"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

Twenty Grand

Shame Dany didn't burn the Iron Fleet last week with her Kamikaze dive.

They did sweet FA this week and it would have made much more sense.

awec

awec wrote: »

The “I never cared about the people” line for Jamie was particularly lazy given he literally killed a King to save the people in the past.

I went to type a reply, but realised I was just repeating what I said in the non-readers thread about Jaime...

That's a criticism which isn't exactly down to bad writing in Jaime's case, it's a personal thing for each viewer. Who said we were entitled to a redemption resolution for Jaime?* The show has definitely given Jaime the chance at redemption over the years, but also has shown him pulled in both directions between 'redemption' and Cersei.

I liked how Jaime's story ended and found it true to the complex character he's been through-out the show. It may have ruined hopes for a happy ending with he and Brienne up North, but given what we've seen from the first episode, I have no problem with Jaime going back to Cersei when he realised she was definitely going to be wiped out of existence.

Some are pointing out that Jaime originally became Kingslayer to save the people of KL, so therefore Jaime would never say that he doesn't care about the innocent people of Westeros, or say that Cersei was all that mattered. That thought immediately reminds me of this scene between Jaime and Edmure from season 6...

That scene was surprising at the time because many believed Jaime was destined for redemption where he might even out-honour Ned Stark and Jon Snow. However..."I will take your baby and catapult it over the wall...just to get back to Cersei" isn't exactly the stuff of redemption. Although there were examples in each season that Jaime was still wrapped around Cersei's finger, that scene with Edmure was a stark reminder late-on of exactly where Jaime and his loyalties were truly anchored to.

If Jaime's end doesn't sit well with some viewers, that is the way it is, it's a real-time reaction which can't be changed. I understand this...Arya shanking the NK and WW threat wasn't my own cup of tea. So I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just explain why this particular resolution sits well with me.

Jaime was an addict, and although he showed promising signs of lasting sobriety at times, his addiction caught him in the end. When an addict dies, there can often be someone left to mourn them, someone who saw the best in them and gave everything to try and save them...but in the end it was futile as their addiction pulled them towards an untimely end. I guess that's Brienne now.

*Jaime might have failed to redeem himself in the eyes of the masses and the likes of Brienne, but he had redemption with Cersei. He died a hero in her eyes and loving arms, and that seems to be all that really mattered to him.

It will be interesting to see where GRRM takes Jamie in the books. Sure, most of us have abandoned the hopes of the book series ever being concluded, but the sweet summer child that I am believes we will get Winds of Winter sooner or later.

Icyseanfitz

just watched, what a load of bollox! does good writing, character and plot consistency mean nothing anymore

J. Marston

letowski wrote: »

Agreed this is probably GRRM's ending too, or similar.

One thing for sure, this definitely has been the showrunners ending since season two at least. They even showed us.

https://twitter.com/labellepainter/status/1127763393782349824

Apparently that's been debunked. The official script said she was walking through snow and in the close up shots there are icicles on the braziers.

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

No unemployment problem, if you burn away the unemployed.

Worryingly, that is probably a valid solution for about 85% of After Hours.

Tazzimus

Well,
Dany/the writers finally realised that dragons are highly maneuverable, only took Rhaegal dying to realise that.

That's how a dragon should be, an absolute force of destruction. They're basically giant, armoured, flying, flame throwers with teeth ffs.

Definitely an improvement on last week anyway.

LOL at Qyburn as well

lawlolawl

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Shame Dany didn't burn the Iron Fleet last week with her Kamikaze dive.

They did sweet FA this week and it would have made much more sense.

They needed Euron to wash up on the exact beach that Jamie was walking across at the exact moment he was walking across it so that they could have yet another fan service confrontation.


That was the entire purpose of the Iron Fleet in this episode.

whatawaster

Without doubt the worst episode of the show, and that's saying something with the season we have had so far.

Love the show, love the books. But I'm sorry, it has descended into nonsense.

No problem with Dany turning nuts, but the pacing was ridiculous. Going from breaker of chains to burner of innocents deserved some serious character development, which I don't believe we got. From when she made the decision to go crazy, we barely cut back to Day at all. Her reactions, her emotions, nothing just long range shots of Dragon. This show used to be about characters. Now it is just about set pieces. The writers have no idea what they are doing.

Jon Snow was arguably the main character in this show. He has contributed nothing to anything in this season. Ditto Tyrion.

Cleganebowl was so out of place and nothing but fan service. They deserved a final face off, but not right at the climax of the series, with the ends of the arcs of Jaime and Cersei. The worst part was, it was a duel with no consequence.

By the end, I just wanted it to end.

