Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

FrannoFan

FrannoFan wrote: »

How is toner on the bench a waste? Like should be starting ahead of Fardy or do you think away games in France the Heineken cup is the time to play 20 year old second rows?

This season? Absolutely.

This is probably Fardy's last season and we've no idea how much longer Dev is playing for. I'd much prefer we started exposing some of the depth we've been building in the second row.

We either do it this year in a controlled manner, or we're forced into it within the next two seasons. It's good to see both Deegan and Doris get starts during the pools but we've to bring another player capable of starting a game like this through in the second row fairly pronto.

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

its away in france against the french league leaders.....

of course we're going to focus on set piece and pressure.
thats a basic template on how to play away in europe against good teams.

hopefully by the time the bech are released we will be enough ahead thats the status quo continues.

That to me is a bench for closing out a game, not chasing a score. If we're ahead on the scoreboard we'll keep Lyon throwing to their line out between their 22 and half way. Wash rinse repeat, Toner will disrupt the odd one.

Clegg wrote: »

Kelleher is the real deal, isn't he? He's leapfrogged Byrne and Tracy despite having a fraction of the caps. Cronin won't find it easy to regain his place when he returns from injury.

Terrible time for Cronin to get injured. At 33 he's probably only another year or two but his absence has left a big gap for Kelleher to run through and he's making the most of it.

Be an interesting battle when Cronin is back. Very timely for Leinster and Ireland - the Scannell v Kelleher rows should be fun!

Shefwedfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That to me is a bench for closing out a game, not chasing a score. If we're ahead on the scoreboard we'll keep Lyon throwing to their line out between their 22 and half way. Wash rinse repeat, Toner will disrupt the odd one.



Terrible time for Cronin to get injured. At 33 he's probably only another year or two but his absence has left a big gap for Kelleher to run through and he's making the most of it.

Be an interesting battle when Cronin is back. Very timely for Leinster and Ireland - the Scannell v Kelleher rows should be fun!

Is it a row? Scannell has never even pushed Best for a starting role, if Kelleher continues as is he should be starter....the question would be Cronin v Scannell on bench

The Lost Sheep

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Is it a row? Scannell has never even pushed Best for a starting role, if Kelleher continues as is he should be starter....the question would be Cronin v Scannell on bench

that is seriously overestimating Kelleher(which only happen to some players.....).
Kelleher is far from starter or near being it. Scannell is still that bit ahead for me based on what he can do.
Scannell hasn't got past best and may have got more game time if best wasnt captain/so strong as team leader and Cronin offered something so different off bench.

Interested Observer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Is it a row? Scannell has never even pushed Best for a starting role, if Kelleher continues as is he should be starter....the question would be Cronin v Scannell on bench

This is some straight up bizarre logic.

Aside from that, there's not much doubt now that Kelleher should be making a 6N squad, and I think his start here is a big statement in how the Leinster management trust him.

kingofthekong

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

that is seriously overestimating Kelleher(which only happen to some players.....).
Kelleher is far from starter or near being it. Scannell is still that bit ahead for me based on what he can do.
Scannell hasn't got past best and may have got more game time if best wasnt captain/so strong as team leader and Cronin offered something so different off bench.

Scannel has been bang average, wouldnt start for any other six nations team. Kelleher has shown far more promise then Scannell has ever shown in the last 3 years.

I think you 'will only happen to some players' line is a slight dig at people overrating Leinster players? may not be may be regarding under age players being ovrhyped....nonetheless I think a Munster bias has you placing Scannell in the 2 jersey for Ireland

Faugheen

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

that is seriously overestimating Kelleher(which only happen to some players.....).
Kelleher is far from starter or near being it. Scannell is still that bit ahead for me based on what he can do.
Scannell hasn't got past best and may have got more game time if best wasnt captain/so strong as team leader and Cronin offered something so different off bench.

‘If Kelleher continues as he is’ being the key phrase here.

He’s the form hooker by a mile at the moment and if he can pass the test he faces tomorrow then why shouldn’t he be considered?

I’ve never seen Niall Scannell as a long-term solution to hooker (or Cronin for that matter). Both of them have flattered to deceive more often than not and if Kelleher is outperforming them at the top club level then why not?

This is coming from someone who said we needed to wait and see how he gets on in Europe before we talk about it only a couple of weeks ago.

Tomorrow and Saints away (if he plays) will be massive tests for him.

Interested Observer

Scannell has been a weird one. He started 2 tests down in Aus in the summer of 2018 where Ireland played some excellent stuff and obviously won the series. That should have been a clear enough signal he was ready to step up. I can't say I've watched every minute of him but he either wasn't given another proper chance in green (it became irrelevant how badly some players played for Ireland - they were starting no matter what) or his form might have dipped, he had some competition at Munster from Marshall and I think he had a few wobbles such as that game against Racing where he had a bit of a meltdown at the lineout. I think he's a decent option and he's not old for a front row at all.

