Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

Garda Kenny

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Mate you can't take the high road here. You've offered zero evidence to back up what is a pretty dubious claim.

Ringrose either is faster than BOD ever was or he wasn't. He either is better at beating defenders or he isn't.

Back up your claim here.

But I can tell you with certainty that Garrys top end speed is quicker than BOD ever was. His step is much better.

BOD brought both a superiour intellect matched by very few of his era and an even better ability to execute it

You're reaching mate. Accept it and move on.

Also, if you're so worried about Garrys size why are you so hopeful about Tommy? They're physiques are extremely similar. Tommy is arguably slighter than Garry was at that age

Sure I can give you examples but there is no point in picking out moments in a game to highlight a players errors. The players game should be looked at in full and by and large Ringrose has fantastic games overall. I’m picking out areas he can improve upon and sometimes against good defences the space just isn’t there. Don’t ask me slate a player to highlight certain points in games just to back up my point. He sometimes takes an arc and doesn’t get around a defender - not the end of the world. But wouldn’t it be nice if he varied direct lines with arking ones? He’s the best centre we have but there are times I throw my eyes up thinking he has taken the wrong option or the ball into traffic at the wrong time.

bayern

The match day 23 from the weekend came through the Montpellier game with no issues and are expected to train as normal this week with Scott Fardy’s knee injury not considered serious.

Johnny Sexton was a late withdrawal from the match day 23 against Montpellier as his dead leg tightened after the captain’s run on Friday evening at GGL Stadium. He will be further assessed this week before a final decision is made on his inclusion.

Garry Ringrose is in the final stages of his recovery from a jaw injury and will be further assessed over the week before a final decision is made.

Unfortunately there was bad news for centre Conor O’Brien who injured his ACL last week in training and is due to have a procedure as a result.

There was no new update on the following players who all remain unavailable for selection:

Ed Byrne (calf), James Lowe (groin), Tadhg Furlong (calf), Tommy O’Brien (ankle), Jack Conan (neck), Max Deegan (knee), Jordan Larmour (shoulder), Vakh Abdaladze (back) and Adam Byrne (hamstring).

Clegg

That's a disaster for COB. According to the Leinster website his last appearance was on 4/10/19. By the time he returns the current season will probably be finished. So he's looking at two years out through injury.

bayern

Clegg wrote: »

That's a disaster for COB. According to the Leinster website his last appearance was on 4/10/19. By the time he returns the current season will probably be finished. So he's looking at two years out through injury.

he'd missed out on time too due to covid break.. he was almost ready to play in Feb.

arsebiscuits1

Watched the Montpellier game back. 5 tries away in France is a decent return no matter who you're playing. Given it's only the top 4 teams from each pool going through every single point counts. You only need to look at Munster failing to get a TBP and they're currently 5th in their pool.

Montpellier in truth looked a very poorly coached side and Leinster would be well capable of tacking another 20 on the scoreboard. They just looked to physically dominate and when Leinster did not let that happen, they had no answer. The only time they looked like scoring was in the 78th minute when they did. Even with their big line break in the first half, Leinsters scramble was excellent and the threat was nullified very quickly even if the offload went to hand.

From a team perspective, it was immensely pleasing to see Leinsters maul function as well as it did. This is an area I have been underwhelmed by in recent years but we completely nullified Montpelliers maul and got the shove on well on our ball. Clearly was an area of focus the last few weeks. The scrum being rock solid too really was a plus also.

Individually, I have to start with Rhys. This is the best rugby of his career he is playing. Genuinely a jaw droppingly good performance. Top carrier with 16 (Dooley second with a notable 13). It's rare to see a player keep the contact on their terms even when seemingly losing the initial collision. He just is able to manipulate his body position or footwork to win the meter every time. Add this to him absolutely smashing Montpellier players left right and center. Easiest player of the match decision in history I'd wager.

Each member of the pack was excellent and it would be hard to justify a rotation next week (I would like to see Baird start though) Front row were all great and performed as well or better than their international counterparts who replaced them. Shout out to Bent who on his 3rd European start (3rd!!!!!) carried, scrummaged, rucked and tackled like the player we now expect him to be. Given how much stick he got in his earlier years to be putting together those types of performances away in Europe at nearly 35 is just great to see.

