"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

walshb

Oh, and where does it say we must immediately turn off something that we don't rate nearly as highly as others?

is_that_so

Effects wrote: »

Haven't got around to Borgen yet. Would a different actor have been able to play it better though, or did the director just keep telling him to push it over the top?

First two seasons are excellent, the third less so. To me it seemed like instructions from above and even the best of actors would have struggled, although Toby Stephens or Lee Pace strike me as good alternatives.

Dravokivich

turbbo wrote: »

By more effective you mean 100 X ?

Well, if we were to assume the dragon is some form of reptile, they would not be impeded by low light. Although the stormy conditions would have affected flight.

TerrorFirmer

I watch tons of shows that I don't think are particularly good. Sometimes it's because they're a convenient watch, others because they're immensely popular and I feel like they must surely improve, sometimes bad shows are just guilty pleasures. It doesn't mean you don't have a right to voice an opinion, regardless of why you're watching in the first place. I mean personally I've absolutely loved GOT since S1, but there are plenty other incredibly popular shows out there that leave me thinking "What am I missing here?" but I've persisted to the end.

Walking Dead and Dexter, are good examples. I've somehow made it through 2 full seasons of TWD (S7,S8) that I thought were absolute garbage. Dexter went downhill big-time in S5 and I persisted right through until S8.

Breaking Bad is truly one of the greatest shows ever made, but I actually was extremely meh about the first two seasons and found them a chore at times. It was only in S3 where I genuinely fell in love with it.

Acosta

A very unbalanced show. First few seasons was at a snail pace and now it just feels rushed to the point that they've killed the shows biggest villain with a some CGI rocks because they needed to wrap that story as there's only one episode left.

OneOfThem Stumbled

This scene (the first 3 minutes of the video) is flat out contradicted in the most recent episode (including the implication that she would have acted totally differently had she still had Jorah to advise her).

extra gravy

turbbo wrote: »

Anybody else wondering how one dragon that had been so crap in previous episodes(in winterfell we could barely see a flame). Has the ability to breathe not just fire now but full on explosives?

He wasn't breathing explosives. KL is likely riddled with leftover wildfire and we saw in the attack on the Sept how highly flammable it is.

lawlolawl

extra gravy wrote: »

He wasn't breathing explosives. KL is likely riddled with leftover wildfire and we saw in the attack on the Sept how highly flammable it is.

There were like 4 puffs of wildfire exploding and they happened near the end of the episode.

md23040

There seems to be a continuity error within the episode with the Special Effect department or else there's a fast moving tide at Kings Landing.

The iron fleet are positioned at mark X on the map below.





But when Dany goes rouge around 42 minutes into the episode and flys Drogon towards the Red Keep the ships are miles out at sea.

youreadthat

walshb wrote: »

I enjoyed some parts....

My view is overall I thought is was below average. Hugely overrated. It juts was ridiculously repetitive, with far too many pointless stories, and pointless OTT violence for the sake of it...it lacked depth and imagination. And had next to no human feel about it.....

Why did I continue watch it?

Well, my wife was wanting to see it through, and rather than be the anti social husband, I decided to keep with it.

So too much violence and you thought there was no nuance. I think you need a map to the reality TV sub.

MisterAnarchy

turbbo wrote: »

Anybody else wondering how one dragon that had been so crap in previous episodes(in winterfell we could barely see a flame). Has the ability to breathe not just fire now but full on explosives?

Well his fire breath was pretty powerful before but from listening to a behind the scenes clip one of the special effects guy was saying that they decided to increase his flame destruction to almost Godzilla levels.:rolleyes:

It certainly seemed that way ,stone buildings were exploding the second his flame hit them.
One blast of his breath blew the Red Keep in half.

Viserion could bring down the Wall last season ,a 90ft thick wall but Jon Snow could hide behind a small rock from him and was fine and Winterfell received very little structural damage from multiple blasts of his flame.

Its pure nonsense really.

gargargar

I'm glad they didn't mess too much with the character of The Hound. Perhaps one of the greatest anti-heroes of recent times? He was brutish, unsentimental, coarse, unfriendly and yet in many ways I think I will miss his character more than others.

md23040

md23040 wrote: »

There seems to be a continuity error within the episode with the Special Effect department or else there's a fast moving tide at Kings Landing.

The iron fleet are positioned at mark X on the map below.





