"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

paulbok

Bowlardo wrote: »

It was nice to see the dragon just let off the lease

It was some upgrade Drogon got since the long night, Even if Rhegal was half as effective, the two of them at the power shown in KL would have wiped out most of the dead army in no time.

Daith

paulbok wrote: »

It was some upgrade Drogon got since the long night, Even if Rhegal was half as effective, the two of them at the power shown in KL would have wiped out most of the dead army in no time.

The Night King should have been bounced back behind The Wall with that kinetic impact.

sReq | uTeK

What is the ****ing point of Bran. What an absolute useless character.

TPF2012

sReq | uTeK wrote:

What is the ****ing point of Bran. What an absolute useless character.

Was he not the main target for the NK in the Battle of Winterfell? Every character can't be involved in every plot in a show as expansive as GOT, surely?

magic_murph

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

What is the ****ing point of Bran. What an absolute useless character.

He's the token child with disabilities. HBO get a compassionate grant for having him in the show.

sReq | uTeK

magic_murph wrote: »

He's the token child with disabilities. HBO get a compassionate grant for having him in the show.

Makes sense,

Its idiotic, yes hes the keeper of history time kept, as much as the bloody citadel and books.

the NK could have marched and destroyed every man woman and child, not exposed himself to an ambush. Ridiculous.

TheIrishGrover

OK..... OK. Well... Well, I enjoyed that more than the rest of this season but obviously with some issues. I didn't mind Dany going cray cray. We've seen that coming for a few seasons now but, once again, having 10 episodes this season would have been better. Could have shown her final descent into madness better. Instead of coming across as her finally displaying her true descent into madness it came across as a tantrum: "Ohhh, Jon Snow doesn't like me anymore. Burn 'em. Burn 'em all, Ralphie".
Cleganebowl was so OTT I was waiting for star wars duel music to start (You know the one. From The Phantom Meanace"). At least it was entertaining.

I think however that maybe we are being a bit too harsh on the show. While I enjoyed the crap out of the episodes in general, it was never high art and, had this been another show we would have had little to complain about.... for God's sake, there was a flyin' dragon laying waste to a city and fleet (finally).

Having said that, here's me usual overvalued tuppence worth. My The Good, The Bad and The Meh:

The Good:

• Jaime and Tyrion's last scene. (I thought Tyrion was gonna get caught and killed)
• Varys. Knew his time was coming. Well acted by Hill. (I know some thought he went too abruptly but I thought it was well done. His story was over)
• Again, most of the production values (Although everytime you saw a soldier standing in front of a Scorpion it would look just slightly off).
• Cleganebowl. It was such fanservice and OTT for a show that previously was quite realistic that I'll probably put it into "The Bad" too.
• Thank f*ck that's the last we see of Euron.
• Oh Dany, you finally realised that wooden ships might burn? (Again, don't know if it should go here or "The Bad"
• Qyburn's death. Was pretty funny to see him go just like that

The Bad

• The Golden Company we have heard all about. "Hold!... HOLD!... HOLLLLLD!.... Aw dammit we held too much and got burnt alive"
• As stated above, Dany looks like she's just having a tantrum rather than her descent into madness. Nothing against Clarke. Just the way they wrote it.
• As above: Cleganebowl. Somehow I can't see GRRM writing: "And The Mountain totally stood on the stairs like Darth f*cking Vader without his helmet while a fire-breathing dragon flew behind him and then later stood at the same spot and pulled out the sword like a f*cking Uruk-hai while the sun set behind him". "And then they fell into the flames with The Hound yelling "Wheeeeere's myyyyyyy chickennnnnnnn?"
• Arya's horse
• Jon Snow: Wow, I'm so sad and confused.
• Jaime and Cersie's death.

The Meh

• Arya's story was pointless (No pun intended). I know Cersie was on her List but she only really seemed to be there to show the devastation. I didn't dislike it as much as some but thought it would have been better coming from Davos' POV or something. I suppose it was to put Dany on her List.