The Jaime and Cersei moment was the only bit I cared about. I don't like where they have gone with Jaime's arc, but at least it was some attempt at making a connection between two characters. It was the only moment in the entire 90 minutes that can say that

Nabber

Arya should have died. It made all the sequences with her pointless, unless she is now destined to kill Dany after witnessing seeing innocents die.
Arya in general needs to be removed from the stories at this point. She severed her purpose, trained with the faceless men, gave her the ability(?) to sneak up on the night King. Her arc should have ended there.

Euron meeting Jamie, terrible ending for Euron, a guy who got way too much screen time. Stabs Jamie twice, Jamie continues on like it's no mans business. Euron burning on the ship would have been better. Jamie needs to be mortally wounded? Then have a rock hit him.

lawlolawl

Nabber wrote: »

Jamie needs to be mortally wounded? Then have a rock hit him.

He didn't even need to be wounded.


Him and Cersei would still have gotten trapped trying to escape.


The showrunners just wanted to have yet another fan service face-off with Jamie and Euron.

bur

"How did they find you"

*Jaime holds up his golden hand*

I went from laughing to crying, what a scene.

facehugger99

Not sure if my expectations have been lowered by the previous two episodes but I though that was a big step-up.

Intense.

whatawaster

Why does Bran have no role in any of this. The writers should have killed him in episode 3. It makes no sense that he is not somehow intervening in this

banie01

The show really has been on a downward trajectory over the 2nd half of season 7 and onto season 8.

Characters dying is one thing.
But the sheer character assassination of personality and belief that is being rolled out this season is a stretch.
The threads of story and of character seem to have become too much for D&D and rather than weave a coherent story it's become a race to whittle down the contenders for the throne in to a morass of poor stereotypical tropes and annoying predictably that the show studiously avoided for so so long!

Really really disappointing end to so many fantastically well set up arcs.

jebidiah

Another slip up, I wonder how many in total in the whole show?

razorblunt

jebidiah wrote: »

Another slip up, I wonder how many in total in the whole show?

That’s already been proven false though.

Rezident

Kunkka wrote: »

Second watch completed and one thought occurred to me.. All those people who named their daughter or pets Khalessi are going to be pissed...

Why? Now the name is even cooler than the usual goodie who predictably wins and they all live happily ever after. That lark doesn't fly any more, not in this world or that.

lawlolawl

whatawaster wrote: »

Why does Bran have no role in any of this. The writers should have killed him in episode 3. It makes no sense that he is not somehow intervening in this

He was there so that Arya could omae wa mou shindeiru the Night King whilst he stood gaping at his vintage wheelchair.

razorblunt

Nabber wrote: »

Arya should have died. It made all the sequences with her pointless, unless she is now destined to kill Dany after witnessing seeing innocents die.
Arya in general needs to be removed from the stories at this point. She severed her purpose, trained with the faceless men, gave her the ability(?) to sneak up on the night King. Her arc should have ended there.

Euron meeting Jamie, terrible ending for Euron, a guy who got way too much screen time. Stabs Jamie twice, Jamie continues on like it's no mans business. Euron burning on the ship would have been better. Jamie needs to be mortally wounded? Then have a rock hit him.

They could have just shown Euron washed up and absolutely wrecked from the swim that would even the fight.
I think the writers were bigger fans of Euron than any of the viewers.

razorblunt

Also I hate when an actor/actress becomes flavour of the month. The mother in Kings Landing is in Line of Duty, Chernobyl and now this, I actually shouted “ah not her again” when I saw her.

EagererBeaver

razorblunt wrote: »

Also I hate when an actor/actress becomes flavour of the month. The mother in Kings Landing is in Line of Duty, Chernobyl and now this, I actually shouted “ah not her again” when I saw her.

Was that your one from AC3 Kate in LoD tells to piss off in the most recent season?

The White Wolf

The White Wolf wrote: »

I get all that but still, I don't believe Dany would burn innocent children alive whether she lost the plot or not. This is the same woman who locked up her dragons when she thought Drogon had burnt one innocent child alive. The same woman who had a traumatic childhood. The same woman who liberated hundred of thousands from tyranny. The same woman who said she didn't want to be Queen of the Ashes.

Now we're meant to believe all of that doesn't matter anymore because she's losing her loved ones and is becoming increasingly isolated. On top of all that they had Jon rejecting her which is portrayed as being the one chance gone to save Dany from what she's about to do - sure she just needed the love of a good man to help her from losing the plot.

She's the mad queen who was probs being poisoned by varys sure

It was all a bit silly imo. I'm not one for criticising it and I'm still into what happens at the end but like. The missile laser javelins suddenly don't have a zero reload time and she can dodge. And since flying into them worked so well last time, let's do it again.
Let's all stop and stare at each other outside the walls. Here's my sword? Why? Why not sure, it's tea time and i don't feel like fighting today

jebidiah

razorblunt wrote: »

That’s already been proven false though.