But when Dany goes rouge around 42 minutes into the episode and flys Drogon towards the Red Keep the ships are miles out at sea.

I hope someone got fired for that

TerrorFirmer

Just looking at those photos as well remind me of how inconsistent the CGI is this season. It's mostly good for epic shots, and dragon-related antics, but some of the static CGI is terrible - awful texture and lighting. Obviously they had to prioritize certain aspects and it is a TV show at the end of the day, but some of it really takes you out of the moment. Some of the CGI for the black fleet (not burning) and gates of Kings Landing look like a video game cutscene. Far worse than anything static shown in previous seasons.

Another scene I noticed it was the funeral pyre at Winterfell. Just had a cheap, budget look to it.

Ri_Nollaig

md23040 wrote: »

There seems to be a continuity error within the episode with the Special Effect department or else there's a fast moving tide at Kings Landing.

The iron fleet are positioned at mark X on the map below.


But when Dany goes rouge around 42 minutes into the episode and flys Drogon towards the Red Keep the ships are miles out at sea.
[/IMG]

If that was the only thing wrong with the past season, we would be doing very well for ourselfs

TherapyBoy

lawred2 wrote: »

This is true.. also a very convincing performance from the horse. Never doubted for a second that it was indeed a horse.

A-ha! Wrong again!! They just taped a bunch of cats together.

Paddy Cow

intellectual dosser wrote: »

For Jamie, Brienne represented honour, something he's wanted to recover all his life.

Anything horrible or dishonourable Jamie has ever done has been for Cersei. You could argue Jamie and Brienne getting it on was Jamie finally securing the honour he's craved all his life, but when he got it he still gave it up for Cersei. I think their ending was fitting.

Cersei brought out the worst in Jamie. Brienne brought out the best but it was Cersei he loved. Tyrion pointed out that Jamie always knew what Cersei was but loved her anyway. I was convinced last week that Jamie was going to kill her but that was because I had the prophecy in my head. At first I couldn't understand why he'd go back on his redemption to her but then I realised he was being true to himself and it was me who wanted him to be "good".

In the end, even though Cersei didn't get a brutal death, it was a good one. She was a cruel b!tch who deserved to die alone and broken but life is unfair and even though she died, she got to die in the comfort of her lover's arms. The innocents of King's Landing had no such comfort through no fault of their own.

J. Marston

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Cersei brought out the worst in Jamie. Brienne brought out the best but it was Cersei he loved. Tyrion pointed out that Jamie always knew what Cersei was but loved her anyway. I was convinced last week that Jamie was going to kill her but that was because I had the prophecy in my head. At first I couldn't understand why he'd go back on his redemption to her but then I realised he was being true to himself and it was me who wanted him to be "good".

In the end, even though Cersei didn't get a brutal death, it was a good one. She was a cruel b!tch who deserved to die alone and broken but life is unfair and even though she died, she got to die in the comfort of her lover's arms. The innocents of King's Landing had no such comfort through no fault of their own.

Wouldn't agree that it was a good death. She was cowering, crying and pleading about how she didn't want to die.

Jaime may have calmed her but in the end she was forced to feel the fear and helplessness that she inflicted on many others.

Paddy Cow

J. Marston wrote: »

Wouldn't agree that it was a good death. She was cowering, crying and pleading about how she didn't want to die.

Jaime may have calmed her but in the end she was forced to feel the fear and helplessness that she inflicted on many others.

She finally had to face the fact that she lost everything and it was all her own doing. She was stripped of her arrogance and left a broken, weeping mess. I found that satisfying. She has broken so many others and now it's her turn, as a consequence of her own actions. It would have been more satisfying if she was on her own and terrified but then Jamie wouldn't have gotton his happy ending of dying with the love of his life.

2Mad2BeMad

Big question lads.

Is the iron throne still standing or is it under a pile of stones now?

Feisar

On the Cersei death, she wasn't a warrior or a dragon rider or whatever, hard to see her go out in an epic fashion. Although Olenna Tyrell went out with style. God do you remember those dizzy heights?

Feisar

2Mad2BeMad wrote: »

Big question lads.

Is the iron throne still standing or is it under a pile of stones now?

oooh hadn't thought of that!

2ndcoming

2Mad2BeMad wrote: »

Big question lads.

Is the iron throne still standing or is it under a pile of stones now?

Tune in next week to find out!

