"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

Lor11

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Hadn't it been mentioned many times that one Dragon was enough to take out a City ,

Also people saying the turn around in Dragon skills but didn't the other Dragon only get hit and die because he was already severely injured in the battle with the Knight king,

Also people saying that he didn't make much impact at the battle of Winterfell but hadn't it been previously mentioned that the dragons were not eating because of the cold which I presume would have reduced their strength plus the fog didn't help . We know he had at least 2 weeks at dragon stone in warmer climes which would have been enough time to restore him to full strength.

Brock Turnpike

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Teddy Daniels wrote: »

thats not how i remember the words

I only had my memory to go on and I've googled the words to refresh it and they say "When your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." I'm so conflicted now. I was convinced last week Jamie would kill her but made peace with how it worked out. I actually liked how they died.

If those are the actual words it blows my theory out of the water and leaves me feeling empty. I was convinced last week that Jamie was going to kill her. There was no question in my mind. When he didn't, I didn't like it but I could explain it.

I know we're in the wrong thread to be discussing this but now I can see why everyone is so p!ssed off. A little brother was supposed to choke the life out of her and neither did.

Totally my bad and I take the shame

But the show doesn't include that piece of the prophecy. So I'm really not sure why you're reacting the way you are.

Foxtrol

~Rebel~ wrote: »

See, this is a great example of early steps towards a more brutal mindset - but what people want is further emotional development from this.

Her going mad is not a problem. The signs were all there for it to be the eventual choice. But they rushed the story (same as they did almost every aspect of the show) and didn't allow for continuous, consistent growth and change.

Just about all your points are based in plot, and story, but what people are annoyed over is character from a more close, intimate point of view. Who she is, and the way she sees the world, seen through her actual actions. We saw lots of violence, but there was always, always a justification, and a greater good for the subjects at its core.

For why people are upset, you have to think about the person, not the plot. This was like a successful, pragmatically ruthlessly effective but also compassionate general coming home from war, and then shooting up a school full of kids.

That is an emotional change so vast it cannot just come out of the blue like that. All violence is not created equal.

The audience placed a justification at the core of all her actions, but when you look into them from another angle they're really poor excuses for a woman who consistently appears to enjoy taking out her enemies in a barbaric way and most of her 'justified' barbaric actions also supplement her power. Yes, she releases the Unsullied, but only after she orders them to kill all the masters. Yes, she freed the slaves from the cities in Essos, but they were the only way she was taking over those cities. She has good traits but her main drive has always been power above all else.

I would actually say doing what she did is the one way she absolutely guarantees she can't maintain the throne.

You can rule by fear, as long as a balance is maintained. Cersei and Joffrey ruled by fear, for instance, by setting the precedent that if you fuck with them in any way, they will fuck you up. But for the most part, people are allowed to go about their business.

Dany guaranteed that someone would assassinate her before long, as she set the precedent that she's just gonna randomly kill innocent people without reason or provocation. You don't need to do something wrong for her to ruin your life. I mean, her Dad got taken down for being unpredictable and crazy enough for the kingdom to rise against him, and he never did anything even close to what she did.

She is now queen of a city in which every single inhabitant has a friend, or family member that she burned alive for no reason. Every chambermaid, every soldier, every chef, every stableboy. She's put herself in an ultimately untenable position.

After the Battle of Winterfell and especially with the revelation about Jon stopping any sort of marriage, she was never going to be in a tenable position to maintain power.

To paraphrase another HBO show, she’s set up a position where if 'you come at the Queen, you better not miss'. Jon or Sansa or anyone else decide they want independence they’re risking Winterfell getting another visit from a dragon and getting the KL treatment.

turbbo

Foxtrol wrote: »

The audience placed a justification at the core of all her actions, but when you look into them from another angle they're really poor excuses for a woman who consistently appears to enjoy taking out her enemies in a barbaric way and most of her 'justified' barbaric actions also supplement her power. Yes, she releases the Unsullied, but only after she orders them to kill all the masters. Yes, she freed the slaves from the cities in Essos, but they were the only way she was taking over those cities. She has good traits but her main drive has always been power above all else.



After the Battle of Winterfell and especially with the revelation about Jon stopping any sort of marriage, she was never going to be in a tenable position to maintain power.

To paraphrase another HBO show, she’s set up a position where if 'you come at the Queen, you better not miss'. Jon or Sansa or anyone else decide they want independence they’re risking Winterfell getting another visit from a dragon and getting the KL treatment.

Yeah the Dany storyline is rock solid - i've no gripes with it. The dragon BS is what is annoying because it could have been staged more - and Euron knocking one down in the previous episode wasn't convincing when they follow with another one destroying everything. It just wasn't up to the usual standard for the show - rushed.

