"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

Paddy Cow

awec wrote: »

Why did Tyrion tell Dany about Varys?

That's what I don't get and what exactly did he tell her? "Hey Dany, everyone knows your secret and Varys doesn't like you anymore". In his heart Tyrion knew exactly what Dany was and his betrayal of Varys was out of character. This is a guy who was a brilliant hand and well able to play the game. Now he's a whimpering sidekick to a queen that's lost it.

KikiLaRue

Ward J. Littell wrote: »

Yeah, they've made a complete mug out of Tyrion to be honest.

See drunk whore-riding Tyrion was like Baelish; callous, self-serving- able to get the measure of people and exploit it for his own means.

As he said to Jaime a couple of weeks back, it’s the “perils of self-betterment”. He tries to become a better person and in the process of developing morals and betting on hope, he loses some of his insight.

I think the lesson is sometimes even really clever people get things wildly wrong.

awec

Do we think much time passed between Varys writing the letters, getting executed and the battle starting?

I am wondering who those letters were to, and what's going to be the result of them. Would there be time for anyone else to march to Kings Landing?

Daith

awec wrote: »

Do we think much time passed between Varys writing the letters, getting executed and the battle starting?

I am wondering who those letters were to, and what's going to be the result of them. Would there be time for anyone else to march to Kings Landing?

Does it matter that much? Sansa knows and she'd be in fairly high standing with other Lords I think. They did mention the new Dorne Prince though.

Tyrion did tell/beg Varys not to do what he was planning to do so I could see why he'd say it to Dany.

Liam O

Jon Snow is also ridiculously OP now. One stroke of his sword kills fully armoured soldiers

EagererBeaver

Daith wrote: »

Does it matter that much? Sansa knows and she'd be in fairly high standing with other Lords I think. They did mention the new Dorne Prince though.

Tyrion did tell/beg Varys not to do what he was planning to do so I could see why he'd say it to Dany.

It does. Sansa would be in high standing with the northern lords, the lords of the Vale and perhaps also the Riverlands.

The lords of the North swore to Jon as King in the North as they accepted him, bastard or not, as a Stark. They'd not necessarily be overjoyed to have a Targaryen instead.

GHOST MGG

Am i the only one that saw arya stark survive dragonfire making her a targaryen??

Daith

EagererBeaver wrote: »

It does. Sansa would be in high standing with the northern lords, the lords of the Vale and perhaps also the Riverlands.

The lords of the North swore to Jon as King in the North as they accepted him, bastard or not, as a Stark. They'd not necessarily be overjoyed to have a Targaryen instead.

Sorry, I thought it was about who Varys was writing letters to. The other Lords mightn't have the same connection to Sansa but I doubt they'd dismiss her out of hand if she wrote letters to them.

GHOST MGG wrote: »

Am i the only one that saw arya stark survive dragonfire making her a targaryen??

Or the Lord of Light still has some use for her?

EagererBeaver

GHOST MGG wrote: »

Am i the only one that saw arya stark survive dragonfire making her a targaryen??

It's her plot armour, not her being a Targaryen (which she's clearly not).

She's basically invincible these days.

rawn

Liam O wrote: »

Jon Snow is also ridiculously OP now. One stroke of his sword kills fully armoured soldiers

Pretty sure Valerion steel cuts through armour quite easily compared to regular swords.

Pretty good episode. After hating the first four, I'm glad Dany went mad and in spectacular fashion. It's been talked about for years and it was done properly.

The white horse at the end, though.. That was really out of nowhere and was way off tone compared to the rest of the episode. Her new target is either on the ground around KL or in the air. She doesn't need a horse.

lawlolawl

awec wrote: »

Why did Tyrion tell Dany about Varys?

Because he was his dear friend and also because of reasons.

Who knows. Whatever. Here's more explosions and shouting.

EagererBeaver

rawn wrote: »

Pretty sure Valerion steel cuts through armour quite easily compared to regular swords.

Why?

lawlolawl

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Why?

A wizard did it.

awec

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Why?

I think that's just part of the lore. We don't really need to understand why, right?

It's like dragon glass killing white walkers.

EagererBeaver

awec wrote: »

I think that's just part of the lore. We don't really need to understand why, right?

It's like dragon glass killing white walkers.

It's lighter and stronger than regular steel. I don't recall anything about it "relatively easily" cutting through armour though. Maybe it was mentioned somewhere.

