"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

Nody

Note anything after this post may contain spoilers for the episode; do not read or open this thread until you have watched the whole episode!!!

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The "Next Episode" and any speculation on what may come in the future episodes should be put in the appropriate stickied Season 8 speculation thread; any funny pictures from the episode should be posted in this thread until Wednesday rather than the funny picture thread.

Note - No spoilers required for the current episode in this thread.

RobbingBandit

Are you as excited for this episode as you were a few weeks ago for episode 1.

Me not so much tbh just get it over with at this stage.

Kunkka

I reckon this is the episode when most people are won over again... at least I hope so.

leggo

Kunkka wrote: »

I reckon this is the episode when most people are won over again... at least I hope so.

Yep, Thrones has a history of pulling people back in. I’ve watched weekly and followed reactions in real time since S4, which was arguably the best season. Since then in S5, people worried about filler and went mad about Sansa/Ramsey, then Hardhome happened and Jon was killed, all was forgiven. In S6, Jon’s resurrection divided opinion, then they ended with two all-timer episodes. At the start of S7, people gave out (ridiculously imo) about time travel, then Loot Train happened. Then they gave out (rightfully imo) about the capture the wight plan, then the season finale won everyone back.

The buzz from the cast before this season seemed to quietly be about this episode. I reckon they knock it out of the park. Some people have their minds made up already and fans of shows like this always struggle to accept endings, so I’m sure several will moan. But I’m excited and think it’s worth being excited about.

RobbingBandit

Holy **** Burn em all

Necro

Mad Queen reborn.

That is all.

Riddle101

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what I saw so i'll probably have a better comment later, but I found that episode to be very bizarre for some reason. I didn't hate but it just didn't feel right in some parts.

bur

So The Hound died for nothing. That made more sad than his actual death.

Kunkka

Fire and Blood.

TimeToShine

Seriously what is the point of all of the prophecies if none of them come to fruition? It would have been so easy to incorporate Valonqar into that final scene with no harm done. The whole Euron bit was just ludicrous but I suppose other than that I've no complaints...which really is telling regarding where we are nowadays with the show. Lena Headley is a fantastic actress too.

Kunkka

bur wrote: »

So The Hound died for nothing. That made more sad than his actual death.

I didn’t like it either, but he did, he got his revenge.

Daith

bur wrote: »

So The Hound died for nothing. That made more sad than his actual death.

Dying for nothing is the point it was trying to make? Don't chase revenge. He says it himself?

I think people are too literal with the prophecies too. Mel even says that interpreting prophecies are tricky things hence why she thought Stannis was what Jon ended up being.

Not too sure about the ep but Drogon's initial attack was strangely cathartic.

Liam O

The inconsistency is the only thing stopping that being a great episode. Drogon fire can only knock down walls when Jon isn't behind one. Dany only cares about innocent people until the plot needs a new antagonist. Scorpions a super weapon one minute and completely useless the next. Cersei Ice Queen one minute and sympathetic the next. I could go on. Thought it was good but again, doesn't really make much sense in the grand scheme of things.

The King's Landing guards are as incompetent as the Winterfell guards so at least that's somewhat consistent

Daith

Drogon's fire knocking down walls? Ok, fine, but Varys should be have blow to Dorne. Maybe he just has better control of fire though.

The lack of scorpions pointing in at Kings Landing didn't make sense but I'm kinda ok with Drogon being intelligent enough once it wasn't a surprise attack like last week.

It's still a standard "one ninja beating 20 armed guards while they all wait their turn".

Well...that was disappointing.

awec

Think of all the lives Jon could have saved if he had just had sex with Dany...

RobbingBandit

Message to Hollywood withholding causes meltdowns literally.

Not a chance in the seven hells will the books end this way I'm gonna watch it again later as my stream died in the first 12 minutes for I only see the death of someone not why they were killed

Ironic that the realm suffered most dearly once they were off the chess board. Way too much is going on or has been missed that once the books are available will make more sense other characters will die or be killed and inspire reactions to cause similar actions in the book. Missandei a child in the books would hardly be beheaded by Ser Robert Strong would be the most obvious standout for me.

Daith

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Missandei a child in the books would hardly be beheaded by Ser Robert Strong would be the most obvious standout for me.

The guy who crushed babies and raped their mother while she was covered in their blood at the sack of Kings Landing when Robert Baratheon won? That guy?