(More than likely it will appear as it did in the house of the undying.)

intellectual dosser

2Mad2BeMad wrote: »

Big question lads.

Is the iron throne still standing or is it under a pile of stones now?

A couple of seasons ago (think it was a season opening scene or ending scene) Dany had a dream of the throne room complete destroyed and covered in snow. The throne itself was intact (I think).

It might be the case that the snow was actually ash.

Greyfox

Paddy Cow wrote: »

She finally had to face the fact that she lost everything and it was all her own doing. She was stripped of her arrogance and left a broken, weeping mess. I found that satisfying. She has broken so many others and now it's her turn, as a consequence of her own actions. It would have been more satisfying if she was on her own and terrified but then Jamie wouldn't have gotton his happy ending of dying with the love of his life.

The problem is so many people loved Jamie as they felt he turned from a bad person to a good person. By going back to Cersei and not killing her he didnt die as a good person, I think if he had of killed Cersei I could of forgiven all his bad deeds. It's an ok end for Cersei but considering she's overall the biggest villian of GOT a more gruesome death would be far more satisfying, her death is something fans have been anticipating for a long time

Overall amazing stuff, this seasons best episode. This seasons fast pacing could of ruined Dany's transformation but this and her slaughter of innocents played out very well, its now fascinating to see who will kill her next week. S8 is nowhere near as good as S4 but its still unmissable TV.

Loafing Oaf

2Mad2BeMad wrote: »

Big question lads.

Is the iron throne still standing or is it under a pile of stones now?

It will be so smashed up that King Jon/Aegon will have it melted into ploughshares...Assuming he actually inherits it...

GHOST MGG

I reckon the mad queen marches on winterfell and the whitewalkers come back and kill her!

Paddy Cow

Greyfox wrote: »

The problem is so many people loved Jamie as they felt he turned from a bad person to a good person. By going back to Cersei and not killing her he didnt die as a good person, I think if he had of killed Cersei I could of forgiven all his bad deeds. It's an ok end for Cersei but considering she's overall the biggest villian of GOT a more gruesome death would be far more satisfying, her death is something fans have been anticipating for a long time

I was one of those and I really wanted him to kill her to complete his redemption. But that was me wanting him to be someone he wasn't. When I think back to everything he's done, it makes sense that he went to die with Cersei because she has always been his true love and purpose. I wanted Jamie to be good but really he wasn't. This was someone willing to kill a child to protect Cersei. He threatened to kill Edmure, his child and everyone in Riverrun to get back to Cersei. He was never going to chose a happy ever after with Brienne and if he had, it would've just been fan service. I don't like Jamie's choice but it's true to who he has been since the beginning.

snotboogie

I don't see how this episode would cause anybody to turn on the show. The plot holes in this episode are far smaller than what have been on show previously, most seemed willing to tolerate Tryion (one of the smartest people in the realm) concocting a totally implausible plan to send the most important person in the world North of the wall, greatly risking his life, to recover a zombie, all for the tiny chance of convincing Cersie to fight with them? Same for Jamie being two feet away from a dragon submerged and drowning in full armor and him inexplicably popping up a few kilometers away totally safe? People were ok with the Night King, a literal King on the chess board, who has had thousands of years to plan his attack, putting himself in danger while he is destroying his opposition, only to be killed by a teenage girl assassin who literally flies out of nowhere? They are ok to tolerate Cersie having a clear line of sight with dozens of weapons and an army at her disposal to an almost defenseless Danny and just chopping her best friends head off and letting Danny go back to regroup so that Cersie can can have everything that is important to her obliterated?

While the points raised here about the plot holes in this episode are correct, it was stupid to have Euron wash up next to Jamie, in comparison to some of the happenstances in the last season and a half it's barely worth mentioning. I don't see how this could be the breaking point for anyone? It's at least plausible, unlike say Arya being stabbed in the gut five times and having no lasting impact at all. Same for Danny going mad, it didn't totally add up but there was just enough background for them to sell it. As an ark it's far less egregious than the LittleFinger/Sansa/Arya debacle.

