Can't tell if I'm underpaid or an ingrate...

LyleLanley

Hiya.

I just wanted to run something by the hivemind in relation to my job and my pay because I feel like I'm being a bit undervalued but I dunno if it's just that I'm being a greedy ****knuckle.

Scenario is that I'm 28, been working for 10 years for two affiliated businesses, first odd-hours part time stuff while I finished school and college to keep the 'rents happy, now working more regular 32 hour weeks for the past 5 years since I wrapped up college and had a year or two to **** about and have a bit of craic.

What I do... I don't wanna go specific but there are only maybe a handful of people in the country who do what I do. Maybe less than two dozen, I dunno. But it's a very small pond anyway and not something that there's a course for; it's very specific, artisanal, skilled work that has to be learned doing the job, really.

I'm on €16 an hour, and my last pay bump was 15 months ago. In random conversations with people from the Enterprise Board or consultants that pop in or whoever, whenever pay is brought up they all assume I'm on €20+ an hour. Since I became more permanent a few years ago, I'm in charge of about 90% of the company's output, as well as handling tech stuff/designing/inventory/shipping logistics/client liasing/staff training for temporary staff and other random bits and pieces of day-to-day operations. In the last few years the annual sales have gone up steadily, and we're outputting about 150% more than we were before I started being here all the time. That's not all down to me by any stretch, but I know I'm good at this and I do think the quality and consistency of what I make has helped the business and I'm good with all our clients.

My question, basically... I'm kinda wary of bringing up my pay with my boss. I'm the only member of staff aside from the odd temporary person who's been given trials, but they're a rare occurrence and all of them haven't worked out so far, either because they weren't willing to work the odd hours like I did when I was still in education or, more commonly, the quality of their work hasn't been there.

I feel like I should be on €19/€20 an hour, because if I bunk it could take years to get and train another person to the same standard as the company needs to have and my boss wouldn't be able to keep on top of things, he just keeps afloat with what he's dealing with now so if he had to take on all my work as well, he'd be screwed. But my boss gets weird when it comes to this stuff, that last pay bump was actually delayed for 4 months because my boss got annoyed that he wasn't aware I was due more annual leave days than he was expecting so he held off on the pay raise when I booked a holiday.

Anyone got any thoughts on whether this all sounds reasonable or am I just being a disgruntled ****? I love this job, it is never work to me. I ****ing adore it and really would rather do nothing else, but I'm just not really making enough money at the moment to cover my bills and rent and save a few bob. I just don't know how to broach this subject without potentially messing up our working environment.

Any thoughts and opinions would be great... Thanks a mill.

amcalester

Being such a niche job it'll be hard to put a value on it, but if you are responsible for 90% of the output and are the only full time employee you're in a good position to ask for a raise.

Is the business making money? Output has increased 150%, has revenue increased by the same amount?

Or, could you go it alone?

LyleLanley

amcalester wrote: »

Being such a niche job it'll be hard to put a value on it, but if you are responsible for 90% of the output and are the only full time employee you're in a good position to ask for a raise.

Is the business making money? Output has increased 150%, has revenue increased by the same amount?

Or, could you go it alone?

Couldn't go it alone, it just.. I'd be paragraphs explaining why, but it's not an option. I'd need at least €200,000 if not €300,000. The machinery involved in what I do is very pricey.

When I said output, I actually meant money. Sorry, badly phrased. Not the actual figures but it'd be like going from €200,000 in 2014 to €500,000 now, that kinda thing.

Wabbit Ears

the fact that you work things out in a Per hour way would indicate you aren't on a permanent salaried contract.

At 32 hours ( IMHO a very short work week ) your'e on an annual wage of 26,624. Thats not great at all for a highly skilled job.

to goto 20 an hour from 16 you're asking for a 25% increase. You'll have a hard time justifying 25% and, usually, the company will ask you to do 25% more than you currently are doing to justify it. How much you do now doesn't matter, you do what you do for the current wage. the "I believe what I currently do is worth more money" doesn't usually work beyond low single digit % pay increases. No harm asking mind you!!


You've got experience now so the best option is to leave and get a new job for better money.

LyleLanley

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

the fact that you work things out in a Per hour way would indicate you aren't on a permanent salaried contract.