Necro

RobbingBandit wrote:

Not a chance in the seven hells will the books end this way I'm gonna watch it again later as my stream died in the first 12 minutes for I only see the death of someone not why they were killed

Not a chance in the seven hells you'll actually get the book ending either mate. Martin has had his work done for him. He might finish Winds of Winter but there's more chance of me ascending the Iron Throne than there is of him releasing A Dream of Spring.

awec

Production wise that was absolutely excellent. Movie-esque. The acting was excellent.

The plot though? Meh. I think I'm past caring. They are clearly focusing on production at the expense of story. Viewed in isolation, it is great, when you view it through the lens of the whole show it sort of falls apart. The character of Jamie Lannister has been butchered.

Kunkka

I have defended the show for a long time, but that episode annoyed me quite a bit.

Clegane Bowl wasn’t nearly as satisfying as I have hoped for years, didn’t expect Sandor to die getting his revenge.

Jaime’s story is just a mess now, I was convinced he was going to kill Cersei. His redemption seems a total waste of time now, what did it add to the story in the long run?(unless he isn’t dead) That possibly being the end for Cersei is a joke too.. the main antagonist dying like that is just hard to comprehend.

They’ve obviously just disregarded the Direwolves completely, which just beggars belief considering how central they are in the books.

The whole mad Queen thing was the only good part and was done quite well in my opinion. Curious to see how it ends now as opposed to being excited, which is a first for me in the years I’ve followed the story.

Dany has to die now I guess and maybe Jon too. The 7 kingdoms could dissolve to how they were before the Targs arrived maybe? Sansa Queen in the North? Gendry and Ayra the stormlands with Tyrion getting the rock or Brienne’s child from Jaime?

duffysfarm

where was Gendry in that episode?

Kunkka

duffysfarm wrote: »

where was Gendry in that episode?

He wasn’t.

awec

duffysfarm wrote: »

where was Gendry in that episode?

Think he's still at Winterfell.

podgemonster

duffysfarm wrote: »

where was Gendry in that episode?

Probably attacking Storms End with a brush and mop!

awec

The child who was playing with a toy in Kings Landing, before the battle started.

Was he playing with a toy car? I meant to rewind to check.

LadySkunk

So annoyed over Jamie not killing Cersai, what was the point in his character development. It all feels so pointless now. Was sure he would go back to Brienne

I wouldn’t be surprised if they just had Dany burn everything in Westeros to the ground with everyone in it and end with her sitting on the iron throne with nothing but her dragon left. I mean f**k all the characters anyway right?

Really wanted to savour the last couple of episodes but am really sad with how that one went.

Liam O

Jaime's cheap death also adds to my frustration with this season. These characters who I've spent so much time with and yet another lazily written ending with no payoff to their development over the seasons. Jaime is probably my favourite character due to the layers he brings to the story. Just reverts to type for no reason and says he doesn't care about the people? D&D went full mad king on the series this season and even though I enjoyed that episode for the most part it still leaves a sour taste thinking about how they treat these characters who they supposedly loved too.

awec

The “I never cared about the people” line for Jamie was particularly lazy given he literally killed a King to save the people in the past.

Liam O

TheSkunk wrote: »

So annoyed over Jamie not killing Cersai, what was the point in his character development. It all feels so pointless now. Was sure he would go back to Brienne

I wouldn’t be surprised if they just had Dany burn everything in Westeros to the ground with everyone in it and end with her sitting on the iron throne with nothing but her dragon left. I mean f**k all the characters anyway right?

Really wanted to savour the last couple of episodes but am really sad with how that one went.

Is there anyone even left in Westeros? Bronn is going to be lord of Highgarden ffs. Though surely that won't happen as it's hard to see Tyrion making it out of the next one without burning for letting Jaime go.

leggo

TimeToShine wrote: »

Seriously what is the point of all of the prophecies if none of them come to fruition? It would have been so easy to incorporate Valonqar into that final scene with no harm done.