So as I was writing this, especially about Cleganebowl, it did occur to me HOW much the show has changed over the years (Especially the last two). While a certain amount is down to the more fantastical elements coming to a head, the general tone has shifted a great deal:

Previously Cersie was a power hungry elite who was, while terrible, was still a recognisable human: She was genuinely hurt by Robert's love of Ned's sister. Now she was practically twirling a mustache while her city burned (Admittedly until Dany got close to The Keep).

Davos was a smuggler. Went to great lengths to let everyone know he was a smuggler and not a warrior. Suddenly there he is at Jon's side at the head of the army.

Characters got killed in sudden and unexpected ways. Now white horses appear out of the fog to save them.

People fought in muddy fields surrounded by crap and rain and bushes and trees. Now they pose on towers.


Once again, I'm coming across as overly harsh. I still enjoyed the show but, once again, it was 90% down to pacing.

tldr: Enjoyable but style over substance.

whatawaster

TPF2012 wrote: »

Was he not the main target for the NK in the Battle of Winterfell? Every character can't be involved in every plot in a show as expansive as GOT, surely?

He's not every character. He is the memory of the world. He knows everything that ever happened and everything that is happening now. Possibly everything that is going to happen in the future.

There is a reason why characters that powerful don't usually exist in good fantasy without limitations. While Bran is still alive, none of this makes any sense. Nobody, including Tyrion, who had a sit-down chat with Bran, are have paid any attention to his powers and how it might help them.

Why did Bran insist on Jon knowing his parentage? That suggests to me that he is not above interfering in the "game of thrones". But why the hell is he stopping there? (Unless the writers have some twist up their sleeve for Episode 6, but i've given up trying to second guess them at this stage)

Daith

whatawaster wrote: »

Why did Bran insist on Jon knowing his parentage?

Cos Jon was riding his Aunt?

TheIrishGrover

whatawaster wrote: »

Why did Bran insist on Jon knowing his parentage?

'cos Bran is a dick!

whatawaster

Daith wrote: »

Cos Jon was riding his Aunt?

In the grand scheme of things, with the Night King's army on their doorstep, you think that was a pressing issue?

mewso

I'm assuming now that Tyrion's long chat with Bran had no significance. I mean what could they possibly have talked about? "Oh by the way Tyrion your Queen is going to kill every living thing in Kings Landing". Not that anyway.

Riddle101

I think it was kind've funny that Euron fought Jaime with a knife. Probably would have been better to watch Euron and Jaime have a proper sword fight but I liked that fight.

whatawaster

mewso wrote: »

I'm assuming now that Tyrion's long chat with Bran had no significance. I mean what could they possibly have talked about? "Oh by the way Tyrion your Queen is going to kill every living thing in Kings Landing". Not that anyway.

They didn't have time to discuss anything of significance, because Tyrion was meeting his mates for drinks at 7.30.

TheIrishGrover

mewso wrote: »

I'm assuming now that Tyrion's long chat with Bran had no significance. I mean what could they possibly have talked about? "Oh by the way Tyrion your Queen is going to kill every living thing in Kings Landing". Not that anyway.

Nope. It was:

Bran: You have a part to play. As do we all. Your queen may fly high but that is because the land beneath her is ash. As possibly the most powerful person in the world, I will sit here in The North because I'm concerned with the world and not mere man. For I am the three-eyes raven and I fly even higher than your ash queen.

Tyrion: I need a drink. Liamo?... I mean Davos? Where are ya?



Either that or:

Bran: They left me in front of the fire. Even though I am probably the most powerful person in the world I am confined to this room because everyone is fed up of my babble.

Tyrion: And rightly so. Fat lot of good you were, warg-boy.

Tazzimus

Is it not a case that he can't see anything in the south because they chopped down most/all of the Weirwoods?
That's generally how he's supposed to see things

Unpossible

Tazzimus wrote: »

Is it not a case that he can't see anything in the south because they chopped down most/all of the Weirwoods?
That's generally how he's supposed to see things

I do remember in the books he could see through the trees. Thinking about that now though, was there a tree nearby when Jon was being born?