One thing I forgot to ask a question about earlier. What was with the brief shots of some wildfire exploding and then nothing?

stesaurus

Well that was ****! Ok Mad Queen, yeah it's been on the cards but was rushed. Jaime ridiculous really. Cleganebowl hmmmm not much else to do, it was always something that people over hyped. Maybe if Clegane had saw the fire below and made the decision knowing how to kill big bro then it's a better send off but ok.
Tyrion betraying Varys is out of character and what exactly did he do other than find out info. Jon standing idly by also??? Really? He left Ygritte because of his honour and duty but his little fling with his aunt means he now stands by and does nothing?
Writing has been terrible for some time now. It's all about the spectacle now.
I've been rewatching for the last few weeks and the writing was just so much better and subtle and planned. Last few seasons just so glaringly bad in comparison. They didn't have the budget for battles and had to be so much more clever. Having the books clearly helped also.
Can't wait for the remake in 20 years time

awec

EagererBeaver wrote: »

It's lighter and stronger than regular steel. I don't recall anything about it "relatively easily" cutting through armour though. Maybe it was mentioned somewhere.

One thing I forgot to ask a question about earlier. What was with the brief shots of some wildfire exploding and then nothing?

I don't think this was important story wise, which is why nothing was really made of it.

The Mad King had wildfire stashed in the City during his reign, and if I remember right there were caches of it hidden that were never found during searches. I'd guess they've now been found...

abff

I get the whole Mad Queen thing, but the timing was ridiculous. She sat there catching her breath until the bells started ringing to signify their surrender and THEN she decides what the heck, I'm going to kill them all anyway. AND i'm going to completely destroy my capital city and my army and all the other various people who have helped me. Because, who needs subjects when you've got a dragon? Right?

EagererBeaver

awec wrote: »

I don't think this was important story wise, which is why nothing was really made of it.

The Mad King had wildfire stashed in the City during his reign, and if I remember right there were caches of it hidden that were never found during searches. I'd guess they've now been found...

Not Chekhov's wildfire then?

Could have saved on that bit of CGI and allowed everyone get 20 more seconds of Ghost.

Daith

abff wrote: »

I get the whole Mad Queen thing, but the timing was ridiculous. She sat there catching her breath until the bells started ringing to signify their surrender and THEN she decides what the heck, I'm going to kill them all anyway. AND i'm going to completely destroy my capital city and my army and all the other various people who have helped me. Because, who needs subjects when you've got a dragon? Right?

She was looking at the Red Keep which symbolised everything her family lost.

EagererBeaver

Daith wrote: »

She was looking at the Red Keep which symbolised everything her family lost.

Yes, but that was a completely bull**** contrivance.

Her life since season one has been reclaiming the throne and protecting the innocent. The complaint is that seeing the Red Keep just isn't a good enough explanation for her deciding to become a tyrannical war criminal.

Blazer

Wailin wrote: »

Yep, it's the hip thing now to hate this show isn't lads....ffs. Pack of sheep it seems.

Great episode of television in my opinion and after the disappointment of the NK episode, a welcome one.

I reckon it’s people who blindly accept the complete bull**** it’s turned out are the real sheep.
As great as the dragon scene was it was an utter farce after last weeks episode.

Daith

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Yes, but that was a completely bull**** contrivance.

Her life since season one has been reclaiming the throne and protecting the innocent. The complaint is that seeing the Red Keep just isn't a good enough explanation for her deciding to become a tyrannical war criminal.

No, it's seeing her dragons die, it's seeing her trusted adviser die, watching the North reject her in favour of Jon, it's seen Jon betray her by telling Sansa about his parents, it's seeing Tyrion tell Varys, Varys betraying her, it's Jon withdrawing from committing his love to her.

Her mission since season 1 has been a fairy tale of going home to the people who eagerly await her and well.

lawlolawl

The moral of the story is: bitches be crazy!

PIORUN

Daith wrote: »

She was looking at the Red Keep which symbolised everything her family lost.

someone watched inside the episdoe

Wailin

Blazer wrote: »

I reckon it’s people who blindly accept the complete bull**** it’s turned out are the real sheep.
As great as the dragon scene was it was an utter farce after last weeks episode.

Well this season has been fairly poor, like last season, but this episode was easily the highlight so far. The pacing was spot on, acting very good, set pieces top notch, great music. Tyrions scene with Jamie was great in fairness. It's a tv show remember, not a blockbuster movie.