"Prophecy is like a half-trained mule."
- GRRM, by way of Tyrion, in ASOIAF

The point GRRM makes about prophecies is that it never goes the way you think it's going to go. Cersei did die in tears, with her brother's hands around her neck and the life being squeezed out of her. We all just assumed it was going to be murderous, but the story has screamed at us for years "Yeah, what you assume when it comes to prophecies means nothing". Jaime going back to Cersei is true to his character. If he didn't turn on her after she blew up the Sept of Baelor and directly caused the suicide of their son, he was never going to turn on her. He tried, he honoured his promise to fight for the living and even gave that normal, good life thing a go, but when faced down with the reality of her death reverted to type. It's not what I thought/hoped was going to happen, but I don't watch TV shows to be right either. Jaime and Cersei left the world as they came into it: together.

0byme75341jo28

With so much work to do in six episodes I think they've done an alright job, but clearly this season should have been a ten episoder.

To the people saying this isn't how GRRM will finish the series - I have to disagree. Mad Queen Daenerys has certainly been hinted at.

leggo

Yeah, I think everything in last night's episode is a direct part of the endgame (except for maybe Cleganebowl and Euron/Jaime). How they moved the pieces into place, doubtful, that's the difference between writing for TV and in books. I'd have loved if this was a 10-episode season, even if there were two 10-episode seasons with one for the battle against the NK and one for this. But they probably looked at it from the angle of how long it would take to produce (if it's one 10-episode series, for example, we may have been waiting 3 years and flipped a lid about that), from a writing standpoint they have to build a TV series around a big satisfying climax that'll keep people happy until however long it takes to come back and they likely didn't have that (whereas the books tend to just end and have an epilogue chapter tacked on). The lack of published source material likely played into it too. They'd have to really start writing their own story and deviating from GRRM's endgame if they had to create those moments.

The White Wolf

awec wrote: »

Production wise that was absolutely excellent. Movie-esque. The acting was excellent.

The plot though? Meh. I think I'm past caring. They are clearly focusing on production at the expense of story. Viewed in isolation, it is great, when you view it through the lens of the whole show it sort of falls apart. The character of Jamie Lannister has been butchered.

Yeah I can't fault the episode from a technical standpoint where once again the score was excellent, but I've checked out on the plot.

There were little moments that did entertain me such as The Mountain not being all that mindless after all. I was surprised that Sandor seemingly triggered him.

Nody

What annoyed me the most were the inconsistencies. Dragon fire now blows up stone, but only sometimes. Dragon fire don't remain as it's a flame only, except sometimes it's napalm that lies around for hours. Same thing with the scorpions on the wall facing John; every single one of them shown pointing out towards John and not moving yet they all heard the noise and booms behind them. It would not taken much simply to turn them a bit to show how they are trying to get the Dragon but oh no, they are all simply standing there to be roasted deaf and blind. Several deaths which I can appreciate but it all appears to only be an excuse to give a certain super assassin (who suddenly completely forgot how to mask herself and decided to ignore her mission) the 20 min required to get motivated to kill someone she don't like anyway for next episode. It's a better episode than the previous two but it fell down in so many areas for no reason that would take minimal time and cost to change.

memorystick

Dany was like Joe Stalin on a dragon.

Anyone have any issues with Tyrion going from a pretty astute political operator to one of the biggest dopes in Westeros?

pinkypinky

Well, I thought it was a farce from start to finish. I'm so disappointed. It truly is this decade's Lost now.

What a shame.

My only question is who did Varys send letters too? And will they use time-travel to arrive by next week's finale?

s7ryf3925pivug

Yeah dany killing everyone was her trajectory since season 1, they were just clever about it. She was a dragon in wolf’s clothing.

Would be interesting to rewatch all seasons in the context of knowing how she turns out to be.

Kunkka

Anders Wet Grid wrote: »

Yeah dany killing everyone was her trajectory since season 1, they were just clever about it. She was a dragon in wolf’s clothing.

Would be interesting to rewatch all seasons in the context of knowing how she turns out to be.

I agree.

The only part of the episode and story they have done well. Maybe because it’s so much a part of the main ending, they just said “**** it” about all the other characters not involved in her demise.

Mr.Prodston

Cersei went out with a bit of a whimper in the end!

That's kind of a twist in itself?

I've been banging the Dany turning Mad Queen drum for a while. Well holly hell did she deliver that in spades!!

There are so many inconsistencies that I mostly made peace with while watching, perhaps they'll resurface later in the week, but for the most part I enjoyed it.

Thought we'd get a glance at Dany in the end but I guess the sheer calm after all the carnage said it all!

Actually, the whole Euron/Jamie scene annoyed me no end but yeah. And f*cking Greyworm too!

Jon vs Dany showdown next week I presume?