Sleepy

Meh. I think the writing in the last episode was so bad it ruined this week for me. Drogon effectiveness in this episode was how we'd been built up to expect the dragons to be for 7 seasons of the show, but it looked utterly ridiculous after watching Deus Ex Euron make such easy work of killing Rhaegal in the previous episode.

If we cut Euron out of the last two episodes and Rhaegal had appeared in this episode we could have had a more realistic "burn them all" / mad queen motivation for Danaerys. Have the dragons wipe out the fleet, the golden company and all the scorpions on the walls, land on the wall (as Dany and Drogon did) and wait for the bells to ring. Have the bells begin to ring and the audience (Tyrion, Jon et al) sigh a breath of relief that Dany isn't going to go mad only for a previously un-noticed scorpion within the walls of the city (maybe another one on the back of a wagon like Bronn used last season?) take out Rhaegal. Have the crowd cheer at the death of her "child" and watch Danaerys go ape **** *then*: show the ****ing motivation for it.

Jaime's character got assassinated in a few short episodes. His sleeping with Brienne made sense. His return to Cersei made sense. Both happening in the space of two episodes with no screen-time showing his internal struggle to choose one of the two paths before him made no sense at all.

As a self-contained episode this isn't anywhere near as bad as the ratings have it. It falls down completely, however, because of the **** writing in the past few episodes and how inconsistent the internal logic of the show has gotten. The varying effectiveness of the scorpions, the power and agility of the dragons and their fire, the plot/fan armour of some of the characters, Euron's entire storyline. None of it makes sense within the world they spent 6 seasons building.

And for those who think the complaints are excessive? Just wait until Benioff and Weiss get their hands on Star Wars (assuming Disney don't cancel their contracts based on their ruining of what should have been one of the greatest television shows ever).

Weepsie

When last week they were beheading Missandei, they had some scorpions set up and loaded (at least 7). Drogon was lazing about in the background, Dany was nowhere near him, instead at the head of the group. Why not just kill him then? It made zero sense.

Dial Hard

Weepsie wrote:

When last week they were beheading Missandei, they had some scorpions set up and loaded (at least 7). Drogon was lazing about in the background, Dany was nowhere near him, instead at the head of the group. Why not just kill him then? It made zero sense.

Out of range, presumably.

razorblunt

Dial Hard wrote: »

Out of range, presumably.

He was closer than Rhaegal was to Euron's ship and he landed him square through the meaty parts twice!

Weepsie

Dial Hard wrote: »

Out of range, presumably.

Rhaegal was killed in full flight from what looked (on camera) a similar type distance if not further.

J. Marston

Rhaegal was caught off-guard (somehow). Drogon was prowling and aware in the background, he probably could've dodged them if they had fired.

Ri_Nollaig

J. Marston wrote: »

Rhaegal was caught off-guard (somehow). Drogon was prowling and aware in the background, he probably could've dodged them if they had fired.

They have also shown that they were quite slow taking off before so I'd question if he could dodge them, given how accurate they were used previously.
Couple this with it showing that Cersei didn't really care much for the 'rules' of war and would have been more than happy to fire there and then if it meant winning.

But who are we kidding when it comes to continuity in the show in recent seasons

The scorpions should have been just a continuation of how they were used in Season 7, an inaccurate but deadly weapon. Only effective if used in a mass volley or very close distance.

Paddy Cow

Tazzimus wrote: »

Is it not a case that he can't see anything in the south because they chopped down most/all of the Weirwoods?
That's generally how he's supposed to see things

He saw Lyanna giving birth in the Tower of Joy and there wasn't a Weirwood in sight. My understanding of it is that Weirwoods are like wifi routers. As long as you're plugged into one, you can see the whole world. There's a Weirwood in with fast broadband in Winterfell :pac:

Paddy Cow

Sleepy wrote: »

If we cut Euron out of the last two episodes and Rhaegal had appeared in this episode we could have had a more realistic "burn them all" / mad queen motivation for Danaerys.

