Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

salmocab

Sexton did 80 too? Actually thought he had quite a good game.

Bazzo

salmocab wrote: »

Sexton did 80 too? Actually thought he had quite a good game.

Really? I thought he was a shadow of his former self...

Backline in the first half looked completely ruderless, and his place kicking was fairly abysmal.

Buer

Sexton played 80 because JOB and HB must not have been fit whatsoever.

His performance was mixed. I have my doubts about his fitness and if there were other options, I suspect he may not have been involved. His place kicking was poor although he didn't really have handy kicks. His general play in the second half was good. There was obviously a change in approach to grind Ulster down through an aerial attack which gained significant territory. His break down the sideline was tidy and he generally defended well which is largely just ignored/taken for granted.

Overall, I'd say it was a mediocre showing and certainly not one he'll be happy with. Last night posed more questions for Ireland than answers. Sexton was mediocre and kicked poorly from the tee. Burns was outright bad. Byrne was good but his pack was well on top and he was swapping around 10, 12 and 13.

Farrell will have more uncertainty now than ever regarding his outhalf situation.

ersatz

Buer wrote: »

Sexton played 80 because JOB and HB must not have been fit whatsoever.

His performance was mixed. I have my doubts about his fitness and if there were other options, I suspect he may not have been involved. His place kicking was poor although he didn't really have handy kicks. His general play in the second half was good. There was obviously a change in approach to grind Ulster down through an aerial attack which gained significant territory. His break down the sideline was tidy and he generally defended well which is largely just ignored/taken for granted.

Overall, I'd say it was a mediocre showing and certainly not one he'll be happy with. Last night posed more questions for Ireland than answers. Sexton was mediocre and kicked poorly from the tee. Burns was outright bad. Byrne was good but his pack was well on top and he was swapping around 10, 12 and 13.

Farrell will have more uncertainty now than ever regarding his outhalf situation.

The spotlight will find Carty eventually. He has played to a very high standard consistently behind a so so pack. And before people reach back to the Japan game, he played alright in that match and if the forwards had done as well as Carty did we would have won the game.

Buer

ersatz wrote: »

The spotlight will find Carty eventually. He has played to a very high standard consistently behind a so so pack. And before people reach back to the Japan game, he played alright in that match and if the forwards had done as well as Carty did we would have won the game.

The spotlight has found him plenty of times.

Consistency is the one thing he hasn't managed. He had pretty mediocre showings earlier in the season with some sloppy showings. Even Connacht fans were calling out a couple of his performances during matches.

Carty has a very high ceiling but his fluctuating performances have always been his achilles heel. He's never a guy that's going to give you 7/10 every week for a sustained period.

ersatz

Buer wrote: »

The spotlight has found him plenty of times.

Consistency is the one thing he hasn't managed. He had pretty mediocre showings earlier in the season with some sloppy showings. Even Connacht fans were calling out a couple of his performances during matches.

Carty has a very high ceiling but his fluctuating performances have always been his achilles heel. He's never a guy that's going to give you 7/10 every week for a sustained period.

Granted, and he is not the player who is a stand out candidate, there aren't any. But given the options and given that Sexton looks like he is in decline (maybe he can find his mojo but it's not been a great period for him) Carty seems to me to be the one who ticks more boxes while we await the second coming in the form of one of the younger players who makes the grade.

Exclamation Marc

Looks like two weeks off now for Leinster with EPCR postponing the fixtures due to be played on the weekends of 15/16/17 January and 22/23/24 January.

Hopefully Pro14 take the opportunity to fit the Leinster v Munster game in as well as other yet to be scheduled interpros.

Season is such a mess.

salmocab

Bazzo wrote: »

Really? I thought he was a shadow of his former self...

Backline in the first half looked completely ruderless, and his place kicking was fairly abysmal.

Yeah thought he played good, not outstanding or anything but had a good game. I’m sure as the game went on he got more into, he’s barely played lately.

Bazzo

salmocab wrote: »

Yeah thought he played good, not outstanding or anything but had a good game. I’m sure as the game went on he got more into, he’s barely played lately.

Agree to disagree I guess. I certainly would not be happy at all if he was putting in performances like that for Ireland.

salmocab

Bazzo wrote: »

Agree to disagree I guess. I certainly would not be happy at all if he was putting in performances like that for Ireland.

Nor would I, didn’t suggest anything of the sort either. I suspect what you’re really getting at is Carty should be playing for Ireland but here on the Leinster forum I just said I thought he played good nothing more.

Bazzo

salmocab wrote: »

Nor would I, didn’t suggest anything of the sort either. I suspect what you’re really getting at is Carty should be playing for Ireland but here on the Leinster forum I just said I thought he played good nothing more.

