Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

theVersatile

Penny doesn't make the current Munster back row of Coombes, POM, CJ. Don't think he'd move South to hustle with JOD for the 20 jersey; and I don't think Munster would take him with Hodnett so close to breaking through prior to injury

arsebiscuits1

theVersatile wrote: »

Penny doesn't make the current Munster back row of Coombes, POM, CJ. Don't think he'd move South to hustle with JOD for the 20 jersey; and I don't think Munster would take him with Hodnett so close to breaking through prior to injury

Even JVG knows that he needs to play a quality openside to succeed consistently.

And Penny is a far superior 7 option to Hodnett and has been all the way up

Garda Kenny

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

If you showed my that scoreline on Friday I'd have taken it with thanks as I genuinely felt Glasgow had a good chance at taking this one.

Having seen the game however I think the scoreline flattered us.

This was an extremely sloppy affair prompted by Leinster losing their 2 key play makers early on and Glasgow losing their key play maker too to one of the more braindead things you can do on a rugby pitch.

Kelleher was lucky the studs didn't get him in the eye. You saw the marks on his face how close it was. He had a click to react and managed to turn his face away but it was a sickening clash. To those saying it was a "rugby incident".... a rugby incident should never result in blindness in one eye, red carding these will prevent similar in the future. There cannot be an argument on this (in fairness no one here and only a smattering of people online thought it was anything other than red)

On paper, we lost the "stats battle" on everything except tries scored and turnovers conceded (11 Leinster, 16 Glasgow) but as always these don't tell the full picture. For example Leinster conceded 10 penalties to Glasgows 8. Glasgow clearly were not credited for all the penalties they conceded while we had advantage. This is an oversight IMO. Glasgow with the majority of Territory and Possession.

We were also credited with 220 tackles made which is a surprising total given the relatively one sided scoreline. The concerning aspect of these were the amount of soak tackles and missed (34 I have). Need to do better defensively than that.

To me it seems the plan for this game was to use Hawkshaw as a last resort and hoping Frawley and Harry could steer us. After we lost Harry we retained very little ball as neither Hawkshaw nor Jimmy got much shape going outside them - interestingly both stood in the 10 channel at various times. But once we lost Byrne the plan devolved to one out runners and territory for the most part.

Dooley was the pick of the litter of the front 5. Showcased again a willingness to carry and a great ability to step away from the first tackler for the meter. 18 carries and 13 tackles is a great shift for a loosehead who held his own in the many scrums also.

Penny was the pick of the backrow for me (with a significant hat tip to VDF with 24 tackles none missed) 22 carries and 22 tackles is serious energy from a man playing out of position. He must be among the fittest people in the squad. Consistently looking for work and at no point shirking the responsibilities. I did keep a close eye on him as I was curious to see how Leinster would amend their shape to accommodate Scott at 8. They didn't seem to at all which shows the faith in him. The exit strategy from receiving a KO tends to come from the 8 carrying hard out of the 22 and we saw examples of him doing this, taking on 2 men into contact to win the collision. The lineout was another one I kept an eye on. Leinster have their 8 jump at 2 a lot. Scott has never jumped before in a lineout. Low and behold... he jumped at 2 and won it (albeit uncontested). So congrats on your first lineout take Scott :pac: He took both his tries fantastically well.

FWIW I thought Josh Murphy had a poor display that was highlighted by his backrow fellows performance. Multiple penalties conceded and poor handling on display. He will need to do better.

This game will stand a lot to Jamie Osborne too who had a busy shift. Coming up against a resurgent Huw Jones who I think is an unbelievable 13. Osborne had an industrious 12 tackles but the major blot on the copybook is 2 poor misses that directly led to tries. Mitigation was he was in the right position and just showed poor execution, no doubt he will work on that and improve. Still hats off to a 19 year old for doing as well as he did for 80 minutes in a pretty attritional game.

I'm still not really seeing what Hawkshaw offers at 10. His pace, acceleration and step are all excellent. But his overall kicking game really seems to be lacking (he was poor out of hand) as does his ability to get things moving outside him. I'm sure there is room for an athlete of his caliber in Leinster - but is it at 10?

Top analysis again AB thanks for this. In relation to Hawkshaw he is a ferocious competitor and brings the ball to the line at speed with intent. I think he commits defenders and that opens space for those outside him, Harry similar to Ross sits back in the pocket and either kicks or spreads but doesn’t commit defenders.

