Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

Lads, the word is asterisk

errlloyd

Batrachotox wrote: »

Lads, the word is asterisk

Cool, thanks man. I'll correct that in future, but leave my spelling mistake above because the cartoon posted is good craic.

Trojan

Batrachotox wrote: »

Lads, the word is asterisk

What a star!

awec

awec wrote: »

Which means, for example, that you end up in a situation where the likes of Racing, who are a better team than pretty much every Pro14 entrant other than Leinster, are actually ranked in tier 3 which is the same as Connacht!

I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your post, but despite having access to better player panels I don't think the French teams are 'better' than their pro14 equivalents and a lot of fixtures over a lot of time bear that out.

The two most successful teams in the six nations the last 10 years or so are Ireland and Wales. The most successful league in terms of European wins is the pro14.

At some point do we not just need to accept that the pro14 might be the strongest Northern Hemisphere league?

errlloyd

Deleted User wrote: »

At some point do we not just need to accept that the pro14 might be the strongest Northern Hemisphere league?

It's also clearly the weakest!

awec

The players who play for Ireland and Wales and in Heineken Cups play minimal games in the Pro14, so I'm not sure that really stacks up.

In fact, it could certainly be argued that the reason Ireland does so well in Europe and test rugby is the fact they only have to make a handful of league appearances each year.

Johnny Sexton play 6 league games for Leinster last year. Six!

It has often been pointed out on here that English and French teams do not prioritise Europe over their league to the same extent as Pro14 teams. Their leagues are more prestigious, and a higher standard. The Pro14 is essentially a tournament to keep players fit between european and test matches.

salmocab

awec wrote: »

The players who play for Ireland and Wales and in Heineken Cups play minimal games in the Pro14, so I'm not sure that really stacks up.

In fact, it could certainly be argued that the reason Ireland does so well in Europe and test rugby is the fact they only have to make a handful of league appearances each year.

We also had people tell us that it’s the reason we didn’t perform in the WC, the bit I see of the premiership doesn’t strike me as being particularly better than the pro 14.
When English teams do well in international or European rugby it’s because they play week in and out in a tough league but when they do bad it’s because they play week in and out in a tough league.

awec

salmocab wrote: »

We also had people tell us that it’s the reason we didn’t perform in the WC, the bit I see of the premiership doesn’t strike me as being particularly better than the pro 14.
When English teams do well in international or European rugby it’s because they play week in and out in a tough league but when they do bad it’s because they play week in and out in a tough league.

I don't believe this has any bearing to be honest.

If you look at the Heineken Cup winners the past decade, it's been Toulon, Toulouse, Leinster and Saracens. These are all big money, big resources teams.

I wouldn't really correlate the standard of the league with how that league's teams do in Europe.

FrannoFan

errlloyd wrote: »

It's also clearly the weakest!

English league is not great at all.
i think the rabo has the weakest teams but not weakest overall.

2 english teams won in europe last week.

I think as pointed out League doesn't necessarily have a bearing on who finishes top of europe.

French league format is crazy. finish 6th and still win?

I'd say french league is toughest (quality of teams/length of season etc)

not convinced Quality of English league is that high.

aloooof

FrannoFan wrote: »

English league is not great at all.
i think the rabo has the weakest teams but not weakest overall.

2 english teams won in europe last week.

I think as pointed out League doesn't necessarily have a bearing on who finishes top of europe.

French league format is crazy. finish 6th and still win?

I'd say french league is toughest (quality of teams/length of season etc)

not convinced Quality of English league is that high.

That can effectively happen in the Pro14 too, with the 2 QF matches.

The Lost Sheep

SuperCet wrote: »

I think there is more of a huge asterix (rather than the little Gaul) beside Sarries wins over the last few years, given that they have been found guilty of systematic cheating for the last 3 years and have taken the punishment for it.

I dont think there is. We dont really know how many players this would have affected in terms of them leaving sarries if this wasnt in place and they would still have been in champions cup and doing very well...

errlloyd wrote: »

I think by this logic there is always an Asterix there.

I love the Champions Cup, but the meritocracy of it is always questionable. The truth is that teams in the same pool end up experiencing different difficulty in their games depending on when they fall, and teams in the same tier of the draw end up in VASTLY different pools depending on a myriad of factors.

Those advantages are then compounded by a knockout stage that just exentuates whatever dumb luck your team ended up getting the draw and the pool stage.

We are often gifted with teams that are among the best getting to the final. But very often very good teams don't even get close to the final. That's cup rugby.

talking about how fixtures fall isnt really a factor. You play everyone home and away. That shouldn't be a factor.

awec wrote: »

The competition isn't really designed to be a meritocracy. For example, when creating the pools, the competition weights the three leagues equally, when this is not really reality. Teams aren't ranked based on their actual ability, they're ranked relative to the rest of their league. Which means, for example, that you end up in a situation where the likes of Racing, who are a better team than pretty much every Pro14 entrant other than Leinster, are actually ranked in tier 3 which is the same as Connacht!