The big difference I see with this turn is that it wasn't fan servicey, it wasn't a cool attractive powerful woman destroying a detestable enemy on her dragon, it was the reality of war, a brutal destruction of mostly innocent people to seize and establish the power she so desperately wanted. It wasn't Arya, the unstoppable assassin, getting to her mountain top ending, silting the throat of her families nemesis, it was her confronting the consequences of revenge and walking away helpless to the carnage of the world, this reminded me of Omar buying a pack of cigarettes to conclude the his increasingly unbelievable ark. This certainly wasn't Walter White mowing down brainlessly evil Nazi's with a robot gun, an ending most seemed to love, it was a throwback to classic Game of Thrones, the horrible consequences of understandable desires matched with the power to act on them but facing off with the inevitable consequences of how that very power changes them. Take the throne to act...

This didn't have the artful set up of the Red Wedding but it hamfisted a satisfying conclusion to a series that stuttered and struggled post GRM. Considering the holes D+D had dug for themselves, this was the best possible outcome; a beautifully directed 90 minutes of pulsating action that freed itself from the fantasy tropes that dominated episode 3 and much of the last two seasons.

lawred2

snotboogie wrote: »

I don't see how this episode would cause anybody to turn on the show. The plot holes in this episode are far smaller than what have been on show previously, most seemed willing to tolerate Tryion (one of the smartest people in the realm) concocting a totally implausible plan to send the most important person in the world North of the wall, greatly risking his life, to recover a zombie, all for the tiny chance of convincing Cersie to fight with them? Same for Jamie being two feet away from a dragon submerged and drowning in full armor and him inexplicably popping up a few kilometers away totally safe? People were ok with the Night King, a literal King on the chess board, who has had thousands of years to plan his attack, putting himself in danger while he is destroying his opposition, only to be killed by a teenage girl assassin who literally flies out of nowhere? They are ok to tolerate Cersie having a clear line of sight with dozens of weapons and an army at her disposal to an almost defenseless Danny and just chopping her best friends head off and letting Danny go back to regroup so that Cersie can can have everything that is important to her obliterated?

While the points raised here about the plot holes in this episode are correct, it was stupid to have Euron wash up next to Jamie, in comparison to some of the happenstances in the last season and a half it's barely worth mentioning. I don't see how this could be the breaking point for anyone? It's at least plausible, unlike say Arya being stabbed in the gut five times and having no lasting impact at all. Same for Danny going mad, it didn't totally add up but there was just enough background for them to sell it. As an ark it's far less egregious than the LittleFinger/Sansa/Arya debacle.

The big difference I see with this turn is that it wasn't fan servicey, it wasn't a cool attractive powerful woman destroying a detestable enemy on her dragon, it was the reality of war, a brutal destruction of mostly innocent people to seize and establish the power she so desperately wanted. It wasn't Arya, the unstoppable assassin, getting to her mountain top ending, silting the throat of her families nemesis, it was her confronting the consequences of revenge and walking away helpless to the carnage of the world, this reminded me of Omar buying a pack of cigarettes to conclude the his increasingly unbelievable ark. This certainly wasn't Walter White mowing down brainlessly evil Nazi's with a robot gun, an ending most seemed to love, it was a throwback to classic Game of Thrones, the horrible consequences of understandable desires matched with the power to act on them but facing off with the inevitable consequences of how that very power changes them. Take the throne to act...

This didn't have the artful set up of the Red Wedding but it hamfisted a satisfying conclusion to a series that stuttered and struggled post GRM. Considering the holes D+D had dug for themselves, this was the best possible outcome; a beautifully directed 90 minutes of pulsating action that freed itself from the fantasy tropes that dominated episode 3 and much of the last two seasons.

all those and more have been raised and questioned - false premise to base your post on really

Foxtrol

is_that_so wrote: »

It's not what people like or dislike. Sure the evil maniac thing lurked within her and it was always a possibility but that path was not properly developed unless you mean the sulking and pouting they've had her do for two seasons. It's a writing and plotting issue and that has been done far too fast and quite badly.

Spending 8 seasons horribly killing anyone who she deems to be her enemies or associates of her enemies and threatening to burn down cities followed by in a short period ripping away her entire support system that curbed those bad tendencies, through death and betrayal, is a lot more development than sulking and pouting. Just because you didn’t see it or agree with it doesn’t mean it wasn’t there.

Cina

At this stage I'd prefer if the final episode was just Tormund and Ghost wandering around the North for 80 minutes.