Shout out to Leavy too. He sets himself apart from his peers by great decision making executed to a very high standard. Showed it for his try but also for his holding up of the Montpellier player. I can't remember seeing a ball held up that well. He had no right to make that.

Also Ryan Baird can now add that huge old school dump tackle on his own 5 line to reasons why I think he's class.

Henshaw easily was our pick of the backs. He just rarely has a no show when he plays in blue. So much of what Leinster do well come down to a huge involvement from him. His passing was great, he had an excellent touch finder in their half, he rekindled his FB skills with some dominant aerial moments and as ever the contacts were on his terms in attack and defence. He was as physical as ever. Robbie really is a superb player and we are lucky to have him. I do wish we saw him more in blue.

Luke was very good too. I like his physicality. There is something reassuring about him being on the pitch as you know he wont let you down defensively. He made 8 tackles which is more than any of the starting front 5 made. Again, I would like his passing to be more consistently accurate but he did seem to improve it yesterday. I thought it was a travesty that he "didn't call the mark in time". He called it immediately which is within the laws. It states nothing about taking it out of the field of play. Poor officiating there for me in an otherwise strong performance from the referee.

Ross was ok. Kicking wasn't tremendous and his decision making wasn't overly good but overall he steered the ship home well. I don't think he was helped by Montpellier venturing half a step offside outside 10 as frequently as they did.

Probably wasn't the most stern test that Jimmy will be exposed to in Europe but great to see he can bring the calm assurance and penchant to do everything right at the next level. I really think Larmour will need to be nervous about his spot as Jimmy is showing all the attributes of a 15 we can't leave out of the team.

The flip side of all the positives is a bug bear of mine all season. Passing accuracy. Perhaps Leinster are trying to play a such a high pace that the passes are suffering but we have multiple chances go abegging every game due to receivers checking their run.

We had 2 launch plays off clean lineout ball not amount to anything due to this. Winning a lineout cleanly in the middle 3rd of the pitch is Leinsters bread and butter for creating try scoring opportunities. Toward the end of the first half we had an excellent throw to the back taken by Fardy. We even got the jump on Montpellier as their defensive line didn't react to the ball going over the 15m that quick. 3 passes in a row each one forced the receiver to check their run and it resulted in Keenan running out of room and the move breaking down. There were 2 similar examples in the second half off scrum and lineout. Needs improving.

The lineout itself wasn't great. 5 lost. One we were outjumped, one Tracy threw crooked, one we didn't get a jumper in the air (Ruddock appeared at fault here), one Luke lost at the front and one overthrow that we recovered (thinking about it now this might be the same example as the one with no jump?) We clearly identified that Montpellier were going to target us and the throws to the front mostly came off well. Pretty shocking from Montpellier to let an opposition get away with that more than once.

Overall a very good performance. Similar to Lyon last year we backed ourselves to just defend against a very blunt attack once we built the lead. I can't imagine there are overly tired bodies in the Leinster camp this morning

arsebiscuits1

Also 2 asides.

The broadcast was an absolute travesty. The match director either got overly artsy with their angles or they had no concept on how a rugby game should be broadcast. Either way it was a slap in the face to all those paying a premium to watch these games. I am rarely that guy but I felt compelled to write to EPCR about this.

The tight angles were far too tight and they constantly transitioned to a non standard angle so the immersion into the game was completely lost. Seriously hope we aren't subjected to that tripe again.

Secondly, seeing Altrad holding a lit cigar in the stands was an utter disgrace. I don't care if it's your stadium buddy and I don't care that no fans are in it, that's a shocking message to send out. In a country where tobacco and alcohol advertising is banned it just smacks of someone who thinks he is above all that.

arsebiscuits1

What a nightmare for COB. Was just coming back from his problematic hamstring wasn't he? Man I feel for that guy

realhorrorshow

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Watched the Montpellier game back. 5 tries away in France is a decent return no matter who you're playing. Given it's only the top 4 teams from each pool going through every single point counts. You only need to look at Munster failing to get a TBP and they're currently 5th in their pool.