What on earth are you talking about?

bayern

Guessing what happens with Leinster's expiring contracts

Confirmed out of contract:
Cian Healy(33/Belvedere/Clontarf) - central contract until 2021
Michael Bent(35) - signed contract in 2020
Tadhg Furlong(28/New Ross RFC/Clontarf) - central contract until 2021
Sean Cronin(35) - signed contract in 2020
Scott Fardy(37) - signed 1 yr contract in 2020
Devin Toner(35/Castleknock/Lansdowne) - signed 1 yr contract in 2020
Jonathan Sexton(36/St. Marys/St. Marys) - central contract until 2021

Fardy is gone, sounds like Cronin may follow him. Hopefully Bent/Toner stay around for another season, but unclear if they will. Sexton looks committed to playing on, you'd assume Healy will too, probably coming off a central deal. Finally Furlong will be in demand despite injury, but IRFU will surely ensure he doesn't leave.

Likely out of contract:
Ronan Kelleher(23/St. Michaels/Lansdowne) - signed contract in 2019
Jack Conan(29/St. Gerards/Old Belvedere) - signed contract in 2019
Max Deegan(24/St. Michaels/Lansdowne) - signed contract in 2019
Scott Penny(21/St. Michaels/UCD) - signed contract in 2019
Jamie Gibson Park(29) - signed contract in 2019
Luke McGrath(28/St. Michaels/UCD) - signed contract in 2019
Hugh O'Sullivan(23/Belvedere/Clontarf) - signed contract in 2019
Ciaran Frawley(23/Skerries RFC/UCD) - signed contract in 2019
Conor O'Brien(25/Mullingar RFC/Clontarf) - signed contract in 2019
Jimmy O'Brien(24/Newbridge/UCD) - signed contract in 2019
Dave Kearney(32/Clongowes/Lansdowne) - signed contract in 2019
Cian Kelleher(27/St. Michaels/Lansdowne) - signed contract in 2019
Hugo Keenan(25/Blackrock/UCD) - signed contract in 2019

I'm sure Leinster would look to retain all the player listed, will they is another question entirely.. you'd wonder if someone like Kearney might try to cash in on his current form abroad given he is on the outside looking in for ireland. Deegan looked primed to be lured elsewhere but given his injury the incentive to leave may have lessened, there is talk around Penny a lot and it wouldn't be a huge shock if he left given where he sits on the depth chart, Conan has turned down multiple offers to move in the past but maybe falling behind Doris will finally push him to look elsewhere. Can't see the Kellehers leaving or either scrumhalf. Maybe HOS gets an offer and takes the opportunity for more gametime. Frawley could be in demand elsewhere but you'd hope Leinster will be able to keep hold of him. COB is injured so will probably get a year extension to get healthy and try re-establish himself in the squad next season. JOB and Keenan have become key players in the Leinster squad and I can't see either leaving.

Possibly out of contract:
Vakh Abdaladze(25/Coolmine RFC/Clontarf) - signed contract in 2020
Greg McGrath(23/Wexford RFC/Lansdowne) - trial
Dan Sheehan(22/Clongowes/Lansdowne) - signed contract in 2020
Jack Dunne(22/St. Michaels/DUFC) - signed contract in 2020
Ryan Baird(21/St. Michaels/DUFC) - signed contract in 2020
Rowan Osborne(24/Clongowes/DUFC) - signed contract in 2020
Harry Byrne(21/St. Michaels/Lansdowne) - signed contract in 2020
Tommy O'Brien(22/Blackrock/UCD) - signed contract in 2020
Adam Byrne(27/Naas RFC/UCD) - signed contract in 2020

I'd imagine it's unlikely that Dunne, Baird, Byrne, TOB and Sheehan signed 1 year deals out of the academy but it is possible so i've listed them here as possible out of contract, if any of them are you'd assume they'd all be retained. Osborne is likely out of contract along with the rest of the scrumhalf group, hard to know if he will be retained they seem to rate him over Patterson in the academy. Vakh and AB probably need to return healthy and prove themselves with whatever is left of this season, doesn't look great for Byrne though. Finally Greg McGrath will be trying to earn a contract for next season over the next few months.

Academy
Michael Milne(22/Birr RFC-Roscrea/UCD)
Tom Clarkson(21/Blackrock/DUFC)
Charlie Ryan(22/Blackrock/UCD)
Paddy Patterson(22/Blackrock/UCD)
David Hawkshaw(22/Belvedere/Clontarf)
Michael Silvester(23/Clongowes/DUFC)
Aaron O'Sullivan(21/Exile/Blackrock)

I'd expect Milne and Hawkshaw to move to dev contracts, probably Silvester and O'Sullivan too. Patterson looks under pressure to get a contract for next season. Finally Tom Clarkson looks likely to move into the senior squad, while Charlie Ryan may push for early graduation also.. depending on his health status for the remainder of the season.