Shefwedfan

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

that is seriously overestimating Kelleher(which only happen to some players.....).
Kelleher is far from starter or near being it. Scannell is still that bit ahead for me based on what he can do.
Scannell hasn't got past best and may have got more game time if best wasnt captain/so strong as team leader and Cronin offered something so different off bench.

Scannell is nearly 30 now and he has never pushed Best to start. Cronin either by the way

Why do we think that suddenly Scannell or Cronin are going to massively improve since the WC?



Would it not be better to keep one of Scannel/Cronin in squad. Probably Scannell and invest in Kelleher and maybe another young hooker?

PS I did mention if he continues as he is......

The Lost Sheep

kingofthekong wrote: »

Scannel has been bang average, wouldnt start for any other six nations team. Kelleher has shown far more promise then Scannell has ever shown in the last 3 years.

I think you 'will only happen to some players' line is a slight dig at people overrating Leinster players? may not be may be regarding under age players being ovrhyped....nonetheless I think a Munster bias has you placing Scannell in the 2 jersey for Ireland

irony of this post. Kelleher has 8 appearances for Leinster. Scored few tries but has not at all shown more progress than others.
It is both. Leinster players are being overhyped and any young player who does well in a few games gets pushed by far too many here to immediately be promoted to higher level. Steady on.

Shefwedfan

Discussion should be moved to Ireland thread......not part of Leinster thread

Interested Observer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Scannell is nearly 30 now and he has never pushed Best to start. Cronin either by the way

Why do we think that suddenly Scannell or Cronin are going to massively improve since the WC?

He's 27. That is an eternity away from being 30 as a rugby player, especially in a position where our last start just retired at age 37, so stop being so disingenuous.

Secondly, whether he pushed Best or not is irrelevant to the question as to whether he's the best option now in the instance that Best has retired.

aloooof

Interested Observer wrote: »

Scannell has been a weird one. He started 2 tests down in Aus in the summer of 2018 where Ireland played some excellent stuff and obviously won the series. That should have been a clear enough signal he was ready to step up.

The weird thing about that was that Scannell wasn't even in the squad initially until Best got injured. I think Herring played fairly poorly in the first Test and Scannell went on to start the final 2 Tests, which we won.

Imo, given the circumstances, that probably tells us more about how little Schmidt rated Cronin than how much he rated Scannell.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Scannell is nearly 30 now and he has never pushed Best to start. Cronin either by the way

He's only 27!

Shefwedfan

Ok I thought he was 28 going on 29.....but still discussion for Ireland thread

kingofthekong

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

irony of this post. Kelleher has 8 appearances for Leinster. Scored few tries but has not at all shown more progress than others.
It is both. Leinster players are being overhyped and any young player who does well in a few games gets pushed by far too many here to immediately be promoted to higher level. Steady on.

Hasnt shown more progress then others? what exactly have you been watching? Scannell has never looked anything better than bang average. As I said already he wouldnt start for any other six nations team..

Your massively overatting Munster players by that standard then.

If your bar for Ireland is as low as 7th best hooker in the six nations should start for Ireland then thats fairly sad.

A lot of Leinsters young players are better then their Munster counterparts as much as that might hurt a Munster fanboy but its the truth..

AdamD

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not sure how I feel about that team selection.

Not much impact on the bench so we will go hard out of the blocks and then shut the game down in the last 20.

People seem to have a notion that impact off the bench has to be based purely on athletic dynamism. Doesn't really add up. If we have either an attacking or defensive line out at the end of the game, either to contest in the air, attack or defend a maul, you take Toner every single time over an athletic 'impact' sub. Similarly you need lads who can actually scrum too.

Squidgy Black

I do think there's a bit of blue tinted glasses about Kelleher, and I'll admit I'm guilty of it myself, but he does look like a superb prospect.

I'd love to see him get into camp for the summer tour. I think the 6N is probably a bit soon, we really need to see how he gets on as the season progresses.

Him starting over Byrne and Tracy isn't exactly a massive feat, I think it's been fairly clear that neither are the option for Leinster, Tracy in particular who looked like his was going to take over from Strauss and Cronin when he broke into the scene and picked up his handful of Ireland caps, but he couldn't be further from that point in his career now.

I do think he'll be pressing for a spot against the likes of Scannell and Herring eventually, but I think he's not 100% there yet and a couple of big performances in Europe (and if he can keep Cronin on the bench) will certainly help his case.

salmocab

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I do think there's a bit of blue tinted glasses about Kelleher, and I'll admit I'm guilty of it myself, but he does look like a superb prospect.

I'd love to see him get into camp for the summer tour. I think the 6N is probably a bit soon, we really need to see how he gets on as the season progresses.