This, combined with wanting to have at least 1 team from each league in each pool (which is important otherwise the competition would just be like the league) means you can end up with some really strong pools and some really weak ones.

The change I'd make is to do away with the automatic pairings for the quarter final stage and have a draw instead. In any given pairing, whatever team was highest ranked plays at home. And then another draw at semi final stage.

really the European seeding should be mix of current league position and past European record ie mix of Heineken cup and champions cup ranking methods.
I wouldnt go to an open draw for the quarters. There should be form of reward for doing well in pool stage.

FrannoFan wrote: »

English league is not great at all.
i think the rabo has the weakest teams but not weakest overall.

2 english teams won in europe last week.

I think as pointed out League doesn't necessarily have a bearing on who finishes top of europe.

French league format is crazy. finish 6th and still win?

I'd say french league is toughest (quality of teams/length of season etc)

not convinced Quality of English league is that high.

French league is same as pro14. You can finish 6th and win league.

Granny15

FrannoFan wrote: »

English league is not great at all.
i think the rabo has the weakest teams but not weakest overall.

2 english teams won in europe last week.

I think as pointed out League doesn't necessarily have a bearing on who finishes top of europe.

French league format is crazy. finish 6th and still win?

I'd say french league is toughest (quality of teams/length of season etc)

not convinced Quality of English league is that high.

My view in terms of quality/toughness of the 3 main European Leagues is - French 1st English 2nd Pro14 3rd.

The strength in depth of French teams delves deep into the ProD2 where a third of teams could compete in the Top 14 - the same cannot be said of English second division teams.

Half of Pro14 teams would be sitting around mid table in the ProD2 if they existed in France.

Shefwedfan

Granny15 wrote: »

My view in terms of quality/toughness of the 3 main European Leagues is - French 1st English 2nd Pro14 3rd.

The strength in depth of French teams delves deep into the ProD2 where a third of teams could compete in the Top 14 - the same cannot be said of English second division teams.

Half of Pro14 teams would be sitting around mid table in the ProD2 if they existed in France.

I think you are massively overrating the French and English leagues.....


For instance the French teams don't bother trying to win the majority of the time when away from home. The fitness of any of the team are poor bar the couple of teams at the top.



Talk to some of the players who have gone to England and they where amazed at how backwards the training was for the Premiership teams. Contact training during the week, something Irish clubs stopped 10 odd years ago.



Yes the French and English teams have more money. But a lot of average players in both leagues are getting huge money. That's why if Ireland did let overseas players into the Ireland squad the exodus would be huge.

errlloyd

Shefwedfan wrote: »

For instance the French teams don't bother trying to win the majority of the time when away from home. The fitness of any of the team are poor bar the couple of teams at the top.

As of last year this is way worse in the pro14 sadly.

Shefwedfan

errlloyd wrote: »

As of last year this is way worse in the pro14 sadly.

Against the likes of Munster/Leinster then yes the teams are throwing the games. If the teams are playing each other they go after them.....


That's why it is frustrating when you see Munster playing a full senior team at a home match when they are playing the B side from another tea,

Zzippy

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Against the likes of Munster/Leinster then yes the teams are throwing the games. If the teams are playing each other they go after them.....


That's why it is frustrating when you see Munster playing a full senior team at a home match when they are playing the B side from another tea,

What teams played B sides against Irish teams last year? And why is it frustrating when Leinster rest so many first team players on a regular basis? Are other teams not allowed to rotate?

Clegg

I thought we would select Fardy at 6, Ruddock at 8 and keep Toner and Ryan in the row. I prefer this named team though. Delighted that we get to see what Deegan can do in a full strength side.

15. Rob Kearney (211)
14. Jordan Larmour (40)
13. Garry Ringrose (66)
12. Robbie Henshaw (38)
11. James Lowe (35)
10. Johnny Sexton (161) CAPTAIN
9. Luke McGrath (115)
1. Cian Healy (210)
2. Rónan Kelleher (8)
3. Tadhg Furlong (102)
4. Scott Fardy (49)
5. James Ryan (32)
6. Rhys Ruddock (163)
7. Josh van der Flier (74)
8. Max Deegan (53)

16. James Tracy (99)
17. Ed Byrne (46)
18. Andrew Porter (55)
19. Devin Toner (237)
20. Josh Murphy (26)
21. Jamison Gibson-Park (77)
22. Ross Byrne (77)
23. Dave Kearney (140)

Faugheen

After last week I was fully sure that Deegan would get the start.

Happy with that team again. Looking forward to seeing Henshaw back fit and firing.

Not sure how I feel about that team selection.

Not much impact on the bench so we will go hard out of the blocks and then shut the game down in the last 20.

Squidgy Black

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not sure how I feel about that team selection.

Not much impact on the bench so we will go hard out of the blocks and then shut the game down in the last 20.

Porter, JGP and Dave will certainly bring a big impact off the bench (considering the performances Kearney's had so far this season).