Really?

Twenty Grand

bluewolf wrote: »

She's the mad queen who was probs being poisoned by varys sure

It was all a bit silly imo. I'm not one for criticising it and I'm still into what happens at the end but like. The missile laser javelins suddenly don't have a zero reload time and she can dodge. And since flying into them worked so well last time, let's do it again.
Let's all stop and stare at each other outside the walls. Here's my sword? Why? Why not sure, it's tea time and i don't feel like fighting today

For all the money the show has you'd think they'd expand the scale. It's such a shame everything was compressed into one season.
It took Rob the best part of 2 seasons to march south, against serious opposition from the Lannisters.

Jon can do it and take KL in a single episode.

Personally I would have had a season dedicated to the NK and Danys descent into madness.

Then a final season with Dany v Cersei, then Dany v whoever else.

EagererBeaver

jebidiah wrote: »

Really?

Yes

Roger Hassenforder

Loved it.
There i said it.

Plot armour- dont care
Plot holes- dont care
Fan service- dont care


Was i entertained?
Fcuk yea.

Mr.Prodston

The Night King isn't looking so bad now, is he? :pac:

dsmythy

whatawaster wrote: »

Why does Bran have no role in any of this. The writers should have killed him in episode 3. It makes no sense that he is not somehow intervening in this

Is Bran still loyal to anyone? Maybe it's his job not to intervene in non Night King events. He can't die obviously because the memories of the world, or whatever it is, would too.

whatawaster

dsmythy wrote: »

Is Bran still loyal to anyone? Maybe it's his job not to intervene in non Night King events. He can't die obviously because the memories of the world, or whatever it is, would too.

Maybe, or maybe the writers don't know what to do with him.

He seemed very insistent Jon know about his parentage. Why? Who knows

Wailin

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

The Night King isn't looking so bad now, is he? :pac:

The NK episode was easily one of the worst episodes in the series. This one was far better, by a mile. Still with it's own issues, but this season has been dire for the most part. From season 5 GOT just went downhill and it's no coincidence that it's when it surpasses the books.

noodler

Absolute trash.

To think I quibbled the long night.

lawlolawl

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

The Night King isn't looking so bad now, is he? :pac:

He was about as effective as Cersei.



He allegedly killed half of Danys army but there was plenty of them left for this episode because, whatever, it doesn't matter. Cersei's guys killed maybe a handful of people during their utter annihilation.


Both Big Bads turned out to be nothing because we need to have Jon murder Dany next episode because DUN DUN DUUUUUNNNNNNNN! she was the Big Bad all along.


This is some subversion of expectations! Multi-Emmy worthy stuff right here.

Roger Hassenforder

Golden Company were pretty shįt tho

Bowlardo

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Golden Company were pretty shįt tho

It was nice to see the dragon just let off the lease

Scruff

abff wrote: »

I get the whole Mad Queen thing, but the timing was ridiculous. She sat there catching her breath until the bells started ringing to signify their surrender and THEN she decides what the heck, I'm going to kill them all anyway. AND i'm going to completely destroy my capital city and my army and all the other various people who have helped me. Because, who needs subjects when you've got a dragon? Right?

Sums up my thoughts exactly!! Quite pissed off at the way it played out. That on top of the inconsistencies.

Now that I'm calming down a bit after just watching it I guess they had to make her go completely bat **** genocidal so all the few remaining characters will turn on her (except grey worm) in time for the last episode.

All set up now for Arya to top the Mad Queen and John to die somehow along with the last of the dragons.

I think the crack that was shown sundering the map was a sign of things to come.

Top marks for production quality again though. Did like the pockets of wildfire kicking off. That was a nice nod to the past is a megalomaniac way.

Barna77

The Iron Bank must be getting ready to give a big loan to whoever takes the throne to fund rebuilding KL

Paddy Cow

Barna77 wrote: »

The Iron Bank must be getting ready to give a big loan to whoever takes the throne to fund rebuilding KL

How do the Iron Bank have any money left? They gave a huge loan to Stannis which he obviously defaulted on when Brienne beheaded him. They gave another to Cersei, which again they're not getting back. They must charge some level of interest to be able to keep going.

Scruff

Barna77 wrote: »

The Iron Bank must be getting ready to give a big loan to whoever takes the throne to fund rebuilding KL

Conspiracy Theory: It was the iron bank that rang the bells as they knew Danny suffered from kampanaphobia

Barna77

Essos bank guarantee.
The bank always wins

Anyway, not sure if I'm happy about how they killed Cersei.
Jamie

ceegee

This season almost seems like a soft reboot where they just ignore things from earlier seasons that don't suit them.
Jaime saying that he never cared about the people, when we know that he chose to forever carry the burden of being a kingslayer in order to save them.
Jon repeatedly saying this season that he bent the knee so Dany would fight beside them against the night king, even though she had already vowed they would destroy the white walkers together before he bent the knee.
In earlier seasons this would be a seed for Sansa to find out later he had lied to her, but now it's just treated as if it's fact.