They had to have Rhaegal die otherwise Jon would have been riding him into battle and no way would Jon have gone on a burn them all spree. You could see how appalled Jon was at Dany's actions but there was fcuk all he could do about it on the streets.

facehugger99

Sleepy wrote: »

If we cut Euron out of the last two episodes and Rhaegal had appeared in this episode we could have had a more realistic "burn them all" / mad queen motivation for Danaerys. Have the dragons wipe out the fleet, the golden company and all the scorpions on the walls, land on the wall (as Dany and Drogon did) and wait for the bells to ring. Have the bells begin to ring and the audience (Tyrion, Jon et al) sigh a breath of relief that Dany isn't going to go mad only for a previously un-noticed scorpion within the walls of the city (maybe another one on the back of a wagon like Bronn used last season?) take out Rhaegal. Have the crowd cheer at the death of her "child" and watch Danaerys go ape **** *then*: show the ****ing motivation for it.

Yeah, that actually works a lot better.

Tazzimus

Paddy Cow wrote: »

He saw Lyanna giving birth in the Tower of Joy and there wasn't a Weirwood in sight. My understanding of it is that Weirwoods are like wifi routers. As long as you're plugged into one, you can see the whole world. There's a Weirwood in with fast broadband in Winterfell :pac:

Yeah his powers in the show seem to be a bit different to the books.
Book Bran used the trees to see, hence having trouble in the south where they were turned into firewood.

Show Bran can see without them, except when the plot needs him not to.

Witcher

He can see without them in the books too as Bloodraven told him.

The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves.

spacecoyote

Weepsie wrote: »

When last week they were beheading Missandei, they had some scorpions set up and loaded (at least 7). Drogon was lazing about in the background, Dany was nowhere near him, instead at the head of the group. Why not just kill him then? It made zero sense.

Problem would be, if you miss, you'll have a very pi$$ed off dragon, and Cersei directly in the line of fire, rather than tucked away in the Red Keep where she assumed she'd be safe

Paddy Cow

Tazzimus wrote: »

Yeah his powers in the show seem to be a bit different to the books.
Book Bran used the trees to see, hence having trouble in the south where they were turned into firewood.

Show Bran can see without them, except when the plot needs him not to.

Witcher wrote: »

He can see without them in the books too as Bloodraven told him.

In the show he needed the trees to see at first. He grabbed a tree in the CotF cave. He also needed Meera to drag him to a tree to plug himself in. I think once he fully became the TER he doesn't rely on the trees once he's learned to control it.

Weepsie

spacecoyote wrote: »

Problem would be, if you miss, you'll have a very pi$$ed off dragon, and Cersei directly in the line of fire, rather than tucked away in the Red Keep where she assumed she'd be safe

That's the best reasoning for not doing it. But they had 7 lined up on one side, possibly another 7 on the other.They could nearly have been shooting them in such a way while reloading that they were getting shots off constantly.

I know I'm looking too much into this. Sure they could've fired one at Dany and done us all a favour.

Sleepy

Paddy Cow wrote: »

They had to have Rhaegal die otherwise Jon would have been riding him into battle and no way would Jon have gone on a burn them all spree. You could see how appalled Jon was at Dany's actions but there was fcuk all he could do about it on the streets.

Easily handled. Have Jon dismount as the bells begin to ring, striding towards the Red Keep to accept Cersei's surrender / ensure his troops don't pillage the capital they've fought to "liberate" / attend to a wounded ally or whatever. As soon as he's clear, have the first scorpion bolt hit Rhaegal.

Sure, it'd be a "convenient" way of keeping him alive but it'd still amount to better story-telling than what we're being slopped up at the moment.

Unpossible

Sleepy wrote: »

Easily handled. Have Jon dismount as the bells begin to ring, striding towards the Red Keep to accept Cersei's surrender / ensure his troops don't pillage the capital they've fought to "liberate" / attend to a wounded ally or whatever. As soon as he's clear, have the first scorpion bolt hit Rhaegal.

Or Jon is still on Rhaegal when he's hit, Dany thinks they are both lost. Its later revealed Jon survived.