OneOfThem Stumbled

snotboogie wrote: »

I don't see how this episode would cause anybody to turn on the show. The plot holes in this episode are far smaller than what have been on show previously, most seemed willing to tolerate Tryion (one of the smartest people in the realm) concocting a totally implausible plan to send the most important person in the world North of the wall, greatly risking his life, to recover a zombie, all for the tiny chance of convincing Cersie to fight with them? Same for Jamie being two feet away from a dragon submerged and drowning in full armor and him inexplicably popping up a few kilometers away totally safe? People were ok with the Night King, a literal King on the chess board, who has had thousands of years to plan his attack, putting himself in danger while he is destroying his opposition, only to be killed by a teenage girl assassin who literally flies out of nowhere? They are ok to tolerate Cersie having a clear line of sight with dozens of weapons and an army at her disposal to an almost defenseless Danny and just chopping her best friends head off and letting Danny go back to regroup so that Cersie can can have everything that is important to her obliterated?

Who said that people are okay with that? I'm sure some are, like some people were fine with Bobby popping out of the shower in Dallas, or the Fonz jumping over sharks on Happy Days, or Dexter when season 6 happened. Some people watched the series "Heroes" until the very end, even after two thirds of the audience had dropped it.

Ralph the movie maker does a good analysis of Season 7 of GOT.

The zombie kidnap plot was so stupid it basically finished me with the show, at least the show that purported to be about politics, and characters doing sensible things. I was still honestly hyped for the war against the Night King, but that turned out to be only very average, and over in a single episode. Everything that has involved Cersei has made no sense since she blew up the Sept of Baelor so... I mean she could turn into a literal dragon and I wouldn't bat an eye.

snotboogie wrote: »

This didn't have the artful set up of the Red Wedding but it hamfisted a satisfying conclusion to a series that stuttered and struggled post GRM. Considering the holes D+D had dug for themselves, this was the best possible outcome; a beautifully directed 90 minutes of pulsating action that freed itself from the fantasy tropes that dominated episode 3 and much of the last two seasons.

Miguel Sapochnik has proven himself time and time again to be a very good director, even if the script that he was working with wasn't great.

Paddy Cow

snotboogie wrote: »

I don't see how this episode would cause anybody to turn on the show. The plot holes in this episode are far smaller than what have been on show previously, most seemed willing to tolerate Tryion (one of the smartest people in the realm) concocting a totally implausible plan to send the most important person in the world North of the wall, greatly risking his life, to recover a zombie, all for the tiny chance of convincing Cersie to fight with them? Same for Jamie being two feet away from a dragon submerged and drowning in full armor and him inexplicably popping up a few kilometers away totally safe? People were ok with the Night King, a literal King on the chess board, who has had thousands of years to plan his attack, putting himself in danger while he is destroying his opposition, only to be killed by a teenage girl assassin who literally flies out of nowhere? They are ok to tolerate Cersie having a clear line of sight with dozens of weapons and an army at her disposal to an almost defenseless Danny and just chopping her best friends head off and letting Danny go back to regroup so that Cersie can can have everything that is important to her obliterated?

While the points raised here about the plot holes in this episode are correct, it was stupid to have Euron wash up next to Jamie, in comparison to some of the happenstances in the last season and a half it's barely worth mentioning. I don't see how this could be the breaking point for anyone? It's at least plausible, unlike say Arya being stabbed in the gut five times and having no lasting impact at all. Same for Danny going mad, it didn't totally add up but there was just enough background for them to sell it. As an ark it's far less egregious than the LittleFinger/Sansa/Arya debacle.

The big difference I see with this turn is that it wasn't fan servicey, it wasn't a cool attractive powerful woman destroying a detestable enemy on her dragon, it was the reality of war, a brutal destruction of mostly innocent people to seize and establish the power she so desperately wanted. It wasn't Arya, the unstoppable assassin, getting to her mountain top ending, silting the throat of her families nemesis, it was her confronting the consequences of revenge and walking away helpless to the carnage of the world, this reminded me of Omar buying a pack of cigarettes to conclude the his increasingly unbelievable ark. This certainly wasn't Walter White mowing down brainlessly evil Nazi's with a robot gun, an ending most seemed to love, it was a throwback to classic Game of Thrones, the horrible consequences of understandable desires matched with the power to act on them but facing off with the inevitable consequences of how that very power changes them. Take the throne to act...

This didn't have the artful set up of the Red Wedding but it hamfisted a satisfying conclusion to a series that stuttered and struggled post GRM. Considering the holes D+D had dug for themselves, this was the best possible outcome; a beautifully directed 90 minutes of pulsating action that freed itself from the fantasy tropes that dominated episode 3 and much of the last two seasons.