The whole thing feels like a studio getting Michael Bay to come in and direct the last act of a Ken Loach movie

LionelNashe

It would have been good to see Ed Sheeran the Lannister Soldier & his mates getting barbecued on the battlements.

Keyzer

What a giant pile of dragon sh1t this show has become - I was literally scratching my head and asking why for most of that episode.

Dani is now Hitler/Stalin, Jon is a complete and utter idiot, Jaime is a joke, Tyrion and Varys are now the dumbest people in Westeros and Euron can't aim anymore.

Visually stunning but from a writing perspective this is now Westeros 90210.

duffysfarm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

How do the Iron Bank have any money left? They gave a huge loan to Stannis which he obviously defaulted on when Brienne beheaded him. They gave another to Cersei, which again they're not getting back. They must charge some level of interest to be able to keep going.

they are going to get the people of Ireland to bail out the Iron bank!

razorblunt

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Was that your one from AC3 Kate in LoD tells to piss off in the most recent season?

That's her, a brilliant put down it has to be said.
She has the look of a Miley Byrne about her.

razorblunt

Keyzer wrote: »

What a giant pile of dragon sh1t this show has become - I was literally scratching my head and asking why for most of that episode.

Dani is now Hitler/Stalin, Jon is a complete and utter idiot, Jaime is a joke, Tyrion and Varys are now the dumbest people in Westeros and Euron can't aim anymore.

Visually stunning but from a writing perspective this is now Westeros 90210.

An episode where the only characters in it that come out with credit are Arya and The Hound.

Not forgetting the characters that weren't actually in the episode; Sansa, Tormund, Brienne, Pod, Gedry, Hotpie, the new Maester of Winterfell who's name I never learned, Ghost, Bran, Bronn and Gilly.

Nody

lawlolawl wrote: »

He was there so that Arya could omae wa mou shindeiru the Night King whilst he stood gaping at his vintage wheelchair.

Which could have been resolved then by having the king stick his sword into Bran's chest, Bran holds on to it as Arya, the hidden ninja, cries her battlecry after sneaking through all the WWs to stab him as Bran stops him from getting his sword out in time to block. The Night King and the three eyed raven story line resolved but that would stop us from seeing John tell Bran to tell his sisters and cut away from it all; I mean that scene was critical to have Bran in after all :rolleyes:...

Dial Hard

LionelNashe wrote:

It would have been good to see Ed Sheeran the Lannister Soldier & his mates getting barbecued on the battlements.

He got barbequed on the Gold Road. It was referenced in the brothel scene before Qyburn recruited Bronn to kill Tyrion & Jaime.

threein99

facehugger99 wrote: »

Not sure if my expectations have been lowered by the previous two episodes but I though that was a big step-up.

Intense.

This was my take on it too.

I enjoyed it for what it is now, there's no way they can get back to the quality of the earlier seasons. They left way too much to do in 6 episodes, they should have had the battle with the dead in the last season and then the battle for the throne in the final 6 episodes.

Jurgen The German

One thing the really annoyed me was when Dany was attacking the iron fleet was that Eurons ship was the only one trying to fire on her. In the last episode multiple scorpions fired multiple spears but suddenly only his could? When she was doing the flyover last night and burning the ships scorpions were clearly visible on the other ships. Either have them all fire at her or just have his ship as being the only one with the scorpion, simple continuity stuff.

threein99

Jurgen The German wrote: »

One thing the really annoyed me was when Dany was attacking the iron fleet was that Eurons ship was the only one trying to fire on her. In the last episode multiple scorpions fired multiple spears but suddenly only his could? When she was doing the flyover last night and burning the ships scorpions were clearly visible on the other ships. Either have them all fire at her or just have his ship as being the only one with the scorpion, simple continuity stuff.

That was pretty lame

Daith

Jurgen The German wrote: »

One thing the really annoyed me was when Dany was attacking the iron fleet was that Eurons ship was the only one trying to fire on her. In the last episode multiple scorpions fired multiple spears but suddenly only his could? When she was doing the flyover last night and burning the ships scorpions were clearly visible. Either have them all fire at her or just have his ship as being the only one with the scorpion, simple continuity stuff.

Yep it's off. No problem with her and Drogon coming up with battle plans, being more prepared but it just felt too easy.

I think Drogon getting somewhat injured, might have helped Dany becoming Mad more too. Or having Rhaegal still alive then dying during this ep.