Star Lord

With regard to Danaerys taking out the Iron Fleet/Scorpions on the walls, I thought it was pretty apparent that she'd deliberately tried to adapt a different flying pattern that would make it hard for them to target them with any efficiency, swooping in from the sun first, then keeping low, sharp turns, keeping varying it, and tackling them that way. The speed with which she went 'Mad Queen' was irritating, and totally a result of the compressed schedule for the show this season, where to do it justice they'd have needed the same length of episodes, but the full 10 episodes. This was always how she was going to go, but the turn into it was a bit too sharp and not given enough time to feel like an gradually accelerating slide into madness!

Disappointed with Jaime, but in fairness, the signs that he'd do anything for her, no matter what were always writ large, we just didn't want to see them.

Was also pissed when following Danaerys' onslaught, Greyworm started killing soldiers who had surrendered too.

Paddy Cow

Sleepy wrote: »

Easily handled. Have Jon dismount as the bells begin to ring, striding towards the Red Keep to accept Cersei's surrender / ensure his troops don't pillage the capital they've fought to "liberate" / attend to a wounded ally or whatever. As soon as he's clear, have the first scorpion bolt hit Rhaegal.

Sure, it'd be a "convenient" way of keeping him alive but it'd still amount to better story-telling than what we're being slopped up at the moment.

Dany took out all the scorpions before they surrendered.

Lone Stone

HBO wanted 10 episodes they said nah we can do it in 6.. ..

Twenty Grand

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Dany took out all the scorpions before they surrendered.

All but one.

Unpossible wrote: »

Or Jon is still on Rhaegal when he's hit, Dany thinks they are both lost. Its later revealed Jon survived.

Jon is thrown into the streets.

Takes on Aryas role of wandering a burning city.
Sees the devastation and turns on Dany.

PopePalpatine

Lone Stone wrote: »

HBO wanted 10 episodes they said nah we can do it in 6.. ..

I need a flagon of milk of the poppy.

The White Wolf

Lone Stone wrote: »

HBO wanted 10 episodes they said nah we can do it in 6.. ..

I remember that made me think that they must have been putting everything into writing 6 tight fantastic episodes....ha.

~Rebel~

The White Wolf wrote: »

I remember that made me think that they must have been putting everything into writing 6 tight fantastic episodes....ha.

So frustrating.

And even in just the time they had, they could actually have wrapped everything up, if they just put a little effort into character development over seasons 7 and 8.

Could have seen escalating signs of Dany's bloodlust/ruthlessness. Small, isolated instances of her shifting sense of right/wrong. Prior to now, every vicious act could easily be justified as being for the greater good, and the protection of innocents. This switch was like going from Stannis to Ramsey Bolton at the flick of a switch - from pragmatically ruthless, to nutjob school shooter.

They had ample opportunity to set things up... like, Dickon could have done what Tarly senior wanted, and bent the knee, swearing allegiance to her - and she could have burned him anyway, saying the house had proven to be traitors and she couldn't have a potential enemy in charge of a major house.

And in the last episode, at Varys death sentencing, just after his goodbye with Tyrion as he's brought forth to be burned, they could have brought out the little girl that had tried to poison her, to be burned beside him. Would have been a brilliant visual moment for Tyrion, to see in that instant what he's done by backing her. And on the one hand she can justify it to herself and them as the punishment for an assassination attempt, but on the other, it would have been a great callback to locking up her dragons over the death of one little girl in Meereen. Tangible change of character.

Neither of these ideas would have needed any more time to do, just a steady escalation in the severity of her choices.

Lone Stone

The White Wolf wrote: »

I remember that made me think that they must have been putting everything into writing 6 tight fantastic episodes....ha.

me too sigh... i mean it's good for what it is, but it's not what the actors and fan's and every one who worked on the show deserves after nearly a decade of work, just blah feck the character arch's feck all the prophecies ! lets just burn a city with a dragon. I mean we got nothing with cerise absolutely nothing she just stood around like she was a vicious tactical lady, and thats what they did with her crying under some rocks aye.