Obviously this is projecting that everything is totally ****ed financially, all bets off if there have to be huge cuts.

Stout Warrior

Leinster strongest team with full squad fit:

Team if H Cup was on this weekend:

Healy
Cronin
Porter
Toner/Fardy
Ryan
Ruddock
VDF
Doris

JGP
Sexton (soon to usurped by Hawkshaw)
Lowe
Henshaw
Ringrose
TOB
Keenan

Dooley Tracy Furlong Conan Connors HOS JOB Kearney

arsebiscuits1

Stout Warrior wrote: »

Leinster strongest team with full squad fit:

Team if H Cup was on this weekend:

Healy
Cronin
Porter
Toner/Fardy
Ryan
Ruddock
VDF
Doris

JGP
Sexton (soon to usurped by Hawkshaw)
Lowe
Henshaw
Ringrose
TOB
Keenan

Dooley Tracy Furlong Conan Connors HOS JOB Kearney

The concept of a "strongest team" is pretty dated and not really applicable given the quality within Leinster.

So even skirting around your obvious wind up attempts. There is no strongest team. There are players whose strengths really benefit against certain opposition or certain game plans and probably not as much against others.

Horses for courses to use the cliche

Stout Warrior

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

The concept of a "strongest team" is pretty dated and not really applicable given the quality within Leinster.

So even skirting around your obvious wind up attempts. There is no strongest team. There are players whose strengths really benefit against certain opposition or certain game plans and probably not as much against others.

Horses for courses to use the cliche

Presume you’re referring to the Hawkshaw comment and McGrath being left out. They’re not wind up attempts just my choice of strongest players if fit. It’s a useful exercise to have a “ snapshot” to consider our strongest team and start debate on who should play if all fit. If playing Saracens or Toulouse I have Connors starting.

Also close call between Kearney and Larmour getting bench spot but I start TOB because he’s the strongest (already) of the 3.

aloooof

Stout Warrior wrote: »

Sexton (soon to usurped by Hawkshaw)

If you're actually serious about the Hawkshaw comment, I'm more than happy to have a wager with you on this? I'm sure we can get another boardsie to escrow.

VANG1

Thank God Leo is picking the team

Clegg

bayern wrote: »

Guessing what happens with Leinster's expiring contracts



Obviously this is projecting that everything is totally ****ed financially, all bets off if there have to be huge cuts.

I think Fardy will definitely leave which is a shame as he's been so good. But finances must be terrible right now so it's a no-brainer.

Can then see at least one of Healy, Sexton or Toner leaving. That's on top or Cronin who is probably out the door as well.

Would rather not see a backrow leave but it's inevitable. Probably Penny.

Clegg

It's a shame Harry Byrne picked up an injury. He'd been playing well this season as Leinsters main 10 and was ready for the step up to starting in Europe. Have to hope he gets a run out soon.

Also I've been very impressed by Henshaw this season and at the back end of last season for Ireland too. Injuries have hampered his progress a lot, but he's so good when fully fit.

Stout Warrior

aloooof wrote: »

If you're actually serious about the Hawkshaw comment, I'm more than happy to have a wager with you on this? I'm sure we can get another boardsie to escrow.

Happy to have a bet on it. If his kicking can hit the upper 80’s he’s our best 10 in the squad.

bayern

didn't look it against Munster A.

nor when he through that interception against Connacht.

He is a talented young outhalf, he is miles away from being Leinster's best 10.

PMC83

I know hes only recently back, but seems to be like Sean Cronin can still do the business. Would love to see him stay.

bayern

PMC83 wrote: »

I know hes only recently back, but seems to be like Sean Cronin can still do the business. Would love to see him stay.

House up for sale, he is off.

Interested Observer

Have been really impressed by Keenan lately. He's extremely solid and doesn't really make too many mistakes but he's adding a playmaking ability to his game now, he gets his hands on the ball a lot, I can't find any stats these days but felt like he passed a good bit and beat a good few defenders. I honestly thought with all the recent Ireland caps he'd possibly been elevated above his ceiling but reckon I'm fairly wrong on that front.

bayern

Likely hooker group next season:

James Tracy(30/Newbridge/UCD)
Ronan Kelleher(23/St. Michaels/Lansdowne)
Dan Sheehan(22/Clongowes/Lansdowne)
John McKee(21/Campbell/Old Belvedere) - Academy Yr 2
Lee Barron(U20/St. Michaels/DUFC) - Academy Yr 1

Unless they decide to bring Brian Byrne back from Bristol, who has appeared to learn how to throw while in England.

Stout Warrior

bayern wrote: »

didn't look it against Munster A.

nor when he through that interception against Connacht.

He is a talented young outhalf, he is miles away from being Leinster's best 10.