I would be of similar opinion to you that Hawkshaw kicking game isn’t good enough for a pro level flyhalf but it depends on what type of game you want to play. If you want a running game he is the man if you want a kicking game Harry is the man. I’m of the slant that Leinster prides itself on running rugby and if that’s what you want I would still give Hawkshaw game time there and see how it pans out.

He is also a wily competitor and seems to be able to pull off plays in contact where he comes out on top. If you have Harry playing he more often than not comes off second best in contact. I would also question his will to drag his team over the line in tough games. In these close games I would prefer to have Hawkshaw dictating play rather than trying to pull off gimmicky stab kicks through the defence or up and unders or cross field kicks. I would prefer a ten who spreads play and can have a cut himself.

arsebiscuits1

Garda Kenny wrote: »

Top analysis again AB thanks for this. In relation to Hawkshaw he is a ferocious competitor and brings the ball to the line at speed with intent. I think he commits defenders and that opens space for those outside him, Harry similar to Ross sits back in the pocket and either kicks or spreads but doesn’t commit defenders.

I would be of similar opinion to you that Hawkshaw kicking game isn’t good enough for a pro level flyhalf but it depends on what type of game you want to play. If you want a running game he is the man if you want a kicking game Harry is the man. I’m of the slant that Leinster prides itself on running rugby and if that’s what you want I would still give Hawkshaw game time there and see how it pans out.

He is also a wily competitor and seems to be able to pull off plays in contact where he comes out on top. If you have Harry playing he more often than not comes off second best in contact. I would also question his will to drag his team over the line in tough games. In these close games I would prefer to have Hawkshaw dictating play rather than trying to pull off gimmicky stab kicks through the defence or up and unders or cross field kicks. I would prefer a ten who spreads play and can have a cut himself.

I don't necessarily agree with your assessment of Harry and standing deep and not committing defenders. I think he is quite adept at taking it to the line and we've seen some lovely tries come off him releasing the ball at the point of contact or after.

And the issue for Hawkshaw and his kicking game is at this level or any level up, you just can't have one or the other. Absolutely he can be a running threat and be incredible at it. But you can't shirk the kicking duties.

Look at Joey. I don't consider him an overly good kicker. Certainly not as much as he offers ball in hand. But he can still have some lovely touches from the boot when you need it from him

Garda Kenny

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I don't necessarily agree with your assessment of Harry and standing deep and not committing defenders. I think he is quite adept at taking it to the line and we've seen some lovely tries come off him releasing the ball at the point of contact or after.

And the issue for Hawkshaw and his kicking game is at this level or any level up, you just can't have one or the other. Absolutely he can be a running threat and be incredible at it. But you can't shirk the kicking duties.

Look at Joey. I don't consider him an overly good kicker. Certainly not as much as he offers ball in hand. But he can still have some lovely touches from the boot when you need it from him

Agreed he needs to work on his kicking game. If he can add through kicks and chips over the defence to his bow I think he shades it for me. His long range kicks from hand leave a lot to be desired at he shouldn’t try this in games he should focus on his strengths and be seen to excel at these. If the oppo back 3 are out of place and he shanks a long range effort it is a wasted play and wasted possession. Harry outdoes him there. I personally prefer possession rugby rather than territory so I am prejudiced to that type of game. Also noticed him gasping for air after some plays. I wonder if he is fully fit at the moment.

I also think the man left out of this conversation is Frawley and is the best mix of both players. Really felt for him seeing him in the warmup - he looked devastated. Would like to see Ciaran given more game time at outhalf when he comes back and for him to iron out the concentration lapses that have been pointed out in the past. He could well be the solution to our ten problems in the long run

Clegg

Ed Byrne Ross Byrne, VDF and Ruddock have been released back to Leinster for this weekends round of fixtures.

That's a welcome boost to the squad especially at flyhalf where we're down to the bare bones. Sexton is obviously not available and there are serious doubts over Harry Byrne and Ciaran Frawley.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1366361885621186564?s=09

Exclamation Marc

Glad to see Ross Byrne back. He's getting no favours getting no game time either side of the coin and being Ireland's no. 3 (somehow).

irishbucsfan

I don’t think there’s been a single Irish coach who has either not been criticised for having a game plan or for “not having a plan B”

Absolutely amazing how quick that gets thrown out by fans online.

Schmidt was accused of it. By the end he was being accused for having too much of a plan.