I remember people thinking that was really stupid. I don't recall anyone thinking it was a brilliant idea. Pretty much all the plot holes you pointed out were from season 7 and they were also pointed out as season 7 was airing. Season 7 is generally accepted as being a weak season, with only this season being weaker.

The first four seasons were stellar. 5 & 6 weren't on the same level but still good over all with some brilliant episodes. There has been a gradual drop off in quality. 7 & 8 are what you'd expect from a typical fantasy tv show - heros put in situations where the odds are stacked against them but miraculously survive etc. We didn't get that in the earlier episodes. Ned's beheading and the red wedding shocked non-book readers because they weren't used to the good guys losing out. That's what made the show stand out. Anyone could die.

In 8 we have shocks for the sake of shocks eg Euron shooting Rhaegal. The change in how the story is told is really jarring for anyone who has followed from season 1. I'm not giving up one episode from the finish but if the story had been told from the beginning in typical fantasy style, I don't think I would have made it through 8 episodes. I was an avid Walking Dead fan but gave up around season 7 because there was no end goal in sight and I got bored of the show. If GOT was open ended and not finishing next week, I'd drop it.

memorystick

Effects wrote: »

You've seen season 7, yeah?

Photoshopped

TerrorFirmer

Greyfox wrote: »

The problem is so many people loved Jamie as they felt he turned from a bad person to a good person. By going back to Cersei and not killing her he didnt die as a good person, I think if he had of killed Cersei I could of forgiven all his bad deeds.

People love him because he's one of the most complicated characters on the show.

Is he a bad person who does good things, or a good person who does bad things?

That perception changes as the show progresses and he's still incredibly multi-layered but Cersei continues to bring out the worst in him until the end.

He fought the 'right' fight by going north, but he didn't switch sides or take up arms against his former allies by returning to her.

He just went to die alongside his one true love knowing that life holds little for him without her.

Doing that doesn't make him bad - he did briefly flirt with the notion of a happy ever after with Brienne - but found he wasn't able to.

It's all true to his character. A flawed man who does grow, but remains shacked to toxic love in the end.

The things we do for love. Indeed!

As much as I dislike how they've handled this season, I was taken back by the perfection of his ending, and that of his sister.

They met the same fate but it's a bittersweet ending for Jaime on his terms....it's a cruel, pitiful end for Cersei, the woman 'not half as smart' as she thought she was, just as her father predicted.

is_that_so

Foxtrol wrote: »

Spending 8 seasons horribly killing anyone who she deems to be her enemies or associates of her enemies and threatening to burn down cities followed by in a short period ripping away her entire support system that curbed those bad tendencies, through death and betrayal, is a lot more development than sulking and pouting. Just because you didn’t see it or agree with it doesn’t mean it wasn’t there.

She went psycho almost in an instant. That's really not how you set up such a fundamental switch credibly and there was no real conflict apart from the aforementioned sulk. It's not so much that she did it, as deranged as it was, it's that she got less than two episodes to completely lose it. That is down to the poor writing and racing to get to the end of it.

spodoinkle

Did anyone else miss the fact that Varys was trying to poison Dani?? That went totally over my head.

snotboogie

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I remember people thinking that was really stupid. I don't recall anyone thinking it was a brilliant idea. Pretty much all the plot holes you pointed out were from season 7 and they were also pointed out as season 7 was airing. Season 7 is generally accepted as being a weak season, with only this season being weaker.

The first four seasons were stellar. 5 & 6 weren't on the same level but still good over all with some brilliant episodes. There has been a gradual drop off in quality. 7 & 8 are what you'd expect from a typical fantasy tv show - heros put in situations where the odds are stacked against them but miraculously survive etc. We didn't get that in the earlier episodes. Ned's beheading and the red wedding shocked non-book readers because they weren't used to the good guys losing out. That's what made the show stand out. Anyone could die.

In 8 we have shocks for the sake of shocks eg Euron shooting Rhaegal. The change in how the story is told is really jarring for anyone who has followed from season 1. I'm not giving up one episode from the finish but if the story had been told from the beginning in typical fantasy style, I don't think I would have made it through 8 episodes. I was an avid Walking Dead fan but gave up around season 7 because there was no end goal in sight and I got bored of the show. If GOT was open ended and not finishing next week, I'd drop it.