I meant to say outside of Sexton. I suppose it depends on whether you want a running 10 or a kicking 10.

arsebiscuits1

Some thoughts on the Ulster game after a re-watch.

It seems we have taken some lessons out of our European quarter final against them as well as the Sarries quarter final last season. Against a stubborn and resolute defence, the tactical kicking game needs to be good. In this case it wasn't perfect but it was good to see that side of it. It's rare to see Leinster fire up a Garryowen as often as we did but it was refreshing to see a plan B given we weren't getting as much front foot ball as we'd have liked.

I'll start with Sextons performance. On initial viewing, I thought he was poor. There were a few moments where his kicks from hand weren't accurate enough and his general play wasn't tremendous. But looking back he had a much better game than I gave him credit for. Far from his best, but not too bad at all.

Defensively he was excellent. His defensive game is well established, but there were at least 2 examples where he had a genuine impact tackle on the Ulster player and made his presence felt. Absolutely emptied them. He is credited with 10 tackles which is a really decent shift - especially when you consider only Ryan, our starting back row and Ed Byrne (impressively) made more. Defense is still a massive part of the game. And those who want his jersey will need to start showing they can put those shifts in. Currently there isn't anyone who can.

Healy really looked off the pace. Got annihilated in a few tackles. He can be pleased with his scrummaging though where he really had Moore in all sorts of trouble.

Cronin was excellent. I've heard from reliable source that he's off at the end of this season but this was a great chance to see what we will miss even if he is 35. 8/8 at the lineout and a significant line break were real highlights. 54 meters gained was only bettered by JGP (56m) and equaled by our Motm Keenan.

Ryan looked back to his old self. 12 carries where he was able to go into contact on his terms and fight for the meter and 13 meaty, impactful tackles. The stats don't do his performance justice. He was extremely impressive in stopping Ulsters momentum and he marshalled Coetzee and McCloskey extremely well.

While Fardy didn't have the same performance of his peers in the pack I feel, his handling is just so so good. His catch pass and ability to release men around him is such an asset.

Backrow were excellent. Lovely balance between the 3 I felt. Ruddock got his hands nice and dirty but in this case was outshone by VDF and Doris (which is not slight on Rhys) VDF came up with the goods of 24 tackles. 10 more than the nearest Leinster player in Doris. Any time I worry that Josh will get comprehensively jumped by all our other 7s he comes out with performances like that. Side note: he had 2 absolute rippers of passes off the base of the ruck when the 9 was unavailable. I knew he was a good passer, but these were absolute belters.

Says a lot about Doris that he can outplay Marcel Coetzee that comprehensively in the game. He was everywhere. Made some impactful carries and important momentum stopping tackles on Coetzee to stop Ulsters front foot ball. He was my motm. The energy he brings to the game really reminds me of Heaslip. I can't see Conan or Deegan getting ahead of him if Doris keeps delivering these performances.

The 10,12,13 axis was an experiment I never knew I wanted to see. And it worked out really well. I wont go as far as to say I want to see it going forward, nor do I think it was a stroke of genius from Leocaster. But credit where it was due, the lads chopped and changed very well and all delivered. Robbie was excellent and I suspect there was a lot of babysitting Ross and taking responsibility of 13 duties from him. But Ross was good. I enjoyed seeing Sexton play at second standoff outside Ross. Added an interesting layer. And Ross had a lovely dummy break and pass. If Ringrose did it we'd be singing his praises :pac:

A final word on Keenan who has essentially ended the conversation about 15 going forward (at least in blue). It was an extremely assured performance where he showcased an accomplished all around game. By no means perfect, he was beaten in the air a few times (including by the 4'2" Lowry) but he did recover well after that to burst a lung to get into position and mark Burns kick 5 seconds later. I've said it in most write ups at this stage but he keeps impressing me with it so I'll keep referring to it. His one on one tackling is just so good. I implore you to take a close look at it next chance you get. He is able to close down players at such pace and still not get beaten with footwork. Lowry has a phenomenal step and Keenan had no issues closing him down.

Overall it was as good a top of the table clash as you could expect and all the talk of Leinsters demise after Connacht has been somewhat exaggerated

Interested Observer

arsebiscuits1 - out of interest where are you getting the stats from? Used to get them from scrum.com but can't see them there anymore.

arsebiscuits1

Interested Observer wrote: »

arsebiscuits1 - out of interest where are you getting the stats from? Used to get them from scrum.com but can't see them there anymore.

The bottom of the match reports on the Leinster site. Generally go up the next day. They'd be directly from the Analysts too so it would be pretty accurate

Clegg

Murray Kinsella tweeted about VDF as well. Think he's beginning to get overlooked in blue and green. Think he has a more rounded game than Connors still.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1348599011251531777?s=09