Him starting over Byrne and Tracy isn't exactly a massive feat, I think it's been fairly clear that neither are the option for Leinster, Tracy in particular who looked like his was going to take over from Strauss and Cronin when he broke into the scene and picked up his handful of Ireland caps, but he couldn't be further from that point in his career now.

I do think he'll be pressing for a spot against the likes of Scannell and Herring eventually, but I think he's not 100% there yet and a couple of big performances in Europe (and if he can keep Cronin on the bench) will certainly help his case.

What happened was after the WC everyone was keen to throw the baby out with the bath water, we needed fresh blood and when Kelleher started well lots were calling for him to go straight into the Irish team, I’m actually not so sure it was blue tinted as much as a back lash against the green tinted establishment.

The Lost Sheep

kingofthekong wrote: »

Hasnt shown more progress then others? what exactly have you been watching? Scannell has never looked anything better than bang average. As I said already he wouldnt start for any other six nations team..

Your massively overatting Munster players by that standard then.

If your bar for Ireland is as low as 7th best hooker in the six nations should start for Ireland then thats fairly sad.

A lot of Leinsters young players are better then their Munster counterparts as much as that might hurt a Munster fanboy but its the truth..

The irony of this. There is an extreme blue tint to so so many views on kelleher.
Its nonsense to say scannell had only ever been bang average.
We see it all the time here with leinster posters who are majority here. This is nothing to do with Munster.

aloooof

kingofthekong wrote: »

Hasnt shown more progress then others? what exactly have you been watching? Scannell has never looked anything better than bang average. As I said already he wouldnt start for any other six nations team..

Your massively overatting Munster players by that standard then.

If your bar for Ireland is as low as 7th best hooker in the six nations should start for Ireland then thats fairly sad.

A lot of Leinsters young players are better then their Munster counterparts as much as that might hurt a Munster fanboy but its the truth.

I don't wish to speak for The Lost Sheep, but clearly his bar for starting Ireland hooker is the best Irish qualified hooker. (Wherever they rank among the other 6N's hookers is irrelevant, they're not available to us).

You happen to think the best option is Kelleher. The Lost Sheep happens to think it's Scannell. And that's fine, there's a discussion to be had there.

But you simply stating opinion as fact doesn't make it so.

Out of interest, to try and move the discussion along, what areas do you think Kelleher is better at? What areas do you think Scannell is better at?

Shefwedfan

Guys, I was just answering a post.....we have gone off into an Ireland discussion so maybe move to Ireland thread. A Kelleher v Scannell conversation has nothing to do with Leinster

Shefwedfan

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I do think there's a bit of blue tinted glasses about Kelleher, and I'll admit I'm guilty of it myself, but he does look like a superb prospect.

It's the Leinster thread, of course you expect blue tinted glasses.....

Like on Munster thread with them going on abut Mathewson been the best 9 in Ireland :P


I didn't see that comment turning into a big debate.....

connemara man

Enough of the provincial stirring, Tinted glasses baiting nonsense

Cards will get handed out!

connemara man

connemara man wrote: »

Enough of the provincial stirring, Tinted glasses baiting nonsense

Cards will get handed out!

I'm not going to lie, I fully intended for this to happen

salmocab

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not going to lie, I fully intended for this to happen

Your like a Bond villain

Squidgy Black

aloooof wrote: »

Out of interest, to try and move the discussion along, what areas do you think Kelleher is better at? What areas do you think Scannell is better at?

So far Kelleher's been pretty clinical in the loose, 7 tries in 6 games this season. His throws have been fairly on point too, the Leinster lineout has been functioning fairly well (granted he's throwing to Toner quite often but still).

Shefwedfan

Squidgy Black wrote: »

So far Kelleher's been pretty clinical in the loose, 7 tries in 6 games this season. His throws have been fairly on point too, the Leinster lineout has been functioning fairly well (granted he's throwing to Toner quite often but still).

Plenty of hookers have thrown to Toner and missed him :P

Clegg

Always nervous about away games in France. They're difficult fixtures no matter what. But I think Leinster get sucked in to the game the home side wants to play too often. We regularly undrperform in France. But beat Lyon tomorrow and the pool is ours, I think.

typhoony

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

irony of this post. Kelleher has 8 appearances for Leinster. Scored few tries but has not at all shown more progress than others.
It is both. Leinster players are being overhyped and any young player who does well in a few games gets pushed by far too many here to immediately be promoted to higher level. Steady on.

he could have at least another 8 appearances for Leinster before the 6 nations starts, if he continues to play well and Leinster keep winning I can't see how he's not the No.1 choice for Ireland. remember there was no stand-out competition to Best at least not until Best's form dipped in the last year

prawnsambo

Who's the Scottish commentator who keeps calling Furlong 'Tag'?