Montpellier in truth looked a very poorly coached side and Leinster would be well capable of tacking another 20 on the scoreboard. They just looked to physically dominate and when Leinster did not let that happen, they had no answer. The only time they looked like scoring was in the 78th minute when they did. Even with their big line break in the first half, Leinsters scramble was excellent and the threat was nullified very quickly even if the offload went to hand.

From a team perspective, it was immensely pleasing to see Leinsters maul function as well as it did. This is an area I have been underwhelmed by in recent years but we completely nullified Montpelliers maul and got the shove on well on our ball. Clearly was an area of focus the last few weeks. The scrum being rock solid too really was a plus also.

Individually, I have to start with Rhys. This is the best rugby of his career he is playing. Genuinely a jaw droppingly good performance. Top carrier with 16 (Dooley second with a notable 13). It's rare to see a player keep the contact on their terms even when seemingly losing the initial collision. He just is able to manipulate his body position or footwork to win the meter every time. Add this to him absolutely smashing Montpellier players left right and center. Easiest player of the match decision in history I'd wager.

Each member of the pack was excellent and it would be hard to justify a rotation next week (I would like to see Baird start though) Front row were all great and performed as well or better than their international counterparts who replaced them. Shout out to Bent who on his 3rd European start (3rd!!!!!) carried, scrummaged, rucked and tackled like the player we now expect him to be. Given how much stick he got in his earlier years to be putting together those types of performances away in Europe at nearly 35 is just great to see.

Shout out to Leavy too. He sets himself apart from his peers by great decision making executed to a very high standard. Showed it for his try but also for his holding up of the Montpellier player. I can't remember seeing a ball held up that well. He had no right to make that.

Also Ryan Baird can now add that huge old school dump tackle on his own 5 line to reasons why I think he's class.

Henshaw easily was our pick of the backs. He just rarely has a no show when he plays in blue. So much of what Leinster do well come down to a huge involvement from him. His passing was great, he had an excellent touch finder in their half, he rekindled his FB skills with some dominant aerial moments and as ever the contacts were on his terms in attack and defence. He was as physical as ever. Robbie really is a superb player and we are lucky to have him. I do wish we saw him more in blue.

Luke was very good too. I like his physicality. There is something reassuring about him being on the pitch as you know he wont let you down defensively. He made 8 tackles which is more than any of the starting front 5 made. Again, I would like his passing to be more consistently accurate but he did seem to improve it yesterday. I thought it was a travesty that he "didn't call the mark in time". He called it immediately which is within the laws. It states nothing about taking it out of the field of play. Poor officiating there for me in an otherwise strong performance from the referee.

Ross was ok. Kicking wasn't tremendous and his decision making wasn't overly good but overall he steered the ship home well. I don't think he was helped by Montpellier venturing half a step offside outside 10 as frequently as they did.

Probably wasn't the most stern test that Jimmy will be exposed to in Europe but great to see he can bring the calm assurance and penchant to do everything right at the next level. I really think Larmour will need to be nervous about his spot as Jimmy is showing all the attributes of a 15 we can't leave out of the team.

The flip side of all the positives is a bug bear of mine all season. Passing accuracy. Perhaps Leinster are trying to play a such a high pace that the passes are suffering but we have multiple chances go abegging every game due to receivers checking their run.

We had 2 launch plays off clean lineout ball not amount to anything due to this. Winning a lineout cleanly in the middle 3rd of the pitch is Leinsters bread and butter for creating try scoring opportunities. Toward the end of the first half we had an excellent throw to the back taken by Fardy. We even got the jump on Montpellier as their defensive line didn't react to the ball going over the 15m that quick. 3 passes in a row each one forced the receiver to check their run and it resulted in Keenan running out of room and the move breaking down. There were 2 similar examples in the second half off scrum and lineout. Needs improving.

The lineout itself wasn't great. 5 lost. One we were outjumped, one Tracy threw crooked, one we didn't get a jumper in the air (Ruddock appeared at fault here), one Luke lost at the front and one overthrow that we recovered (thinking about it now this might be the same example as the one with no jump?) We clearly identified that Montpellier were going to target us and the throws to the front mostly came off well. Pretty shocking from Montpellier to let an opposition get away with that more than once.

Overall a very good performance. Similar to Lyon last year we backed ourselves to just defend against a very blunt attack once we built the lead. I can't imagine there are overly tired bodies in the Leinster camp this morning

Your point re passing accuracy is extremely pertinent and one that applies across Irish rugby as a whole. Often it starts with a pass from 9 that hits the inside shoulder of the outhalf and is compounded with each subsequent pass. A bit harsh to single one guy out but it bewilders me a little that someone as phenomenally talented in pretty much every aspect of the game as Harry Byrne struggles to deliver consistently accurate 7-10 metre passes.

arsebiscuits1

realhorrorshow wrote: »

Your point re passing accuracy is extremely pertinent and one that applies across Irish rugby as a whole. Often it starts with a pass from 9 that hits the inside shoulder of the outhalf and is compounded with each subsequent pass. A bit harsh to single one guy out but it bewilders me a little that someone as phenomenally talented in pretty much every aspect of the game as Harry Byrne struggles to deliver consistently accurate 7-10 metre passes.

It does seem to be the higher the pace the worse the passes. And in fairness that would be expected but should be worked on more

Harry has been a culprit this year where sometimes half of his passes aren't on the money but he is not the only person.

Ross and Luke have both seen it as has Turner, Frawley, Tommy.

Jimmy has probably been one of the more consistent passers this season. Obviously the likes of Ringrose, Sexton and Henshaw tend to rack up much better numbers but obviously we haven't seen as much of them in recent weeks.

Yeah_Right

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Also 2 asides.

The broadcast was an absolute travesty. The match director either got overly artsy with their angles or they had no concept on how a rugby game should be broadcast. Either way it was a slap in the face to all those paying a premium to watch these games. I am rarely that guy but I felt compelled to write to EPCR about this.

The tight angles were far too tight and they constantly transitioned to a non standard angle so the immersion into the game was completely lost. Seriously hope we aren't subjected to that tripe again.

Secondly, seeing Altrad holding a lit cigar in the stands was an utter disgrace. I don't care if it's your stadium buddy and I don't care that no fans are in it, that's a shocking message to send out. In a country where tobacco and alcohol advertising is banned it just smacks of someone who thinks he is above all that.

100% agree with you on the broad cast. I hate watching matches with French directors. They just don't seem to understand how to broadcast a rugby match. Its not uncommon for them to be showing a bunch of super slow-mo close ups while the game is actually carrying on. Morons.

As for the bloke smoking his cigar, I loved it. Zero ****s were given. All that was missing was a nice glass of red. If I was a billionaire owner of a rugby team, I'd be doing the exact same thing. I'd just hope that I didn't own a team as crap as his

Interested Observer

Was also thinking there were some really odd camera angles on show that didn't add much to anything.



Ringrose possibly available this weekend. Would really feel for Frawley because he's been excellent in general at 12 imo but he'll surely drop out.

realhorrorshow

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

It does seem to be the higher the pace the worse the passes. And in fairness that would be expected but should be worked on more

Harry has been a culprit this year where sometimes half of his passes aren't on the money but he is not the only person.

Ross and Luke have both seen it as has Turner, Frawley, Tommy.

Jimmy has probably been one of the more consistent passers this season. Obviously the likes of Ringrose, Sexton and Henshaw tend to rack up much better numbers but obviously we haven't seen as much of them in recent weeks.

Passing from the deck is its own distinct skill separate from catch-pass, that should occupy a proportionately higher percentage of a 9s training/focus. As you say Luke McGrath is not a good enough passer at the level of competition Leinster operate at. He had a good day on Saturday but still threw at least one absolute stinker to JOB on an exit that resulted in a rushed kick sliced to touch inside the 22. On a bad day he can be a major detriment to the team. I honestly don’t know if his quicker but erratic pass is better or worse than Kieran Marmions slow but consistent one.

Overall I would say that our acrumhalves are miles behind the Kiwis but pretty much on par with the rest of the world purely in terms of passing. I do think that our 9s currently in the national pool trend towards being stronger in other areas such as support running, kicking , threatening the fringes, defence (McGrath and Marmion in particular are absolutely phenomenal defenders), etc. Craig Casey is obviously a bit of an outlier in that sense, and is one of the best prospects on the island IMO.