EagererBeaver

Set pieces aren't the problem. The show has always been good at them. The problem is some people appear to either confuse the show with a Michael Bay movie, or refuse to understand or accept that other people (perhaps incorrectly) have slightly higher expectations from it. The best part of the show has always been the depth of its characters and, in this episode, what they did with Jaime was unforgivable in my book. The man literally killed his king to save a city. His reveal of this to Brienne was incredible. Yesterday we got "I never really cared for the innocents" or whatever it was.

r/freefolk really does deliver the goods this season btw

The Hound Gone Wild

Twice I had to remind myself that I was watching an episode of a TV show. An unbelievable piece of visual storytelling, deserving of every award it's likely going to win. The sound design and score are top notch, no TV show has ever come close to it.

All betrayed by the writing decisions; forced, rushed and one-trick. Made to get a cheer from someone with green hair and a dodgy fringe in a bar somewhere.

The show mostly died with S5 with some brilliant episodes and scenes dotted here and there. I'll watch the next episode out of curiosity and will probably read the books should they ever come out. But I'll look back on the series overall with disappointment, of what could have and should have been. It should have been Sapranos or Breaking Bad-esque. Instead we got bad poosey.

Paddy Cow

Daith wrote: »

No, it's seeing her dragons die, it's seeing her trusted adviser die, watching the North reject her in favour of Jon, it's seen Jon betray her by telling Sansa about his parents, it's seeing Tyrion tell Varys, Varys betraying her, it's Jon withdrawing from committing his love to her.

Her mission since season 1 has been a fairy tale of going home to the people who eagerly await her and well.

Jon didn't betray Dany. She has been power made since the end of season 1 and convinced that the Iron Throne is hers by birthright. Jon having a better claim knocked her off her perch and she had no right to demand that he doesn't tell his family who he really is. She doesn't care about Jon, the people or anything but power. I'm glad they made her the mad Queen because she's been an annoying self-righteous pain in the ar$e for ages. I'll only regret it if she BBQ's everyone and she gets the throne in the end.

The White Wolf

Daith wrote: »

No, it's seeing her dragons die, it's seeing her trusted adviser die, watching the North reject her in favour of Jon, it's seen Jon betray her by telling Sansa about his parents, it's seeing Tyrion tell Varys, Varys betraying her, it's Jon withdrawing from committing his love to her.

Her mission since season 1 has been a fairy tale of going home to the people who eagerly await her and well.

I get all that but still, I don't believe Dany would burn innocent children alive whether she lost the plot or not. This is the same woman who locked up her dragons when she thought Drogon had burnt one innocent child alive. The same woman who had a traumatic childhood. The same woman who liberated hundred of thousands from tyranny. The same woman who said she didn't want to be Queen of the Ashes.

Now we're meant to believe all of that doesn't matter anymore because she's losing her loved ones and is becoming increasingly isolated. On top of all that they had Jon rejecting her which is portrayed as being the one chance gone to save Dany from what she's about to do - sure she just needed the love of a good man to help her from losing the plot.

jebidiah

Initial reaction. 10/10 holy ****, this is some television show.

Dany cracking and burning the city totally took me out of the moment, as it didn't make sense at all. But after that I completely forgot about it, brilliant episode.

Nerdlingr

As a TV spectacle it was outstanding. I'm loving Dany going crazy and burning them all...but her descent into madness could have been epic and handled so much better rather than not eating for a few days and having bed head!

They ruined Jaime's character. That was rubber stamped last week when he got with Brienne. People and animals pop up all over the place in westeros now. .and in places they're
exactly meant to be and at the exact right time! .Euron, white horses etc etc it's magic!

Really enjoyed the episode for what it was. Left my brain at the gates of kings landing. The show has gone off tangent for a while now. Just gonna try and enjoy what's left of it .

lertsnim

What a **** ending for Cersei.

RobbingBandit

Did Varys pass something to Tyrion before the execution. He hid his rings in the dish on the table too I'd hazard a guess his rings were glamour charms.

North of 32

Hopefully that's the last we see of Arya. She has suffered enough. Ever since the red wedding all I've wanted for her is revenge but as the Hound said, that road only leads to one place.

I am going to imagine that she rides off and finds peace.

titan18

Episode 3 - Dany - I must save the realm
Episode 5 - Dany - Burn them all

Talk about a rushed story

ixoy

lertsnim wrote: »

What a **** ending for Cersei.

In keeping though with the "anyone can die" theme of the books, should character deaths actually be dramatically satisfying? Should they end with some sort of point?

pinkypinky

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Did Varys pass something to Tyrion before the execution. He hid his rings in the dish on the table too I'd hazard a guess his rings were glamour charms.