Paddy Cow

Riddle101 wrote: »

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what I saw so i'll probably have a better comment later, but I found that episode to be very bizarre for some reason. I didn't hate but it just didn't feel right in some parts.

If I hadn't seen Rhaegal get killed by the scorpions and Dany evade ten shots, only to give up and retreat, I'd have loved it. I just couldn't believe it though that suddenly Euron the dragon slayer is an incompetent moron who only managed to get off one or two shots, despite having a much bigger fleet with him this time. Drogon BBQ'ing them was great but it's what should've happened last week. It's the inconsistencies from last week to this week that killed any excitement/satisfaction for me.

I've no real problem with Dany going to the dark side, as it were, but it just all seems so rushed and it's like the show runners are flying by the seat of their pants with their choices, when that shouldn't be the case, having had years to come up with a conclusion to the show.

Pacing is a huge issue in this series in my opinion. There's no room for the characters or the plot to breathe. I don't know why the show runners didn't avail of the opportunity to have a longer series. The last series suffered from this too but not to the same extent.

It's like a student doing an exam who is running out of time on his final question and tries to cram in as much as they can in as few lines as possible, ending up with a few bullet points!

Daith

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Cersei went out with a bit of a whimper in the end!

That's kind of a twist in itself?

Maybe but the thing is...she always had help? She would have been gone without Qyburn.

Paddy Cow

Ward J. Littell wrote: »

Anyone have any issues with Tyrion going from a pretty astute political operator to one of the biggest dopes in Westeros?

They've completely ruined his character. Tyrion was always able to see people for who they are. He knew what Joffrey was and didn't ignore it just because he's family. He can see what Dany is yet ignored all his instincts because she is his Queen :rolleyes: Vary's deserved a better death. I just hope he actually sent some of those letters out and didn't burn them all.

Paddy Cow

Paddy Cow wrote: »

They've completely ruined his character. Tyrion was always able to see people for who they are. He knew what Joffrey was and didn't ignore it just because he's family. He can see what Dany is yet ignored all his instincts because she is his Queen :rolleyes: Vary's deserved a better death. I just hope he actually sent some of those letters out and didn't burn them all.

Yeah, they've made a complete mug out of Tyrion to be honest.

Wailin

Yep, it's the hip thing now to hate this show isn't lads....ffs. Pack of sheep it seems.

Great episode of television in my opinion and after the disappointment of the NK episode, a welcome one.

Wailin

Wailin wrote: »

Yep, it's the hip thing now to hate this show isn't lads....ffs. Pack of sheep it seems.

Great episode of television in my opinion and after the disappointment of the NK episode, a welcome one.

I'm still enjoying the show and I actually think this episode, taken on it's own, was very good. Better than last week's episode for sure. I just think they could have handled the build up to the finale a lot better if they had given themselves more episodes to play things out.

Necro

Paddy Cow wrote: »

They've completely ruined his character. Tyrion was always able to see people for who they are. He knew what Joffrey was and didn't ignore it just because he's family. He can see what Dany is yet ignored all his instincts because she is his Queen :rolleyes: Vary's deserved a better death. I just hope he actually sent some of those letters out and didn't burn them all.

Did he though? I know he served the realm but Varys was all about deception and underhanded tactics. The ends justified the means as long as it served the realm in his view.

So death by Drogon was quite fitting after being rumbled for trying to serve the realm underhandedly (and as it turns out correctly) yet again.

Regarding Tyrion, it's definitely true his character suffered after they ran out of source material.

I've said it before and I stand by it - that's on GRRM, not the show writers.

awec

Why did Tyrion tell Dany about Varys?

Paddy Cow

Necro wrote: »

Did he though? I know he served the realm but Varys was all about deception and underhanded tactics. The ends justified the means as long as it served the realm in his view.

So death by Drogon was quite fitting after being rumbled for trying to serve the realm underhandedly (and as it turns out correctly) yet again.

Regarding Tyrion, it's definitely true his character suffered after they ran out of source material.

I've said it before and I stand by it - that's on GRRM, not the show writers.

I actually loved Drogon killing him, that was spot on. What I meant was Tyrion turning into a tattle tale and running to Dany about Varys seemed a bit weak. I missed the inference that Varys was trying to use the little girl to poison Dany's food. It would've been better if Varys had been caught doing that and would also push Dany further over the edge.