Of course I'm not saying everybody accepted season 7, I'm talking about people who talked about this episode as a turning point.

Loafing Oaf

spodoinkle wrote: »

Did anyone else miss the fact that Varys was trying to poison Dani?? That went totally over my head.

I didn't pick up on that either.

Paddy Cow

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

They met the same fate but it's a bittersweet ending for Jaime on his terms....it's a cruel, pitiful end for Cersei, the woman 'not half as smart' as she thought she was, just as her father predicted.

That sums it up perfectly.

GreeBo

Effects wrote: »

You've seen season 7, yeah?

But thats not explosives, thats projected fire blowing things out of the way.

Its a bit of a leap to suggest the quoted pic explains how Drogon can blow up reinforced walls that are metres thick.

HalloweenJack

For me, there were two very satisfying events: Cersei's death and Dany's descent into madness.

We all know what Cersei is. Even when KL was burning all around her, she was still determined to put on a brave face. "The Red Keep has never fallen" was her defiant stance. To have her still being so callous and selfish right until the end was true to form. To then see her lose everything and turn into a desperate, blubbering wreck was a more satisfying ending for her than being publicly beheaded by her enemies or scorched by a dragon could ever have been. Everything crumbled around her. She only had Jamie to comfort her and that, in an odd way, was fittingly romantic. These two people who were always obsessed with each other got to die together even though they had lost everything they wanted. As Jamie said, "Nothing else matters". Even though it was Cersei, I felt sad for her. Similarly for Jamie, he tried so hard to be good but this woman had a hold on him and he just couldn't break it. It is a tragic romance.

Dany's fixation on the throne has been there from the beginning and her determination to have it has gone too far. In history, when has there ever been a power-hungry ruler (even those who led popular uprisings) who finally got what they wanted and decided to live peacefully ever after? In war, even the "good guys" have an awful lot of blood on their hands. Greyworm attacking the surrendering soldiers was a shock but I think people have got it into their heads that "Dany = good, Cersei = bad" when conflicts are never that black and white. What we saw is a realistic representation of one person's lust for power overtake any concern for the common good and there being no moral winners in any war.

EDIT: One more thing about Dany's attack on KL, which I don't remember from the episode. Surely they would have known that Jamie escaped and that Tyrion was the last one to see him. This might have explained Dany ignoring Tyrion's advice and destroying KL.

The Hound and the Mountain was a bit cartoonish, though also a good end for the Hound as he overcame his cowardice to accept he'd have to die to get his revenge. I did laugh out loud at Qyburn's demise, though.

Jamie and Euron was both cartoonish and pointless. If it was some sort of battle for Cersei, it fell a bit flat. We all know Cersei used Euron and he didn't seem to be madly in love with her either. It was a fight between a devoted lover and someone who shagged her a few times. You can guarantee Cersei wouldn't have given a ****e if Euron had made his way up to be with her at the end.

Tyrion and Jon have put themselves firmly in Dany's corner and they both seem powerless to stop her even though they know she's gone too far. It's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. I can see Tyrion and the Starks trying to take her out in the final episode. How they do it should be interesting.

intellectual dosser

is_that_so wrote: »

She went psycho almost in an instant. That's really not how you set up such a fundamental switch credibly and there was no real conflict apart from the aforementioned sulk. It's not so much that she did it, as deranged as it was, it's that she got less than two episodes to completely lose it. That is down to the poor writing and racing to get to the end of it.

I think she's showed cause for concern for a quite a while. Tyrion has been working to convince her of civil ways of doing things for a long time - since her 'break the wheel' declaration. She's been toying with the idea of roasting Kings Landing since S7E1.

Executing the Tarly's was indication that she was probably psycho, but left enough for us not to be fully convinced. In S8E5 Varys mentioned that Targaryan's are generally a coin toss in terms of their sanity, this teed it up for Dany to finally show which side she's on.

I had been suspecting for a while her arc would follow that of her fathers....burn them all.

NuMarvel

GreeBo wrote: »

But thats not explosives, thats projected fire blowing things out of the way.

Its a bit of a leap to suggest the quoted pic explains how Drogon can blow up reinforced walls that are metres thick.

Heated air expands, so if Drogon's flame is hot enough, it could cause the air in front of it to expand rapidly and generate sufficient force to knock down walls.

turbbo

GreeBo wrote: »

But thats not explosives, thats projected fire blowing things out of the way.