I forgot about that. Why show it? Chekov's rings?!

letowski

Ana Clean Sarong wrote: »

With so much work to do in six episodes I think they've done an alright job, but clearly this season should have been a ten episoder.

To the people saying this isn't how GRRM will finish the series - I have to disagree. Mad Queen Daenerys has certainly been hinted at.

Agreed this is probably GRRM's ending too, or similar.

One thing for sure, this definitely has been the showrunners ending since season two at least. They even showed us.

https://twitter.com/labellepainter/status/1127763393782349824

lertsnim

ixoy wrote: »

In keeping though with the "anyone can die" theme of the books, should character deaths actually be dramatically satisfying? Should they end with some sort of point?

I just thought that a grizzly ending would be more satisfying for me to watch as she was such a horrid **** all along. I can only speak for my preference of course.

awec

North of 32 wrote: »

Hopefully that's the last we see of Arya. She has suffered enough. Ever since the red wedding all I've wanted for her is revenge but as the Hound said, that road only leads to one place.

I am going to imagine that she rides off and finds peace.

Arya is going to have a serious case of concussion after that episode.

Alpha_zero

She was right to burn them all, was so happy when she unleashed the fires.

The Dragon was invincible this episode, but had previously looked weak and vulnerable in other episodes.

Alpha_zero

She did a great service getting rid of all those plebs.

TheValeyard

Alpha_zero wrote: »

She did a great service getting rid of all those plebs.

No unemployment problem, if you burn away the unemployed.

pm1977x

There were approx 16 scorpions last week that fired 10 plus shots in under a minute, this week maybe 50 plus scorpions and we saw 2 or 3 fired in total, from a fleet and army that was armed, ready and waiting for a dragon attack!


Best ep of the series so far but the inconsistencies are so easily avoided with just an ounce more effort in the writing. See also Jamie's 'never cared about the people' line, Arya trekking all the way to King's Landing before chickening out, etc...


As for 'I'm the man that killed Jamie Lannister' it may be the worst line of the series.

PopePalpatine

Jaysus, I was expecting Arya to come face-to-face with The Mountain when she last emerged from the rubble. :pac:

ixoy

pm1977x wrote: »

There were approx 16 scorpions last week that fired 10 plus shots in under a minute, this week maybe 50 plus scorpions and we saw 2 or 3 fired in total, from a fleet and army that was armed, ready and waiting for a dragon attack!

I much preferred the depiction of the scorpions this week - seemed more realistic than the 2000km/hr version last week. Shame about the inconsistency there.

Kunkka

Second watch completed and one thought occurred to me.. All those people who named their daughter or pets Khalessi are going to be pissed...

Falthyron

Style over substance.

The showrunners have been in such a hurry to end the show since the Season 6 finale. Proof of this lies with a lack of measured confidence in how they tell the story: there are no plotlines that appear insignificant or a long meandering twist - every scene now has a purpose to get that character to their conclusion. Varys speaking with Jon was to confirm Varys' treason. Tyrion telling Dany about Varys (first of all, why?! Second of all, Varys would never have exposed himself that foolishly to Tyrion - the Master of Whispers is far more scrupulous than that!) was to confirm Varys' death and show that Dany is about to break, mentally. Vary's execution was to plant the seed of doubt in Jon. Jon and Dany together was to pour water on that seed and confirm that she is on a unpredictable path that can only lead to anarchy. Tyrion pleading with Dany to show mercy in King's Landing was to plant the seed in Tyrion's mind and setup his decision to save Jamie... I mean come on! There is no nuance, no substance, no weaving narrative that leads to clever outcomes reflecting those characters' intelligence and experience over eight seasons. Now it's about getting from A to B as quickly as possible.

I said this season would end as a damp squib and so far I see no evidence to suggest otherwise. I honestly feel my reaction to whatever they throw at us next week will be: 'Oh right' or 'Meh, okay. I wonder when Watchmen starts'.

Oh, and don't get me started on the suddenly myopic, innumerable ballistas, the Golden Company sitting in a perfect line IN FRONT of King's Landing, IN FRONT of the supposedly impenetrable walls, IN FRONT of the door that can be blown open by Dragon Fire, begging to be hit by one strafing run from a dragon they knew to expect...! However, I will say one thing though: the whole rape and pillage thing was on point in terms of medieval warfare. If a castle is under siege the defender has one encirclement (iirc) to open the gates and allow the attacker inside in return for no harming of the occupants. However, refuse to open the gates, thereby forcing the attacked to assault the walls and its fair game as to what happens to the women, children and innocents inside.

In short, they should just release the final episode so we can get it over with. :pac: