Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

bayern

thomond2006 wrote: »

3rd choice SH at Leinster is a purgatory spot. JGP and McGrath are well established at this stage and aren't likely to be usurped. It feels like a bridge signing until a new young star is produced.

could be awhile given track record at producing star scrumhalves..

arsebiscuits1

I was thinking of this when watching Nick last night.

He'd be at best 3rd choice 9 at literally all of the provinces.

I know he went to Munster with the intention of getting to be solid number 2 man behind Murray but that obviously didn't happen.

So if he's accepting that number 3 scrumhalf is his ceiling then why not come home and play here. Family is here. He's playing among players he's played with for years.

Decent decision i think

arsebiscuits1

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Could one of Luke/JGP be leaving?

I'd be shocked.

I also think Luke would do quite well in France though. He's got that whole general thing down.

Exclamation Marc

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Could one of Luke/JGP be leaving?

Can't see either leaving (outside of one wanting to which would be a shock). If either did, we're an injury or international call up away from starting Mccarthy or HOS in a big game.

Lost Ormond

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Can't see either leaving (outside of one wanting to which would be a shock). If either did, we're an injury or international call up away from starting Mccarthy or HOS in a big game.

Is that really a bad thing?
Dont see either leaving but if one did you're still left with a set up similar to most pro sides in terms of back ups. McCarthy has 50 plus appearances so he's hardly a novice. O Sullivan has 30 plus appearances. Its not like you have to call up guys with no pro rugby appearances as back ups

Exclamation Marc

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Is that really a bad thing?
Dont see either leaving but if one did you're still left with a set up similar to most pro sides in terms of back ups. McCarthy has 50 plus appearances so he's hardly a novice. O Sullivan has 30 plus appearances. Its not like you have to call up guys with no pro rugby appearances as back ups

I think if you're looking to be one of the top teams in Europe, you need to have stronger depth than most other pro sides and I don't think McCarthy or HOS as the back up to your starting 9 fits that bill. They're great third spot scrum halves and should JGP/Luke become unavailable, they're good options to deputise off the bench.

bayern

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Is that really a bad thing?
Dont see either leaving but if one did you're still left with a set up similar to most pro sides in terms of back ups. McCarthy has 50 plus appearances so he's hardly a novice. O Sullivan has 30 plus appearances. Its not like you have to call up guys with no pro rugby appearances as back ups

O'Sullivan has 26 apps but is a very inexperienced 9 in actual game time terms. Some of his leinster appearances have been at 15 and only 2 of his appearances for Leinster have been starts, both coming 2 years ago in 2019. 10 have seen him get less than 10 mins on the field. Combine that with him not playing 9 in school and you have a scrumhalf who hasn't much experience playing the position.

Serbian

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Is that really a bad thing?
Dont see either leaving but if one did you're still left with a set up similar to most pro sides in terms of back ups. McCarthy has 50 plus appearances so he's hardly a novice. O Sullivan has 30 plus appearances. Its not like you have to call up guys with no pro rugby appearances as back ups

You don't have to look too far to see how Leinster rate any of the scrum halves outside of McGrath and Gibson-Park. In the past two years, Rowan Osbourne and Hugh O'Sullivan have started three games between them. We rarely risk having anyone else on the field until after the match is closed out.

Nick McCarthy may not be a superstar, but he was trusted a lot more than any of the backup scrum halves we currently have. We're also likely cutting at least one of the academy bunch — Patterson likely playing for a contract in Munster at the moment.

El_Duderino 09

bayern wrote: »

Nick McCarthy is set to leave Munster and re-join his native Leinster ahead of next season.

https://www.the42.ie/nick-mccarthy-leinster-munster-5341108-Jan2021/

Wonder what that means for Hughie, who looked decent off the bench last night.

I wonder what’s the plan for Nick McCarthy. He’s grand, but you’re not planning to start an important game with him at SH. So why not let the younger lads fill in when necessary?

He was a very strange signing at Munster.

FellasFellas

Don't understand McCarthy coming back in all honesty. They did the same with Cian Kelleher, bringing these guys back doesn't seem to help either party really in the longer term, however I do understand Leinster don't produce top scrum halves.

KaneToad

FellasFellas wrote: »

I absolutely agree that its going well for him, and delighted for him. Lam and Muldoon doing class work at Bristol and they're playing unreal ball, which is a great environment to be in...

Don't forget about Conor Mc Phillips.

Edit: Got his name wrong. The irony!

thomond2006

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I wonder what’s the plan for Nick McCarthy. He’s grand, but you’re not planning to start an important game with him at SH. So why not let the younger lads fill in when necessary?

He was a very strange signing at Munster.

Even with the benefit of hindsight, he wasn't a strange signing at Munster. Craig Casey hadn't emerged and Duncan Williams was close to retirement. At the time Munster needed another option.

Buer

McCarthy was trusted more in Leinster than the likes of HOS is now. But not a lot more. He had 6 starts before leaving at the age of 24. The highest number of minutes he ever had in a season was 466. Most of his profile stems from the fact that he was shoehorned into the 23 during our European Cup winning run when we were only allowed two from Fardy, JGP and Lowe. Take those appearances out and his profile isn't much different to where HOS is right now i.e. not trusted at all, really.

It's a curious move. From McCarthy's perspective, he's leaving a side whose first and second choice scrum halves are relatively likely to be the Irish first and second choice next season. Munster reportedly offered him a contract too. If he took a 2 year deal, Murray is potentially at retiring age after it (he'll be 34) and McCarthy would be in a position to move into the back up role and enjoy pretty consistent game time.

At Leinster, he's likely to be behind the two boys who will usually be available throughout the season barring injury. They're 27 and 28 respectively so are here for another 5 years at least unless one of them chooses to move on. The potential for game time is limited.

I wonder if McCarthy is looking at winding down his career and has an eye to the future whilst he plans his next move. In that sense, I'm sure he'd rather be in Dublin.

DonVito

A good bit of business for Leinster, probably not so much for McCarthy, but he has little choice.

He left for Munster as he was 3rd choice, and Casey resigned him to 3rd choice there as well. And it's clear Munster are excited about young Coughlan and itching to expose him too.He could maybe fight 2nd choice at Ulster but any chance he has there, he has equal chance at home, so makes sense. Hasn't enough of a portfolio to attract outside clubs.

For Leinster, it's some better cover when JGP is with Ireland. No way Leinster will be permitted to sign an NIQ again, and it'll be a while before genuine competition comes through the academy. Plus, McCarthy is a good 9. He runs good trail lines, his pass has distance and he's intelligent around the base.

Leinster chose their gut with McGrath, when it was Cooney v McGrath, and very few could argue with that decision. It didn't turn out as well as hoped, and Cooney has developed into a serious player. McCarthy had little hope of being placed in a serious competition, as Leinster brought in JGP and wanted to give their investment a chance. Who knows... McCarthy has always done well when given the opportunity, there's still time for him to kick up a fuss. Although I get the feeling come the end of it, this will just be a good slot of time for him to build a reel and go abroad.

bayern

DonVito wrote: »

A good bit of business for Leinster, probably not so much for McCarthy, but he has little choice.

He left for Munster as he was 3rd choice, and Casey resigned him to 3rd choice there as well. And it's clear Munster are excited about young Coughlan and itching to expose him too.He could maybe fight 2nd choice at Ulster but any chance he has there, he has equal chance at home, so makes sense. Hasn't enough of a portfolio to attract outside clubs.

For Leinster, it's some better cover when JGP is with Ireland. No way Leinster will be permitted to sign an NIQ again, and it'll be a while before genuine competition comes through the academy. Plus, McCarthy is a good 9. He runs good trail lines, his pass has distance and he's intelligent around the base.

Leinster chose their gut with McGrath, when it was Cooney v McGrath, and very few could argue with that decision. It didn't turn out as well as hoped, and Cooney has developed into a serious player. McCarthy had little hope of being placed in a serious competition, as Leinster brought in JGP and wanted to give their investment a chance. Who knows... McCarthy has always done well when given the opportunity, there's still time for him to kick up a fuss. Although I get the feeling come the end of it, this will just be a good slot of time for him to build a reel and go abroad.

That's generous, if they were so eager he'd have been on the bench at the weekend. He was no threat to McCarthy for gametime.

That was down MOC, Leinster had offered Cooney a contract but he chose to leave Leinster due to MOC.

DonVito

No threat now, but if McCarthy were to hold on till Murray hung up his boots, he wouldn't be in for a smooth transition to 2nd place with a highly anticipate young prospect on the scene. Of course I wasn't talking about Coughlan being a past or current threat to McCarthy. Coughlan has barely been in the professional set up...

I didn't mean Leinster went with McGrath and didn't offer Cooney a contract. I was speaking in regards selection. Which of course was the dominion of Matt O'Connor.

stellenbosch

DonVito wrote: »

No threat now, but if McCarthy were to hold on till Murray hung up his boots, he wouldn't be in for a smooth transition to 2nd place with a highly anticipate young prospect on the scene. Of course I wasn't talking about Coughlan being a past or current threat to McCarthy. Coughlan has barely been in the professional set up...

I didn't mean Leinster went with McGrath and didn't offer Cooney a contract. I was speaking in regards selection. Which of course was the dominion of Matt O'Connor.

McCarthy is number 4 in Munster. Neil Cronin was being selected before him before he was injured and rightly so

bayern

irishrugbyua wrote:

Caelan Doris and Quinn Roux have returned to their respective Provinces for further medical assessment.

Caelan has flagged some symptoms that could be associated with concussion. He has returned to Leinster to allow his symptoms to be appropriately assessed and investigated.

Quinn has a neck complaint that has not settled so he has returned to Connacht.

Munster backrow Gavin Coombes and Leinster lock Ryan Baird will train with the Ireland squad this week.

more concussion worries for Doris.. thats not good.

Buer

That's a big worry. He has already suffered a number of concussions in his career. For him to start showing symptoms in camp has to be a real concern.

He might be stood down for a period of time and there can be no complaints if he is. Horrible shame though.

Squidgy Black

Jesus that's not great at all for Doris, quite scary really.

As Buer says, if it's something that persists it'd be in the IRFU and Leinster's interest to stand him down for a prolonged period, particularly given the current narrative around head injuries in the game, and given his age it could be the difference between a long career or an early exit with life long issues.

Faugheen

Completely agree with the Doris calls. They need to stand him down for the rest of the season at the very least.

arsebiscuits1

Faugheen wrote: »

Completely agree with the Doris calls. They need to stand him down for the rest of the season at the very least.

No.

They need to medically assess him and have trained professionals decide the best course of action and make an informed decision.

Quin_Dub

Terrible timing for Doris , but as everyone says , absolutely the right thing and it will take as long as it takes to get him right.

There are no short cuts worth taking when dealing with Concussion.

arsebiscuits1

Only got to watch back the Scarlets game there. It was a pleasing rewatch of a very good performance.

Individually there were some stand outs. However the overall winner was raw dominance. Scarlets had quality in the backline to exploit us so keeping the physical pressure on, especially up front was what won it for us. Smart game plan well executed.

Passing accuracy is one thing I've been vocal about all year - primarily from our backs. This was game one of the strongest passing displays I have seen so far.

Conan gave us a timely reminder of the sort of player he was. I was very surprised on Saturday to see how many meters he made (79 - the most of any Leinster player forward or back) given I didn't recall any notable breaks or carries. Looking back, he was dominant on every carry. He picked his lanes very well and gave Scarlets a lot of hassle.

Our second row pairing was very good also. Strong set piece game from them. Molony was audibly calling the lineout and it functioned very well. It was clear we were just happy to concede the front and force Scarlets to play from there. They had no success off lineout ball so big tick for the set piece there.

Baird I initially thought was quiet. I realised then I was using an unfair barometer of him making a line break to be considered having a good game. He was our top carrier of the night with 17 and made yards in virtually all of them. It was a very James Ryan-esque game in how he was able to eek out the extra meter having taken a double hit. I noted there was a great mean streak in his game. There was some venom in his ruck work that is required of a top level lock that he was displaying. His latching was effective also. I do feel that Scarlets were keeping a close eye on him.

Interesting to note that Baird scrummaged on the loosehead side despite wearing 5. Molony was tight side lock. I wonder why they wore the numbers that they did. Perhaps it could have been a last minute decision or something as, looking at the Leinster stats, Molony has never worn the 5 shirt in over 100 appearances. Odd.

Great to see Tadgh back. Industrious first have as required. He looked like he could have packed down each scrum all evening. 6 good carries. Did exactly what management would have wanted from him.

Dooley definitely won this battle of the looseheads too. Good display with Byrne off the boil coming on and conceding some poor penalties.

Luke again upping his performances. Strong passing and he's been getting his pack moving off him so well.

Harry Byrne probably putting in one of his stronger performances. That was the exact type of game that will stand to a young 10 developing. Scarlets obviously sought to put him under pressure and led impressive linespeed for a lot of the game. Harry was able to pick some excellent passes but also choosing when not to play it just as well. Forced absolutely nothing and Leinster were better for it. Highlight for me was a spot on kick to the corner on his weaker foot as he was being hit. Clutch.

I'm still underwhelmed by Max O'Reilly. Well taken try and he can remember it fondly. Outside of this I thought it was a weak performance. He demonstrated real positional weakness against Connacht and it was displayed again on Saturday. For Scarlets second try, he cheaply lost possession, stayed in the front line for the next phase, eventually tracked back a bit but didn't react and was nowhere near the man when they scored. He needs to be more tuned in than that. While it was a poor missed tackle that led to the third try, I think he was defending far too wide.

Hawkshaw is impressing me a lot in these cameos. He's a legitimate threat with ball in hand. The dynamism in his step has the ability to leave a defender in a different timezone. Only Larmour I can think of in the squad has a better one.

Final word has to go to Jamie Osborne. A 19 year old debutant whose at best the 6/7th choice will get mitigation from me. I'd have been happy with just one positive involvement. So it says a lot that there was no negative involvements that I picked up. Instant impact forcing a player back 15 meters. Another meaty impact tackle in the midfield also. He is credited with 4 tackles so having 50% of them being genuine impact tackles is top tier stats. He clearly has a calm head and a good rugby brain. Lovely evasive maneuver to win the collision and release Hawkshaw for his try and an excellent dart down the left wing for yards.

But one of the most impressive ones I saw was when O'Reilly lost the ball before Scarlets try, it was Osborne who recognised he'd left the backfield bare. He tracked back and then across and forced the pass when it was a 2 on 1. Good heads up reactions from a still very inexperienced player. Has he even played AIL yet?

dub_skav

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Interesting to note that Baird scrummaged on the loosehead side despite wearing 5. Molony was tight side lock. I wonder why they wore the numbers that they did. Perhaps it could have been a last minute decision or something as, looking at the Leinster stats, Molony has never worn the 5 shirt in over 100 appearances. Odd.

Perhaps Molony finally had a 2nd row partner that he could beat at rock, paper, scissors.

bayern

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Has he even played AIL yet?

Nope.

Definitely a concerning headline. Hope he recovers and can put the issues behind him.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/ireland-star-caelan-doris-set-to-travel-to-the-uk-to-visit-specialist-amid-concussion-issues-40060584.html

Clegg

Just seen the news on Doris which Venjur posted above. Sounds like we shouldn't expect to see him for a few months more. Persistent concussion like symptoms in a 22 year old is very concerning.

Dubinusa

Very worrisome indeed. I hope he recovers.

Burkie1203

Clegg wrote: »

Just seen the news on Doris which Venjur posted above. Sounds like we shouldn't expect to see him for a few months more. Persistent concussion like symptoms in a 22 year old is very concerning.

Who was the player who went to see a specialist who diagnosed an ear issue was the cause of the symptoms?

Am hoping 🙠its something similar but I think Doris should not play again this season.