Tesla Model 3 thread - V2.0

arestifamiliar

Nedved85 wrote: »

Herself has a wireless charger on her phone - My next one will have it too. Time to invest

waiting for my gen2 to arrive, and the usb hub. It actually is coming by train (8000 miles on the Yiwu train) , shipped 3.5 weeks ago, ended up in Belarus , then Duisburg in germany this morning. Hoping it will arrive this month...

MarkN

Personal leasing now possible with them, trade ins now possible (they only use traders for your trade though) and PCP on S and X.

EVGuy

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you not find it more fatiguing to have to supervise the car all the time though when AP is active ?

No, once you understand what it does and doesn't do, it can be very relaxing. Motorways and gently winding roads are almost perfect IME, so you can spend your time (main focus) looking out for potential issues, i.e. less time on controlling the car more on observation.

There is a learning curve involved, as with everything.

unkel

EVGuy wrote: »

No, once you understand what it does and doesn't do, it can be very relaxing. Motorways and gently winding roads are almost perfect IME, so you can spend your time (main focus) looking out for potential issues, i.e. less time on controlling the car more on observation.

There is a learning curve involved, as with everything.

Agreed. Still a pain that most EVs (like Teslas) force you to keep your hands on the steering wheel and keep pressure applied to it. A system that monitors if the driver is alert (but doesn't require hands on the steering wheel) is superior imho. Musk doesn't agree with me there though.

EVGuy

EVGuy wrote: »

No, once you understand what it does and doesn't do, it can be very relaxing. Motorways and gently winding roads are almost perfect IME, so you can spend your time (main focus) looking out for potential issues, i.e. less time on controlling the car more on observation.

There is a learning curve involved, as with everything.

Cool and is this AP1 or 2 ?

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Agreed. Still a pain that most EVs (like Teslas) force you to keep your hands on the steering wheel and keep pressure applied to it. A system that monitors if the driver is alert (but doesn't require hands on the steering wheel) is superior imho. Musk doesn't agree with me there though.

Touching the screen to say, change temp, volume, Spotify tunes etc should also count as being alert.

Lumen

unkel wrote: »

Agreed. Still a pain that most EVs (like Teslas) force you to keep your hands on the steering wheel and keep pressure applied to it. A system that monitors if the driver is alert (but doesn't require hands on the steering wheel) is superior imho. Musk doesn't agree with me there though.

I don't agree with you either.

The Tesla approach dramatically reduces the reaction time when AP decides to bail out mid-corner and the steering self-centres you into a ditch.

EVGuy

Deleted User wrote: »

Cool and is this AP1 or 2 ?

AP hardware version 3, MCU2, 2020.20.12 s/w

Lumen wrote: »

I don't agree with you either.

The Tesla approach dramatically reduces the reaction time when AP decides to bail out mid-corner and the steering self-centres you into a ditch.

Yes and I'm sure when they are at "multiple "9s" (99.99xxxx%+) in confidence they will allow hands off AP.

zg3409

The Irish operation of electric car maker Tesla recorded sales of €15 million last year, up by €4 million on 2018.

Elon Musk’s automotive business operates one dealership in the Republic, in Sandyford Industrial Estate, which sold 270 new cars in 2019, compared with 120 the previous year.

The arrival of the more affordable Model 3 family saloon drove the growth, accounting for 187 of last year’s new Tesla registrations. Of these 131 were registered in November, making it the best-selling new car on the Irish market that month.

https://www-irishtimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/tesla-s-irish-income-rises-driven-by-sales-surge-for-model-3-1.4279791?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&mode=amp#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Ftransport-and-tourism%2Ftesla-s-irish-income-rises-driven-by-sales-surge-for-model-3-1.4279791

unkel

Lumen wrote: »

I don't agree with you either.

The Tesla approach dramatically reduces the reaction time when AP decides to bail out mid-corner and the steering self-centres you into a ditch.

You're presuming that hands on the wheel means the driver is alert! The driver could have their eyes closed (or watching a movie) - isn't this what caused several / the majoriy of auto pilot deaths in the USA? Or have something else in place that tricks the system into thinking the hands are on the wheel, like a water bottle or a bag of coins in the steering wheel.

Imho a superior system is one that monitors the driver (their face) for alertness. It's not just my opinion, most of the AI world has this view, Musk is an outlier here

Lumen

unkel wrote: »

You're presuming that hands on the wheel means the driver is alert! The driver could have their eyes closed (or watching a movie) - isn't this what caused several / the majoriy of auto pilot deaths in the USA? Or have something else in place that tricks the system into thinking the hands are on the wheel, like a water bottle or a bag of coins in the steering wheel.

Imho a superior system is one that monitors the driver (their face) for alertness. It's not just my opinion, most of the AI world has this view, Musk is an outlier here

Ah yes. I would be in favour of both.

TBH I find the whole idea of disengaging the driver is nuts when we have so many road deaths. Think of the improvements to road safety if Tesla focused their efforts on actual driver assistance, i.e. in-car driver training. Making humans better!

But I guess nobody would buy that because everyone thinks they are an excellent driver.

Royale with Cheese

zg3409 wrote: »

https://www-irishtimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/tesla-s-irish-income-rises-driven-by-sales-surge-for-model-3-1.4279791?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&mode=amp#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Ftransport-and-tourism%2Ftesla-s-irish-income-rises-driven-by-sales-surge-for-model-3-1.4279791

Will they get their ass in gear and build a few of those coming soon superchargers now then?

unkel

unkel wrote: »

You're presuming that hands on the wheel means the driver is alert! The driver could have their eyes closed (or watching a movie) - isn't this what caused several / the majoriy of auto pilot deaths in the USA? Or have something else in place that tricks the system into thinking the hands are on the wheel, like a water bottle or a bag of coins in the steering wheel.

Imho a superior system is one that monitors the driver (their face) for alertness. It's not just my opinion, most of the AI world has this view, Musk is an outlier here

I think GMs version monitors eyes, face etc.

cnocbui

Lumen wrote: »

I don't agree with you either.

The Tesla approach dramatically reduces the reaction time when AP decides to bail out mid-corner and the steering self-centres you into a ditch.

If you are lucky, it's a ditch, and not a cliff, as just happened to an ex Tesla driver in California.

jusmeig

AP at the moment should come with about 20 confirmation pop-ups for safety.
My list of AP woes/wins to date:

Motorway is fine, but I find traffic aware cruise control more useful as I don't have FSD, so i'm changing lane and having to activate and deactivate AP all the time (U know how everyone in Ireland drives in the middle lane and refers to the right land as the "fast lane"...sigh)

I've had it brake aggressively when a cyclist was in his cycle lane, not near me.
If there was a car close behind, it may well have hit me.

It brakes way to aggressively when a car is turning off the road in front of you, and does not accelerate quick enough once its cleared.

It activates on a 100m patch of road only to deactivate once the markings are harder to see -> just don't show the activation in this case unless it can get you up the road.

It's fine on well marked non motorway roads, but again its a little nerve wracking at first when its cornering at 80km on secondary roads. It does brake also mind.

I'm enjoying playing around with it, but once the family are in the car i'll only use it on motoroways.

AndyBoBandy

^^^ Pretty much all this.

I will disengage TACC on non motorway roads if someone is following (too) close behind me.

unkel

Lumen wrote: »

Think of the improvements to road safety if Tesla focused their efforts on actual driver assistance, i.e. in-car driver training. Making humans better!

The horse has bolted on that one. Even as primitive as level 2 autonomous driving systems like Tesla's AutoPilot are now, they are already safer than humans. And there is only one way forward to further improve on this. Less human involvement in driving. Not more.

Lumen

unkel wrote: »

The horse has bolted on that one. Even as primitive as level 2 autonomous driving systems like Tesla's AutoPilot are now, they are already safer than humans.

AFAIK that is not proven, it's just a claim by Tesla based on data they will not release.

I think it's likely that Teslas are safer than other cars due to good crash safety from the battery pack design and the fact that people tend to keep within the speed limits to preserve range, but I wouldn't put it down to Autopilot.

unkel

Lumen wrote: »

AFAIK that is not proven, it's just a claim by Tesla based on data they will not release.

Oh no, it's proven alright. It was cheaper to insure a Model 3 if you ordered it with the optional €1000 AutoPilot last year. Widely reported in the EU by users at the time.

Lumen

unkel wrote: »

Oh no, it's proven alright. It was cheaper to insure a Model 3 if you ordered it with the optional €1000 AutoPilot last year. Widely reported in the EU by users at the time.

That only proves that some insurance companies at one point thought that vehicles with the option might crash less or more lightly.

I can find evidence of the opposite, e.g.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/12/tech/tesla-autopilot-gm-super-cruise-safety/index.html

JohnC.

Lumen wrote: »

That only proves that some insurance companies at one point thought that vehicles with the option might crash less or more lightly.

I can find evidence of the opposite, e.g.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/12/tech/tesla-autopilot-gm-super-cruise-safety/index.html

That does not say what you appear to think it says.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Oh no, it's proven alright. It was cheaper to insure a Model 3 if you ordered it with the optional €1000 AutoPilot last year. Widely reported in the EU by users at the time.

I suppose with autopilot there's no traffic light grand prix events ........ some Tesla drivers want to smoke ICE cars at every light I believe :pac:

jusmeig

Tesla's report shows:

One accident per 3.34 million miles driven in which drivers had Autopilot engaged.
One accident or crash-like event for every 1.92 million miles driven.

You can react in many different ways to this:

FAKENEWS, not real does not exist. If you go this route, all bets are off.
Ultimately you are responsible for your safety, as you have to choose to activate it.
On motorway driving, it will likely crash far less if compared to humans (because we do mad silly sh£t and cause accidents all the time)

jusmeig

jusmeig wrote: »

Tesla's report shows:

One accident per 3.34 million miles driven in which drivers had Autopilot engaged.
One accident or crash-like event for every 1.92 million miles driven.

.............

Fairly startling that without autopilot engaged Tesla tallys 12 times less accidents then the data mentioned here for the average US driver in 2012
(I presume the One accident or crash-like event for every 1.92 million miles driven is without Autopilot engaged from the segment above?)

https://mashable.com/2012/08/07/google-driverless-cars-safer-than-you/?europe=true

......... the average U.S. driver has one accident roughly every 165,000 miles.

Lumen

jusmeig wrote: »

TYou can react in many different ways to this

Or you could just apply some reasonable skepticism based on actually using the thing and wait for peer reviewed studies based on audited data before drinking Elon's man milk.

jusmeig

Lumen wrote: »

Or you could just apply some reasonable skepticism based on actually using the thing and wait for peer reviewed studies based on audited data before drinking Elon's man milk.

You're not reading my posts Pal, i'm a Model 3 owner and have had very little good to say about autopilot (in its current state). Again -> it's decent on motorways, treacherous everywhere else IMO.

Most common cause of accidents is Distracted driving, autopilot makes mistakes but won't get high/distracted on meth and drive the wrong way down the M-50 (Elon might tho)

Lumen

jusmeig wrote: »

You're not reading my posts

I am trying, although we're possibly talking at cross-purposes.

jusmeig wrote: »

i'm a Model 3 owner and have had very little good to say about autopilot (in its current state). Again -> it's decent on motorways, treacherous everywhere else IMO.

What I can't reconcile is the Tesla assertion that autopilot as it exists today makes driving safer with my own experience that it throws a hissy fit and gives up anytime anything remotely challenging happens.

I do think elements of it are useful, e.g. automatic emergency braking and beeping, although I'm not quite sure how to safely test that out, but those fairly basic elements are being developed by all manufacturers.

The perception-oriented things seem to be woefully inadequate.

Maybe Teslas are just safer (if they are safer) than the average car on the road because they're structurally superior, handle better, and tend to not be driven much over the speed limit, so in typical use they are being driven so well within their own limits that if an accident situation occurs the driver is more likely to be able to avoid it, and if not, have a less hurty collision.

There are some elk-test videos on Youtube comparing the Model 3 and Kona, and the Model 3 proves to be far superior, as you'd expect from a performance car. It certainly feels like the safest car I've ever driven, when Autopilot is disengaged.

To be fair to Tesla, the 3 is some yoke compared to a Kona for what, €10k more in basic 3 guise?

cnocbui

jusmeig wrote: »

Tesla's report shows:

One accident per 3.34 million miles driven in which drivers had Autopilot engaged.
One accident or crash-like event for every 1.92 million miles driven.

You can react in many different ways to this:

FAKENEWS, not real does not exist. If you go this route, all bets are off.
Ultimately you are responsible for your safety, as you have to choose to activate it.
On motorway driving, it will likely crash far less if compared to humans (because we do mad silly sh£t and cause accidents all the time)

Does the Tesla report show how many disengagements there were per million miles driven? A disengagement being where the human driver had to take over.

The Norwegians have one fatality per 600 million km for human AI. This of course covers the whole country, all weathers, times of day and all road types and surfaces including snow and ice.

Now unless you can show that Teslas or Waymos have almost no autopilot disengagements per 600 million km under the same driving conditions...

Even Waymo say they are decades away from matching human competence.

Fatal accidents in vehicles are edge cases and I would bet they are caused by proportionally very few people who possibly shouldn't be driving in some cases. Some fatal accidents are just true s​hit-happens accidents that no driver and no AI could possibly avoid. Most drivers never have a fatal accident in their lifetimes and many still wouldn't if the distance and amount of time that they drove for was near the max possible in a lifetime.

So humans are actually extremely good at driving on the whole, many showing near perfect performance, so no AI can possibly aver be 'better' in terms of safety. The best autonomous driving can ever achieve is to better the performance of the few edge-case drivers who aren't quite perfect.

unkel

Lumen wrote: »

That only proves that some insurance companies at one point thought that vehicles with the option might crash less or more lightly.

And what do you think those insurance companies based that on ?

Do I really need to give you the answer to that? If so, it's hard statistical data.

Lumen

unkel wrote: »

And what do you think those insurance companies based that on ?

Do I really need to give you the answer to that? If so, it's hard statistical data.

Maybe (although I've worked inside several insurance companies and they weren't exactly overstaffed with geniuses), but even if so, that doesn't mean Autopilot is safe, only that people driviing Teslas incur fewer expensive losses.

I like to think it's because Tesla drivers are superior human beings.

cnocbui

unkel wrote: »

And what do you think those insurance companies based that on ?

Do I really need to give you the answer to that? If so, it's hard statistical data.

Sure...

AAA angered Tesla owners, and the car maker itself, with its recent announcement that it will increase insurance rates 30 percent for Tesla drivers. The reason, AAA says, is that Tesla owners make insurance claims more often than owners of other cars in the same class, and claim amounts are higher than average as well. Other insurers may or may not impose similar premium hikes on Teslas.

https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/aaa-will-raise-tesla-insurance-rates-30-percent-basically-because-wealthy-driver.html

Helge Leiro Baastad, CEO of Gjensidige — one of Norway’s largest insurance agencies — tells Bergens Tidende that hybrid and electric cars are involved in more accidents than conventional cars, which in Norway usually means cars with diesel engines. His company has looked at the stats from several thousand accidents that occurred between 2012 and 2017.

“In addition to being involved in 20% more accidents, material damage is 50% higher with electric and hybrid cars,” he says.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/04/electric-car-insurance-woes-evs-have-more-accidents-tesla-model-s-most-expensive-to-insure/

mouthful

Anyone else think that this thread contained much less hostility When we were all ship watching? It seems to me to be too heavily populated by ‘I know more than you’ comments now.

I used to be drawn to this thread 3 times a day, now if I look at it once a week I am content that I am not missing too much.

It is great when people have strong considered opinions but anyone who differs from them is not necessarily wrong, and they might also be just getting off pushing buttons. I find this quite boring, but that might be my failing.

I guess all I want from this thread is to know;
Is anyone having difficulty with their car, is Tesla stepping up if they are?
New technology development including accessories, apps, software updates
Accidents - repairs stories and hints

It may be that I am alone in this and in that case I should just feck off and leave the thread! However if there are others who feel the same way I would be delighted to hang around.

jusmeig

Lumen wrote: »

I am trying, although we're possibly talking at cross-purposes.

Probably
Their data only makes sense in the context of comparing apples to apples.
If they said:

"For motorway/highway driving only, the accident rate was x for cars with autopilot and y without."

This at least is a basis for the claim that its safer with AP engaged.

But in terms of being in an accident and being safer, they also got in trouble over statements around that too. The problem here is its Tesla. If anyone else said this, no eyelids batted. 1 Tesla goes on fire in a car park...it's on the front pages...despite tens of thousands of cars exploding into flames all over the place.

mouthful

mouthful wrote: »

Anyone else think that this thread contained much less hostility When we were all ship watching? It seems to me to be too heavily populated by ‘I know more than you’ comments now.

I used to be drawn to this thread 3 times a day, now if I look at it once a week I am content that I am not missing too much.

It is great when people have strong considered opinions but anyone who differs from them is not necessarily wrong, and they might also be just getting off pushing buttons. I find this quite boring, but that might be my failing.

I guess all I want from this thread is to know;
Is anyone having difficulty with their car, is Tesla stepping up if they are?
New technology development including accessories, apps, software updates
Accidents - repairs stories and hints

It may be that I am alone in this and in that case I should just feck off and leave the thread! However if there are others who feel the same way I would be delighted to hang around.

OK, we'll all leave you alone in the thread waiting for m3 Updates.....

liamog

mouthful wrote: »

Anyone else think that this thread contained much less hostility When we were all ship watching? It seems to me to be too heavily populated by ‘I know more than you’ comments now.

Every EV car thread goes through the same evolution, car is rumoured, people speculate it will kill x, car is announced, people are disappointed with 1 or more technical feature, speculation as to Irish pricing/which features will be removed to make it paddy spec, rumours of delays due to x or the manufacturer not committing to production. Car is made available, people complain about how car financing works. Bjorn videos are shared. Car is delivered, new owners get all excited and share their experience, prospective owners ask questions.

jusmeig

Deleted User wrote: »

OK, we'll all leave you alone in the thread waiting for m3 Updates.....

I miss the days of ridiculous maritime speculation!

jusmeig

jusmeig wrote: »

I miss the days of ridiculous maritime speculation!

No time these days.

Nedved85

I have an order in - where do I start watching these ships? PS - I don't have a VIN yet

AndyBoBandy

Nedved85 wrote: »

I have an order in - where do I start watching these ships? PS - I don't have a VIN yet

Theres a guy on Twitter who tracks them and regularly posts updates, Julien K I think his handle is.. ( @Milhooz )

EVGuy

Nedved85 wrote: »

I have an order in - where do I start watching these ships? PS - I don't have a VIN yet

https://twitter.com/mortenlund89

A couple have arrived/are imminent ... probably over 5000 will be delivered between now and month end.

Nedved85

Think it'll be August for me from what the rep was saying.

It will be interesting to see if they new batches have wireless charging for phones.

When does the hidden VIN show up roughly?

JOHNNYBEGOOD 123

Has anyone got trafic light and stop sign recognise yet.

I got 2020.20.12 update today but don't have above yet.

AndyBoBandy

JOHNNYBEGOOD 123 wrote: »

Has anyone got trafic light and stop sign recognise yet.

I got 2020.20.12 update today but don't have above yet.

You need to activate it.

I got it about 3 updates ago...

JOHNNYBEGOOD 123

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

You need to activate it.

I got it about 3 updates ago...

Cheers, how do I avtivate this.

AndyBoBandy

JOHNNYBEGOOD 123 wrote: »

Cheers, how do I avtivate this.

Cant remember (as it was so long ago), but somewhere in AutoPilot settings you'll see it, think its still in beta

AndyBoBandy

Here it is,

Called 'Full Self Driving Visual Preview'.

If it was already on, I think it needs to be toggled off and back on to display the new warning message

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei5yd59vvxQ

JohnC.

https://electrek.co/2020/06/18/tesl-software-update-2020-24-new-features-camera/amp/

An update starting to roll out. The side cameras can be added to the rear view when reversing. Dashcam viewer improvements. An option to disable walk-away auto locking when at home. The cabin interior camera can be enabled to send them data in the event of a collision. And battery preconditioning when you are going to third party charge points, not just Superchargers any more.

digiman

JohnC. wrote: »

https://electrek.co/2020/06/18/tesl-software-update-2020-24-new-features-camera/amp/

An update starting to roll out. The side cameras can be added to the rear view when reversing. Dashcam viewer improvements. An option to disable walk-away auto locking when at home. The cabin interior camera can be enabled to send them data in the event of a collision. And battery preconditioning when you are going to third party charge points, not just Superchargers any more.

Looks like a super update. The dashcam viewer improvement was badly needed, pointless getting a Sentry event that's 10mins long and no idea where the event happened.

Lumen

JohnC. wrote: »

And battery preconditioning when you are going to third party charge points, not just Superchargers any more.

Sort of excited, except do Irish Ionity stations appear as third party charge points yet?

...wanders out to check...

Yes!