Sure we will get it in the book, shame really. Come on Georgie boy we need your book !

Paddy Cow

~Rebel~ wrote: »

And in the last episode, at Varys death sentencing, just after his goodbye with Tyrion as he's brought forth to be burned, they could have brought out the little girl that had tried to poison her, to be burned beside him. Would have been a brilliant visual moment for Tyrion, to see in that instant what he's done by backing her. And on the one hand she can justify it to herself and them as the punishment for an assassination attempt, but on the other, it would have been a great callback to locking up her dragons over the death of one little girl in Meereen. Tangible change of character.

Neither of these ideas would have needed any more time to do, just a steady escalation in the severity of her choices.

Did they actually know that Varys tried to poison her or did they just know that he was plotting against her? I know Varys was trying to poison her but I don't think they figured that out. My take on that was that the girl couldn't poison Dany because she wasn't eating and the girl was nervous about trying again because she was being watched.

Nerdlingr

One thing that galls me is Dany saying no one loves her. That none of the population in westeros adore her.
She hasn't even ruled for any length of time over the people. She hasn't set them free from Cersei's rule or given them a chance to worship her. She's just nuked them all because...eh...they don't love her! It doesn't make sense.
Rule first love. If they still dont like ya then after a few years, then fry em!!

~Rebel~

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Did they actually know that Varys tried to poison her or did they just know that he was plotting against her? I know Varys was trying to poison her but I don't think they figured that out. My take on that was that the girl couldn't poison Dany because she wasn't eating and the girl was nervous about trying again because she was being watched.

I mean, they're the writers, if they walk her out to fry, then it means they found out.

What you said is what happened. What I'm saying is what could have happened.

J. Marston

Nerdlingr wrote: »

One thing that galls me is Dany saying no one loves her. That none of the population in westeros adore her.
She hasn't even ruled for any length of time over the people. She hasn't set them free from Cersei's rule or given them a chance to worship her. She's just nuked them all because...eh...they don't love her! It doesn't make sense.
Rule first love. If they still dont like ya then after a few years, then fry em!!

The North gave her that impression, in fairness. She brought her dragons, unsullied, khalasar and dragonglass to help them and she was met with fear and coldness.

~Rebel~

Nerdlingr wrote: »

One thing that galls me is Dany saying no one loves her. That none of the population in westeros adore her.
She hasn't even ruled for any length of time over the people. She hasn't set them free from Cersei's rule or given them a chance to worship her. She's just nuked them all because...eh...they don't love her! It doesn't make sense.
Rule first love. If they still dont like ya then after a few years, then fry em!!

Yeah another dumb thing... if she had taken the city with a minimum of bloodshed (as she did), and then given one of her Dany speeches, they'd have been loving her same as they did in Meereen etc.

Not to mention when stories of her riding north to help fight the Night King etc get peddeled around.

They forced that "no one loves me" story on us so quickly it was painful. From the first heavy-handed second Tormund starting going on about how awesome Jon was for being on a dragon, they pushed that ridiculous line. It also felt very out of character for Tormund and everyone to be ignoring her in that moment anyway, I just didn't buy it.

Liam O

And of course everyone loves Jon Snow...

Who would know, or care who Jon is South of Winterfell bar being a traitor's bastard?

EagererBeaver

Liam O wrote: »

And of course everyone loves Jon Snow...

Who would know, or care who Jon is South of Winterfell bar being a traitor's bastard?

Depends who Varys or anyone else who knows has been writing to.

And Howland Reed (we suppose) of course but he's obviously not coming into things in the show. Or maybe he is knowing the way things have gone so far this year.

theteal

Finally got around to watching this last night - I think that's quite indicative of my feelings towards it at this stage.

Again it was enjoyable but. . . .. The sound was really good, really excellent on a surround setup (so glad I didn't opt to rely on NowTV and it's 2 channel audio). It's just a bit sad that GOT has now (actually quite a while ago) morphed into a "leave your brain at the door" experience.

Is the gestation period for Westerosi kids a lot longer than real life? Cersei hides it well!