At 32 hours ( IMHO a very short work week ) your'e on an annual wage of 26,624. Thats not great at all for a highly skilled job.

Well I get paid every week no matter what on my contract so I am salaried, I guess. It just seemed easier to express it in hourly rates.

And yeah, I know it's not a lot! I'm not a spender but still... That's why I'm asking. "Highly" skilled seems a stretch, it's not like I'm a nurse or a teacher level or anything, but it could take a fair whack of time to train someone to replace me properly to the same standard. It'd depend on the person, I guess.

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

to goto 20 an hour from 16 you're asking for a 25% increase. You'll have a hard time justifying 25% and, usually, the company will ask you to do 25% more than you currently are doing to justify it. How much you do now doesn't matter, you do what you do for the current wage. the "I believe what I currently do is worth more money" doesn't usually work beyond low single digit % pay increases. No harm asking mind you!!

You've got experience now so the best option is to leave and get a new job for better money.

I'm willing to do more, like I want to be working a 40 hour week but its always stuck with the 32, so I assume he has his reasons. The 32 hour week puts me under a lot more pressure to get stuff done to deadline.

And as I said, I love this job. The skills aren't really transferable either, I can't jump ship to another business and carry on doing the same thing and then I'd have to go back to education or training to change industry and I just don't have the finance for that. I'd be screwed if I was unemployed for any length of time.

PCX

If you did decide that you wanted to move to another employer would it be easy enough for you to get another job in this field?

If it is easy to get jobs with your experience it is likely that your employer already knows this and it and is more likely to agree to a raise. I think there is no harm in asking for a raise up to the market value of your skills - so I'd ask for the full €20ph.

If your employer says no to the increase then you will have to move on to another job if you want more money.

LyleLanley

PCX wrote: »

If you did decide that you wanted to move to another employer would it be easy enough for you to get another job in this field?

If it is easy to get jobs with your experience it is likely that your employer already knows this and it and is more likely to agree to a raise. I think there is no harm in asking for a raise up to the market value of your skills - so I'd ask for the full €20ph.

If your employer says no to the increase then you will have to move on to another job if you want more money.

It's pretty much a 0% chance of that happening. My only alternative while remaining in this industry would be to go alone, which as I've said above just isn't doable.

This is the kinda odd thing of it, there's so few of us that I can't transfer to another business in the same medium, which gives him the "advantage" or however you'd phrase it but he also then will seriously struggle to replace me and the gains of the last few years will be gone, which is my "advantage".

Like he's working all the time, but he's only in the building with me maybe 5-10 hours a week on average but that's variable too. I've maybe seen him for only 8 or 9 hours since March. So he'd have all the stuff he's currently doing on his plate, as well as taking on the 32 hours of work that I do if I go.

Wabbit Ears

LyleLanley wrote: »

And as I said, I love this job. The skills aren't really transferable either, I can't jump ship to another business and carry on doing the same thing and then I'd have to go back to education or training to change industry and I just don't have the finance for that. I'd be screwed if I was unemployed for any length of time.

Word of advice from a man stuck in a niche industry also ( I should mention i haven't had a significant wage increase in over 8 years despite changing roles to more senior ones 3 times in that timeframe) Upskill now, not when you need it. Ive just finished a diploma in management studies and am about to enrole in a project management course even though my role currently is technical.

I appriciate upskilling is expensive if done privately but most places like DBS spread out the costs and make it manageble.

My technical experience has very limited transferability so if I lost this job tomorrow without additional skillsets I'd be screwed.

LyleLanley

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

Word of advice from a man stuck in a niche industry also ( I should mention i haven't had a significant wage increase in over 8 years despite changing roles to more senior ones 3 times in that timeframe) Upskill now, not when you need it. Ive just finished a diploma in management studies and am about to enrole in a project management course even though my role currently is technical.

I appriciate upskilling is expensive if done privately but most places like DBS spread out the costs and make it manageble.

My technical experience has very limited transferability so if I lost this job tomorrow without additional skillsets I'd be screwed.

Christ. Yeah, see that kinda scenario is always in the back of my head as well... I'd have to do something spectacularly terrible or the company would have to fold for me to get let go because the boss is a single parent to three kids under 10 and he too has freely admitted to me that hes single-skilled and if this goes, he's f*cked. He's exaggerating, and could definitely do something else, but at least I know he thinks that way and he's looking at keeping ticking over for another while anyway!

Yeah, I'm planning on going down the same avenue as you with the management/marketing stuff, but the further education has kinda been long-fingered in my head for another two/three years. I have to get out of the rental market as priority so once I buy a house, then I'll be penny pinching for upskilling. I just need my gross wage to be between 30-35K so me and the better half can get above that 70-80K threshold everyone bangs about for the mortgage.

Have you ever approached them about a pay raise? That's the other thing, I've never asked for one, ever. It's always just been given to me, so I dunno what finesse I need to be going in with if I'm asking for more dosh.

Thanks for the kick up the hole and sharing your experience, I rarely come across anyone else in a technical, really niche-y industry.

OMM 0000

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

My technical experience has very limited transferability so if I lost this job tomorrow without additional skillsets I'd be screwed.

Yeah, this jumped out at me as being a bigger problem for the OP than his current salary.

OP:

Yes it seems you're being underpaid.

If you ask for a raise, you need to be prepared to argue your case, and accept their answer.

I would strongly look into acquiring other skills so it's easier to move into another job.

KCross

LyleLanley wrote: »

What I do... I don't wanna go specific but there are only maybe a handful of people in the country who do what I do. Maybe less than two dozen, I dunno. But it's a very small pond anyway and not something that there's a course for; it's very specific, artisanal, skilled work that has to be learned doing the job, really.

Any of them companies advertising for your skill?
Until you can see what they are paying its hard to tell what your job is worth.

Its not worth €20/hr if you cant compare it to the competition as his company has to stay competitive and paying staff above the odds isnt how he will stay profitable.

If you could go to him with "company A is paying X/hr for the same job" at least he'd know you're not just being greedy.

LyleLanley wrote: »

In the last few years the annual sales have gone up steadily, and we're outputting about 150% more than we were before I started being here all the time. That's not all down to me by any stretch, but I know I'm good at this and I do think the quality and consistency of what I make has helped the business and I'm good with all our clients.

Any idea if the profit has gone up as well? Are you working for a company or a sole trader? If its a company you could look at their books and see what their tax returns are like. If the profit is good then you know he is capable of paying you more... if profit is small then it doesnt matter whether you are underpaid or not it might be a case that he simply cant afford to pay you more. The increase in sales doesnt necessarily mean he can afford an increase. Check the accounts... they are publicly available for companies at a small fee.

LyleLanley wrote: »

I love this job, it is never work to me. I ****ing adore it and really would rather do nothing else, but I'm just not really making enough money at the moment to cover my bills and rent and save a few bob. .

Well, at least you love it. Alot of people make more but hate their jobs.

The fact you got a pay bump 15 months ago will probably work against you too.... how big an increase was that? If that was a decent pay rise and you go back again with your hand out so soon it might cause friction.

beauf

Hard to judge if undervalued if there's nothing to compare with. If the company is making a ton of money then maybe. If not and it's just getting by, then it's hard to know if there's value in what your are doing.

cannotlogin

There's a lot of unknowns so its difficult to advise:

- given its niche, do you know what the industry is worth, i.e. if you had up the turnover and profits of all companies in the sector what does it look like €10million, €100m, more etc.

- can you access the financials? Wages figure divided by number of employess, what does it look like, is your pay in line with norms/under/overpaid?

- why are you only working 32 hours, surely if the demand was hirer, you would be working more

- is the demand for your skillincreasing or dying out? Will it be automated in time? Can it be?

- if the company went to the wall in the morning, how long would it take for you to get a similar job?

- what age profile is your boss? Is there an opportunity to take over in time?

- if he was to sell the business in the morning, would it attract many buyers? Etc

With knowing the above it, its very hard to know

snotboogie

Do you have a degree? Entry level positions pay more than 26k with essentially no skills beyond the degree itself. Are you constrained by location? With the volume of work you are doing your employer is taking the piss putting you on a 32 hour week. If I was you I’d be testing the job market and upskilling appropriately. With your admin skills alone you should be earning 30k+

Mini850

So at €16per/hr and 32hrs, you earn just over €26600 a year gross............