Sangre

Ruddock and VDF releaesd but not Connors. Has he surpassed them both in Farrell's eyes I wonder.

arsebiscuits1

Interesting to see Conan has been retained. Must be impressing. Ditto Baird.

Thankful to get a 10 and a loosehead back as we really don't have any.

I think it will be a push for Harry to be involved 6 days after a failed HIA and one of Moore or O'Toole would give Greg a good bit of trouble on that side I feel (although he did well against O'Toole in the A game)

Dooley, Tracy, Bent
Molony, Toner
Murphy, Ruddock, VDF
McGrath, Ross
ROL, Osborne
Kearney, Jimmy, Kelleher
Sheehan, Ed, Clarkson, Fardy, Penny, HOS, Hawkshaw, O'Rielly

Still a barebones team. And incredibly harsh on Penny to miss out on a start.

bayern

was it a confirmed failed HIA?

bayern

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Interesting to see Conan has been retained. Must be impressing. Ditto Baird.

Thankful to get a 10 and a loosehead back as we really don't have any.

I think it will be a push for Harry to be involved 6 days after a failed HIA and one of Moore or O'Toole would give Greg a good bit of trouble on that side I feel (although he did well against O'Toole in the A game)

Dooley, Tracy, Bent
Molony, Toner
Murphy, Ruddock, VDF
McGrath, Ross
ROL, Osborne
Kearney, Jimmy, Kelleher
Sheehan, Ed, Clarkson, Fardy, Penny, HOS, Hawkshaw, O'Rielly

Still a barebones team. And incredibly harsh on Penny to miss out on a start.

you'd wonder if Penny will be fit.

arsebiscuits1

bayern wrote: »

was it a confirmed failed HIA?

According to Leinsters match report he was "withdrawn permanently for a Head Injury Assessment"

Doesn't specifically say he failed it but I can't imagine he passed it if they kept him off

bayern

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

According to Leinsters match report he was "withdrawn permanently for a Head Injury Assessment"

Doesn't specifically say he failed it but I can't imagine he passed it if they kept him off

remember previously they didn't bring players back on even when they passed.

still I Imagine Harry is unlikely to play against Ulster, same with Frawley.

Dubinusa

That was some physical match. I watched it 2x's last night and thought although it was sloppy at times, it was entertaining.
Fair play to Soroka. Just turned 20 and looked good in his 1st appearance. He's certainly one to watch in the future. Great effort.
Our penalty count was fairly high again. It's becoming an issue, imo. Josh Murphy was guilty of 2 or 3. His discipline needs to improve. He is really good in the line out. Overall, he's been very good and I think will put serious pressure on Ruddock for the 6 shirt, but he needs to be better with the discipline.
Dooley has been fantastic this past few weeks. He is carrying more and looks comfortable with that role. Penny is just brilliant. Great power for a smaller lad.
Hastings red card was bizarre. I've never seen anything like that before. I didn't realize he was leaving Glasgow next season and I really feel for them. They can't retain the top players. It's got to be devastating for the club. It's hard to compete when there's a scramble for the exit. It's no wonder they are struggling, losing Hogg. Hastings and Gray.
It's up to Belfast this week. Should be a cracker. Ulster will be almost full strength and we will have our hands full. I expect RB will start, as will Ed Byrne and hopefully JOB has shaken the cobwebs off. I thought he struggled this week. We should field a strong enough team. I think we can win this one. The squad is a little stretched so getting lads back is a boost.

Buer

Not getting Conan back is the most significant blow. As good as Penny was last night, he's an emergency No. 8. We'd be much better off with Conan there and Penny at 7. For this weekend, I suspect we'll move Ruddock to 8 but that would also mean we're likely to bench Penny who doesn't deserve to lose his spot.

As Dubinusa says above, Josh Murphy should be the one who loses his spot (and we might well do that with Ruddock going to 6). He has two clear weaknesses in his game and discipline is one of them (protecting the ball in contact at times, in my opinion). You cannot concede multiple unforced penalties like that without having your selection called into question. He was rightly taken off relatively early for Soroka.

The other place where we're really struggling (and have been consistently for about 3 months) is the 10/12 channel. I'd expect that we'll see both Byrne brothers start if HB is passed fit. Otherwise it could be RB, ROL and Osborne/JOB as our 10, 12, 13. Being down an entire back line due to test rugby is harsh but we'll just need to suck it up.