Its a bit of a leap to suggest the quoted pic explains how Drogon can blow up reinforced walls that are metres thick.

Yeah its warmer in kings landing dontchaknow!

I'm letting it slide - but I think it was a rough cut to go with Drogon destroying the city, not saying it wasn't beautifully made, but it didn't seem to be based off any historical performance, it seemed to be just a way to push the story in a particular direction - I think it just felt rushed and not carefully considered like previous episodes. Yeah Dany is losing it and I buy into that - but when did Drogon turn into a flying nuclear reactor?

is_that_so

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I think she's showed cause for concern for a quite a while. Tyrion has been working to convince her of civil ways of doing things for a long time - since her 'break the wheel' declaration. She's been toying with the idea of roasting Kings Landing since S7E1.

Executing the Tarly's was indication that she was probably psycho, but left enough for us not to be fully convinced. In S8E5 Varys mentioned that Targaryan's are generally a coin toss in terms of their sanity, this teed it up for Dany to finally show which side she's on.

I had been suspecting for a while her arc would follow that of her fathers....burn them all.

Which as I've said is a complete waste of seven seasons of her character development. Even on TV/movies people don't just become raging psychopaths. Gotta set it up and that way whether you agree with it or not it is her story. They didn't and opted for her action as a plot device but they can use all of these excuses to explain why they didn't need to.

RickBlaine

I was chatting with some mates at lunch about better ways this episode could have happened without completely rewriting the season and we came up with this:
- Missandre is killed during the Battle of Winterfell in the crypts not Jorah.
- In the previous episode, there is no sudden attack by Euron. Dany goes to parlay with Cersei, not to rescue a hostage, but on Tyrion’s advice to try a non-violent resolution. That scene plays out the same but Cersei orders the execution of her second dragon with one of those scorpions on the wall. Dany wants to attack immediately but Tyrion and Jorah warn she is out gunned with the army back on Dragonstone.
- As Dany’s party returns to Dragonstone, Euron attacks and Jorah is taken hostage. Dany has already flown back to Dragonstone by that point.
- In this episode, Euron is killed during Dany’s initial attack.
- Jaime arrives at King’s Landing and also tries to convince Cersei to surrender peacefully. I think there would have been an earlier scene with Tyrion and Jaime discussing this because both brothers want an end to the violence. Rather than Jaime leaving Winterfell to go to Cersei, he travels with Tyrion to Dragonstone.
- Cersei refuses to give up power and reveals to Jaime that she has restocked her supplies of wildfire and will burn the whole city rather than let Dany have it. Obviously Jaime is appalled.
- The battle continues in the city and Dany’s forces win because Cersei’s army surrenders.
- Cersei kills Jorah purely to hurt Dany (as she did with Missandre on the show).
- Jaime has to kill Cersei to prevent her from igniting the wildfire and burning the city. This devastates him but it had to be done.
- Dany flies to the window of the red keep, sees Jorah’s body, and that sets off her rage. She destroys the red keep, killing Jaime. She then continues burning the city as on the show.

I’m sure there are problems with this and Dany definitely needs a few more episodes before to fully sell her fragile mental state, and of course the finer details would need to be worked out, but I think it would have been more satisfying overall, it would have given Jaime and Cersei more active roles (especially Cersei who spent most of the episode doing nothing), Jaime would have has more scenes with Cersei instead of a pointless fight with Euron, and it would still have set up Dany as the mad queen for the finale with Jorah’s murder a more meaningful reason for her change.

is_that_so

Not the worst outcome and makes more sense.

Foxtrol

is_that_so wrote: »

She went psycho almost in an instant. That's really not how you set up such a fundamental switch credibly and there was no real conflict apart from the aforementioned sulk. It's not so much that she did it, as deranged as it was, it's that she got less than two episodes to completely lose it. That is down to the poor writing and racing to get to the end of it.

But she didn’t go ‘psycho’ in an instant, it has been building for 8 seasons. Just because her previous psycho actions were against people you saw as bad guys, doesn’t make them any less psycho.

Discussing this further is pointless if you have such blinkers on that you put the multiple examples of her burning, crucifying, threats to do exactly what she did to Kings Landing, other horrid acts down as ‘sulking’.

It isn’t even that her actions are that psycho in a completely lost it sense, they are basically the only route she had to win and potentially hold on to the iron throne.