I think when you’re at the point when you’re (correctly) singling out so many as struggling it indicates a more deep rooted issue. It seems in Ireland passing skill is something that requires specific focus whereas it seems to be a baseline elsewhere.

Anyway, apologies to Leinster fans for derailing this thread. Definitely something to keep an eye out for over the next while anyway.

bayern

realhorrorshow wrote: »

Passing from the deck is its own distinct skill separate from catch-pass, that should occupy a proportionately higher percentage of a 9s training/focus. As you say Luke McGrath is not a good enough passer at the level of competition Leinster operate at. He had a good day on Saturday but still threw at least one absolute stinker to JOB on an exit that resulted in a rushed kick sliced to touch inside the 22. On a bad day he can be a major detriment to the team. I honestly don’t know if his quicker but erratic pass is better or worse than Kieran Marmions slow but consistent one.

Overall I would say that our acrumhalves are miles behind the Kiwis but pretty much on par with the rest of the world purely in terms of passing. I do think that our 9s currently in the national pool trend towards being stronger in other areas such as support running, kicking , threatening the fringes, defence (McGrath and Marmion in particular are absolutely phenomenal defenders), etc. Craig Casey is obviously a bit of an outlier in that sense, and is one of the best prospects on the island IMO.

I think when you’re at the point when you’re (correctly) singling out so many as struggling it indicates a more deep rooted issue. It seems in Ireland passing skill is something that requires specific focus whereas it seems to be a baseline elsewhere.

Anyway, apologies to Leinster fans for derailing this thread. Definitely something to keep an eye out for over the next while anyway.

How did leinster ever win anything with a scrumhalf who isn't a good passer of the balls ill never understand..

realhorrorshow

bayern wrote: »

How did leinster ever win anything with a scrumhalf who isn't a good passer of the balls ill never understand..

What’s your point? Just because a team is successful doesn’t mean that every player in the team is good at every element of their role.

bayern

realhorrorshow wrote: »

What’s your point? Just because a team is successful doesn’t mean that every player in the team is good at every element of their role.

You said he isn't a good enough passer for leinster. The plainly false as leinster have been highly successful with him as 1st choice 9.

No one would claim him to be the best passing nine but he is more than good enough.

realhorrorshow

bayern wrote: »

You said he isn't a good enough passer for leinster. The plainly false as leinster have been highly successful with him as 1st choice 9.

No one would claim him to be the best passing nine but he is more than good enough.

I stand by my statement. I think at the top level against the very best teams who apply oppressive linespeed, receivers consistently checking their runs or reaching up or down to collect his passes hurts Leinster. If memory serves he had a pretty poor game against Saracens last time out. How many top European scrum halves throw passes clean over the head of their 10? Would Leinster have had a better chance of winning with better service from their scrum half?


Not really enjoying getting drawn into a crusade against McGrath as he is a player who I have a huge amount of respect for.

Buer

McGrath is a very good scrum half and is top class at elements of the game such as defence and managing the pack in front of him.

But his passing has always been consistently inconsistent even up to several weeks ago in the Pro14.

The Leinster pack has been good enough to allow him and his back line enough space to manage those inaccuracies. His errors were key in Leinster losing both the 2019 final and 2020 semi final when he didn't have that comfort level.

bayern

realhorrorshow wrote: »

I stand by my statement. I think at the top level against the very best teams who apply oppressive linespeed, receivers consistently checking their runs or reaching up or down to collect his passes hurts Leinster. If memory serves he had a pretty poor game against Saracens last time out. How many top European scrum halves throw passes clean over the head of their 10? Would Leinster have had a better chance of winning with better service from their scrum half?


Not really enjoying getting drawn into a crusade against McGrath as he is a player who I have a huge amount of respect for.

If you don't think he is good enough to be starting 9 for leinster you clearly don't have huge respect for him.

Leinster didn't lose to sarries because of mcgraths passing.

bayern

Buer wrote: »

McGrath is a very good scrum half and is top class at elements of the game such as defence and managing the pack in front of him.