RugbyLover123

How far off an Ireland call up is Penny? Surely can’t be that far. He has stood out for me more so then Connors did at Pro14 level prior to his call up. Has been a stand out performer any time I’ve seen him.

salmocab

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

How far off an Ireland call up is Penny? Surely can’t be that far. He has stood out for me more so then Connors did at Pro14 level prior to his call up. Has been a stand out performer any time I’ve seen him.

Well off I’d think, there are just an absolute pile of back rows at the moment and unless he starts bigger games for leinster it’s hard to see him muscle in anytime soon. However he’s very young so there’s no panic either.

Buer

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

How far off an Ireland call up is Penny? Surely can’t be that far. He has stood out for me more so then Connors did at Pro14 level prior to his call up. Has been a stand out performer any time I’ve seen him.

Connors was brilliant ahead of his call up for the 2020 6N. He was hitting 20+ tackles a game, missing almost none and being extremely influential in some notable games. To get a call up, you need to be catching the eye in Europe or interpros. Connors started the Saracens game as well as 8 interpros in the 2019/20 season.

Penny has started 1 interpro game in each of the last 3 seasons (including this one). He's not going to win a call up unless he's featuring against those he's competing with for the call up.

There's far less notice taken from standing out in the run of the mill Pro14 games.

briandebum

Buer wrote: »

Connors was brilliant ahead of his call up for the 2020 6N. He was hitting 20+ tackles a game, missing almost none and being extremely influential in some notable games. To get a call up, you need to be catching the eye in Europe or interpros. Connors started the Saracens game as well as 8 interpros in the 2019/20 season.

Penny has started 1 interpro game in each of the last 3 seasons (including this one). He's not going to win a call up unless he's featuring against those he's competing with for the call up.

There's far less notice taken from standing out in the run of the mill Pro14 games.

I think Penny could be one who might need to move on from Leinster if he wants to get a look in for Ireland. As you've said, he probably needs to play well on a bigger stage before being picked for Ireland. His preferred position is 7. Will he ever be picked ahead of Connors or Van Der Flier for Leinster's European games?

He actually could end up preferred to them as he has been excellent whenever I've watched him. However, having essentially 3 starting opensides may not be sustainable in a year or two as Penny looks to push on past his developmental stage of just playing Pro14. Maybe they could fit him in at 6?

This is also without factoring in Dan Leavy.

molloyjh

We may see TOB return which would help somewhat. But we can afford to lose this one now so I'm not as fussed as I was a few days ago.

bayern

molloyjh wrote: »

We may see TOB return which would help somewhat. But we can afford to lose this one now so I'm not as fussed as I was a few days ago.

TOB weeks away afaik

bayern

briandebum wrote: »

I think Penny could be one who might need to move on from Leinster if he wants to get a look in for Ireland. As you've said, he probably needs to play well on a bigger stage before being picked for Ireland. His preferred position is 7. Will he ever be picked ahead of Connors or Van Der Flier for Leinster's European games?

He actually could end up preferred to them as he has been excellent whenever I've watched him. However, having essentially 3 starting opensides may not be sustainable in a year or two as Penny looks to push on past his developmental stage of just playing Pro14. Maybe they could fit him in at 6?

This is also without factoring in Dan Leavy.

what absolute... fiction

thomond2006

Munster need a backup for John Hodnett.

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

Munster need a backup for John Hodnett.

You already have one, Chris Cloete

stephen_n

sydthebeat wrote: »

You already have one, Chris Cloete

I assume he means One that’s not a penalty machine.

Dubinusa

Penny is a tidy player. Massive strenght in his carries. I hope he doesn't move on as there's no telling what Leavy's prognosis is going forward. We also seem to have one injured back row at all times and with the international windows, he should get plenty of minutes.

AbusesToilets

Tough on Ruddock, guessing that's likely the end of his Ireland adventures for the immediate future. Glad to have him back for Leinster at least. Happy for Baird to be getting more time, hope he nails down a spot in the 23.

bayern

Possible Leinster XV:

1. Peter Dooley
2. Sean Cronin
3. Michael Bent
4. Ross Molony
5. Scott Fardy
6. Josh Murphy
7. JVDF
8. Rhys Ruddock
9. Luke McGrath
10. Ross Byrne
11. Dave Kearney
12. Ciaran Fralwey
13. Rory O'Loughlin
14. Cian Kelleher
15. Jimmy O'Brien

Jump_In_Jack

What happened Frawley the last day before the match? Is he back fit again now?