and not running across the pitch the second.

Dave_The_Sheep

Of all the things to criticise Ringrose for, not being able to step or go around players is really odd. He does it all the time.

Garda Kenny

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Of all the things to criticise Ringrose for, not being able to step or go around players is really odd. He does it all the time.

He spots gaps and goes through them but doesn’t stand up players like O Driscoll did. Not on the percentage of times he goes for breaks. He is often caught going on a wide arc and tackled. In fact I think it’s only a matter of a year or two before Tommy O Brien really pushes and replaces him at 13. I think his place will be under serious pressure soon. Anyway it’s getting late for a debate on this point. We’ll agree to disagree

arsebiscuits1

Garda Kenny wrote: »

I was only thinking of comparing him to his relatively recent predecessor Brian O Driscoll. I don’t see Ringrose beating players in one on ones like ODriscoll did. By that I mean his speed over the first 5-10 metres. He is probably fast once he gets going but not fast enough to step and go around players like O D did

In terms of comparisons to other world class 13’s I take your point their weight and height weren’t a problem for them. But the game has evolved. I’m not saying I’m in favour of having Bundee Akis and Tuilagis I prefer the Slade type of player or Ringrose. It’s just sometimes skill is engulfed by size.

Anyway I re read my post and it was on second reading a bit overly critical. I didn’t mean it to be I meant it to show that there are areas he can work on. Speed over the first 5-10 metres being one and not running across the pitch the second.

BOD is one of the greatest but pace is never something I'd associate for him. Certainly not after ~2003

Ringrose ability to beat defenders one on one is probably better than BODs ever was. Especially since Ringrose frequently does it against much more regimented defences. If you're willing to say the "game has moved on" as you do then you need to take into account that the defensive abilities of teams has gotten incomparably better.

And size over skill has always been an issue, especially in the 2007-2012 ish era. But it is less the norm now than it ever was. There are countless more examples of smaller skillful players emerging at the top level. Given it is a contact sport we will never escape from big heavy guys succeeding but there has never been more scope in the last 15 years for players actively not trying to max out their body weight and keep their pace.

Being honest though. It comes down to the player. I'd probably be initially more comfortable seeing a center tog out for us who weights over 100kgs. But Garry has never let us down in blue or green is never is found wanting physically. And even if he doesn't bash over the gainline running off 9 as much as others, his point of difference is still much higher than what his peers bring

arsebiscuits1

Garda Kenny wrote: »

He spots gaps and goes through them but doesn’t stand up players like O Driscoll did. Not on the percentage of times he goes for breaks. He is often caught going on a wide arc and tackled. In fact I think it’s only a matter of a year or two before Tommy O Brien really pushes and replaces him at 13. I think his place will be under serious pressure soon. Anyway it’s getting late for a debate on this point. We’ll agree to disagree

Mate you can't take the high road here. You've offered zero evidence to back up what is a pretty dubious claim.

Ringrose either is faster than BOD ever was or he wasn't. He either is better at beating defenders or he isn't.

Back up your claim here.

But I can tell you with certainty that Garrys top end speed is quicker than BOD ever was. His step is much better.

BOD brought both a superiour intellect matched by very few of his era and an even better ability to execute it

You're reaching mate. Accept it and move on.

Also, if you're so worried about Garrys size why are you so hopeful about Tommy? They're physiques are extremely similar. Tommy is arguably slighter than Garry was at that age