But his passing has always been consistently inconsistent even up to several weeks ago in the Pro14.

The Leinster pack has been good enough to allow him and his back line enough space to manage those inaccuracies. His errors were key in Leinster losing both the 2019 final and 2020 semi final when he didn't have that comfort level.

So is mcgraths passing good enough to be leinsters starting 9 or not?

Buer

bayern wrote: »

So is mcgraths passing good enough to be leinsters starting 9 or not?

Is a player to be judged entirely on one aspect of their game and ignore everything else?

Is his passing good enough? No, it's not. It should be better. But he brings a lot of other abilities to the table which, when combined with the players he has around him, often makes him the best option.

realhorrorshow

bayern wrote: »

If you don't think he is good enough to be starting 9 for leinster you clearly don't have huge respect for him.

Leinster didn't lose to sarries because of mcgraths passing.

Just because I respect him doesn’t mean I have to pretend his passing is better than it is, what a bizarre point. Also I never said he’s not good enough to be starting 9 for Leinster, you’re arguing against a point I never made.

Of course Leinster didn’t lose to Saracens because of his passing, but it definitely didn’t help.

Burkie1203

Some bookies offering Northampton at 80/1 to win this weekend.

aloooof

bayern wrote: »

If you don't think he is good enough to be starting 9 for leinster you clearly don't have huge respect for him.

Ah, c’mon... there are any number of examples of players who someone may not think is good enough to start but still has huge respect for. Take Billy Holland with Munster, for example, a player I’d have massive respect for. It’s a perfectly legitimate stance.

El_Duderino 09

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Some bookies offering Northampton at 80/1 to win this weekend.

I just checked odds checker and they have 60/1 now. Those are outrageous odds.

No game of rugby is 60/1.

Dog Botherer

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I just checked odds checker and they have 60/1 now. Those are outrageous odds.

No game of rugby is 60/1.

that kind of positive thinking is desperately needed over in the Ireland thread.

El_Duderino 09

Great news about the full squad coming through the game without injury.
https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/cullen-issues-leinster-rugby-injury-update/

Northampton have suggested they will rest players this weekend so I wonder if Leinster will try a few new guys and maybe give Healy and Porter a rest?

UAEguy2020

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I just checked odds checker and they have 60/1 now. Those are outrageous odds.

No game of rugby is 60/1.

They might aswell be 1000/1 this weekend.

arsebiscuits1

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Great news about the full squad coming through the game without injury.
https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/cullen-issues-leinster-rugby-injury-update/

Northampton have suggested they will rest players this weekend so I wonder if Leinster will try a few new guys and maybe give Healy and Porter a rest?

I don't think there will be too much rotation. I suspect the same front row will start.

30 minutes for Porter off the bench will do him nicely. The other option is having Tom Clarkson there which I don't believe he's ready for.

I'd like to see Baird start and someone like Connors rotated in but I can't see us sending in the kids based on a throwaway comment made by a coach after they'd just lost a game. I think Penny has probably earned a euro debut

I believe we will still go for a 6-2 split unless Ringrose is back and they look at Frawley at 23


This is European rugby. Send out the best squad

bayern

https://youtu.be/97zdvDtsR00

Leinster A highlights.

great offload from the new SOB for one of the tries.

El_Duderino 09

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I don't think there will be too much rotation. I suspect the same front row will start.

30 minutes for Porter off the bench will do him nicely. The other option is having Tom Clarkson there which I don't believe he's ready for.

I'd like to see Baird start and someone like Connors rotated in but I can't see us sending in the kids based on a throwaway comment made by a coach after they'd just lost a game. I think Penny has probably earned a euro debut

I believe we will still go for a 6-2 split unless Ringrose is back and they look at Frawley at 23


This is European rugby. Send out the best squad

I’d worry about Porter and Healy. He’ll get Christmas off but it’s the long term fatigue that I’d worry about (a gradual drop off in performance). I think furlong looked tired before lockdown. I think Ryan looks tired now.

Normally I’d say play the strongest team in Europe, but I think if Northampton rest some players then Leinster should do it too. Porter and Ryan would be the main ones I’m thinking of.