That's really isn't very much for any skilled job. As stated above somewhere, a good admin job will get you €30k a year gross.

You make reference to the fact if you went out on your own you'd need to invest 2-300k on machines so I'm assuming your job is technical enough......From what I can tell with the info I have, I'd say you are under paid.

Edit: I come from a technical background also, just so you know.

beauf

LyleLanley wrote: »

....

Any thoughts and opinions would be great... Thanks a mill.

I think the consensus is, you should go out and get a better paid job, one that better future prospects. There doesn't seem much in what you are doing. Sounds like you fell into this, without thinking of any long term plan.

realdanbreen

Well first of all it's great that you like your job but it seems your boss is being a bit of an arsehole seeing as he delayed your payrise because you were taking holidays that you were entitled to. A lot of these employer's are great at putting on the poor mouth but I bet he had no problem taking his own holidays and probably more than a week in ballybunion!

Diceicle

My 2 cents for what I've read so far as of Page 1.

You've been to college for a number of years and are working in a niche industry with the lions share of work and responsibility on your plate - but you're only on €26k.....and there doesn't appear to be room for much growth? You know yourself that 26k isn't going to go far if you want to do things over the next 10 year - house, nice holiday, kids etc.

Your advantage / leverage at the moment is that your boss would be up a creek were you to jack in the job - he may realize this himself and sooner or later get a backup in to work with you - thats your leverage gone.

I'd echo what others have said - re-train. Have a look on Springboard to see if you can do it for free or near to free.

Neon_Lights

Dude apply for an IT job and get 2.5 to 3 times more minimum.

BrokenArrows

The only person who can decide if you're being paid enough is YOU.

If you're not happy with your pay for the work you perceive you are doing then you are not being paid enough.

The question is whether your employer feels the same way.

Find out what your job pays at different companies.
Approach your employer with these findings and request to be brought in line with the market rate.

The fact that you have been there that long also would indicate you should be receiving a premium over the market rate.

Also consider how long would it take your employer to find a new person to replace you? If you have them 1 months notice, how much trouble would they be in?

bumders

You built skills there, start ringing recruiters and I gauruntee that are tons of similar jobs out there. This thing that there is no other job out there is horse crap.

Snotty

You are definitely under paid and it sounds like your industry is so small that it is hard to tell, I would be straight to your boss asking for the raise, he needs you.
But if you are hesitating, if you were there more than 32 hours a week, would the revenue rise also?
If yes, you can bargain to move up to 40 hours a week, keeping at your €16 per hour and that will get you 33k gross. I'd add in some metric also, like if output raises to X level by next year, you want €18/20 per hour.

daheff

if there are that few companies that use the skillset then maybe approach the companies direct? they might not advertise jobs... might be a word of mouth situation.

if the job is as niche then maybe you should look into setting up on your own. beg & borrow to get the cash you need. just do your sums first

slavetothegrind

Lad stand up for yourself. Asking for more money CANNOT get you fired. But it can convince you to change tack.
I know from bitter experience you will be left on the bare minimum as long as you tolerate it.
Look for what you are worth.
I will admit job satisfaction is a huge thing, and worth thousands but you are underpaid by descriptions given here

seannash

Bit late to the party but if you dont feel comfortable talking about money perhaps draft a letter or email and give it to him explaining how you fell and how much you are looking for



I still think just come out with it, say you need more money as you can get a regular call centre job and get paid the same money with probably better hours.


If setting up on your own isn't an option can you use the equipment available outside of working hours and profit share with him on whatever it is you do. it gets your own name out there and he makes money without having to pay you extra.


but at the end of the day, just have the conversation. 30 minutes of awkwardness is better than years of being underpaid.

Thoie

bumders wrote: »

You built skills there, start ringing recruiters and I gauruntee that are tons of similar jobs out there. This thing that there is no other job out there is horse crap.

I was picturing something like a farrier, or saddle maker, so your "horse crap" comment made me laugh.

There are some skill sets that are extremely niche, and there won't be tons of similar jobs out there, and traditional recruiters won't have anything on the books.