Bring Toner on and shift Fardy to 6 for whichever backrow what is running out of gas considering with Deegan and Ruddock there it's an extremely versatile backrow that can cover all 3 spots.

sydthebeat

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure how I feel about that team selection.

Not much impact on the bench so we will go hard out of the blocks and then shut the game down in the last 20.

ah would ya lie down !!!

there are lots of teams playing this weekend who would love to have that reserve bench. Its a bench to 'continue' rather than 'change'.

Interested Observer

sydthebeat wrote: »

ah would ya lie down !!!

there are lots of teams playing this weekend who would love to have that reserve bench. Its a bench to 'continue' rather than 'change'.

The issue with that is if we're losing we may continue to lose. It's definitely not the strongest bench Leinster have fielded in recent times. As well as D.Kearney is playing, I don't see him coming on and changing the game. I would have kept him in the team actually with Larmour at 15.

Squidgy Black

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Porter, JGP and Dave will certainly bring a big impact off the bench (considering the performances Kearney's had so far this season).

Bring Toner on and shift Fardy to 6 for whichever backrow what is running out of gas considering with Deegan and Ruddock there it's an extremely versatile backrow that can cover all 3 spots.

I dunno. Larmour really needs games like this to develop at 15 in my opinion. I've spent years defending Kearney on here and although he's likely still our best 15, he's unlikely to be around next season.

Similarly Toner on the bench feels like a bit of a waste but it suggests to me that we plan on forcing play into as many set pieces as possible in the final quarte. JGP is going to be kicking the leather off the ball.

Weather forecast for tomorrow afternoon suggests light rain throughout and temperatures of around 11 degrees.

sydthebeat

Interested Observer wrote: »

The issue with that is if we're losing we may continue to lose. It's definitely not the strongest bench Leinster have fielded in recent times. As well as D.Kearney is playing, I don't see him coming on and changing the game. I would have kept him in the team actually with Larmour at 15.

what other back 3 player, who covers full back and wing, would you have in there ahead of D Kearney?

If you need a try to win the game do you want ROL, Hugo Keenan, C Kelleher, A Byrne or D kearney coming off the bench?

Interested Observer

sydthebeat wrote: »

what other back 3 player, who covers full back and wing, would you have in there ahead of D Kearney?

If you need a try to win the game do you want ROL, Hugo Keenan, C Kelleher, A Byrne or D kearney coming off the bench?

What?

I very clearly said I'd have had Dave Kearney starting. It's right there in the post you quoted.

sydthebeat

Deleted User wrote: »

Similarly Toner on the bench feels like a bit of a waste but it suggests to me that we plan on forcing play into as many set pieces as possible in the final quarte. JGP is going to be kicking the leather off the ball.

its away in france against the french league leaders.....

of course we're going to focus on set piece and pressure.
thats a basic template on how to play away in europe against good teams.

hopefully by the time the bech are released we will be enough ahead thats the status quo continues.

Clegg

Kelleher is the real deal, isn't he? He's leapfrogged Byrne and Tracy despite having a fraction of the caps. Cronin won't find it easy to regain his place when he returns from injury.

ionadnapokot

Clegg wrote: »

Kelleher is the real deal, isn't he? He's leapfrogged Byrne and Tracy despite having a fraction of the caps. Cronin won't find it easy to regain his place when he returns from injury.

Its now beyond reasonable doubt that he should be making his debut v Scotland. & Starting.

Would have preferred to see Larmour retained at 15 - the heir apparent at 15 for province & country
edit:
Maybe Rob is going to stay?

Clegg

Tuisova isn't in the Lyon squad. That's huge for Leinster. He's a phenomenal talent and they're worse off with him not there. They've also changed their front 5 and half backs from last week.

Lyon: Toby Arnol; Xavier Mignot, Thibaut Regard, Charlie Ngatai, Noa Nakaitaci; Jonathan Wisniewski, Baptiste Couilloud (capt); Xavier Chiocci, Mickael Ivaldi, Demba Bamba; Virgile Bruni, Hendrik Roodt; Julien Puricelli, Liam Gill, Carl Fearns.

Replacements: Jeremie Maurouard, Raphael Chaume, Francisco Gomez Kodela, Etienne Oosthuizen, Loann Goujon, Jonathan Pélissié, Jean-Marcellin Buttin, Rudi Wulf,

FrannoFan

Deleted User wrote: »

I dunno. Larmour really needs games like this to develop at 15 in my opinion. I've spent years defending Kearney on here and although he's likely still our best 15, he's unlikely to be around next season.

Similarly Toner on the bench feels like a bit of a waste but it suggests to me that we plan on forcing play into as many set pieces as possible in the final quarte. JGP is going to be kicking the leather off the ball.

Weather forecast for tomorrow afternoon suggests light rain throughout and temperatures of around 11 degrees.

How is toner on the bench a waste? Like should be starting ahead of Fardy or do you think away games in France the Heineken cup is the time to play 20 year old second rows?