Foxtrol

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

You’re trying to build it up in to something that it just isn’t. Her actions will get her killed in the end and that is what it’s all about, setting the scene for next week.It was never going to end well for her, it was just a matter of how and this is the way they have gone with it, all we need to find out next week is who actually kills her. While we have certainly seen a dark side to her they really have only made rushed attempts to bring this unhinged character out over a couple of shows.

Even given all of what you mention above mass genocide does not really solidify her position to any great degree. It’s not like she has solved her issues. People are going to be terrified of her and her dragon in particular regardless.

That is what I wanted to clarify, that if she stopped when the bells rang she hadn't 'won', she may have gotten the throne but she wasn't going to be able to maintain it.

Like you said earlier, I think the rest is where we can agree to disagree. I see her actions perfectly consistent with her character, she has always solved her problems with fire, she has threatened to destroy cities in the exact same manner numerous times, always had a terrible temper, always been vengeful, has consistently treated those who she didn't see as being on her side in a barbaric manner, has ruled through fear, and that she'll do anything to get and maintain power. You can feel it is rushed but that's what I've seen consistently from her over the last 8 seasons and when you tie that to her recent losses it is plenty of building up for me.

NuMarvel

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Your right a big whole in his wing there would cause no harm at all to his ability to manoeuvre in the sky ,

He didn't have any major inability to manoeuvre in the first 20 seconds of that clip. He seems to bank left coming into Dragonstone and ends up doing a sharp 180 (or thereabouts) alongside Drogon. It even looks like he's pulling ahead in that clip.

Sure, he's hurt. But there's nothing in what we've seen to say he's hurt to such a degree that he became such an easy target for three rounds from a scorpion.

how.gareth

But didn’t dany and drogon manage to evade all the scorpions on the board the first time around when reagal was killed and she flew straight at them so it wasn’t a total surprise they managed it a second time

Foxtrol

turbbo wrote: »

Yeah the Dany storyline is rock solid - i've no gripes with it. The dragon BS is what is annoying because it could have been staged more - and Euron knocking one down in the previous episode wasn't convincing when they follow with another one destroying everything. It just wasn't up to the usual standard for the show - rushed.

I'm on the fence about it, if you think in the real world, would it be easier for someone with an anti-aircraft missile to take out a plane with a pilot that is ready and expecting attack while in enemy territory or when their guard is down because they're in a safe area after a long flight and about to land at their home base, especially when you might be damaged in a way to limit your maneuverability?

The fact that they didn't see the ships is slightly harder to believe and taking out the dragon was obviously to help the plot, impacting Dany's mental state, taking Jon out of the air, making it only one dragon attacking KL. Since season 1 the show is filled with ridiculous chance encounters by characters across 2 vast continents in order to move along the plot, so I'm not going to suddenly start getting pedantic over that sort of thing.

Stop moaning ffs

Just jumping in to say this. something that hasn’t been said once.

Dany has no reason whatsoever in the world to expect an attack from a ballista on a ship. Not one. Even if or especially if she saw the fleet. We hadn’t seen that before cos it hadn’t been done before. The fleet if she did see it wouldn’t have been a worry for her. She has two dragons. And no reason to expect any kind of resistance from them at all.

She dealt with one ballista in the previous season. And Drogon dealt with it and destroyed it and got a tickle from it but no damage.

The endless obsession with nit picking this season to such a degree that people aren’t even thinking with rational common sense, Christ alive folks,
Settle down.

Tazzimus

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Just jumping in to say this. something that hasn’t been said once.

Dany has no reason whatsoever in the world to expect an attack from a ballista on a ship. Not one. Even if or especially if she saw the fleet. We hadn’t seen that before cos it hadn’t been done before. The fleet if she did see it wouldn’t have been a worry for her. She has two dragons. And no reason to expect any kind of resistance from them at all.

She dealt with one ballista in the previous season. And Drogon dealt with it and destroyed it and got a tickle from it but no damage.

The endless obsession with nit picking this season to such a degree that people aren’t even thinking with rational common sense, Christ alive folks,
Settle down.

The issue is more the sniper accuracy of the scorpions and the fact she never noticed the ships from her vantage point high in the sky. She would have had a view of several miles in every direction, more than enough to see them hiding behind a rock.
If she had spotted them, she would have been alert to them and plenty of time to dodge the bolts from Euron Sparrow.
There's also the fact that 3 successive shots hit Rhaegal from the prow of a ship, on water, not the most solid of firing platforms.

Penn

Tazzimus wrote: »

The issue is more the sniper accuracy of the scorpions and the fact she never noticed the ships from her vantage point high in the sky. She would have had a view of several miles in every direction, more than enough to see them hiding behind a rock.
If she had spotted them, she would have been alert to them and plenty of time to dodge the bolts from Euron Sparrow.
There's also the fact that 3 successive shots hit Rhaegal from the prow of a ship, on water, not the most solid of firing platforms.

In fairness though, there have often been very convenient things like that in the show. I remember the guy from the Brotherhood who shot an arrow into the air and could talk to Hotpie and timed it exactly so the arrow would hit the ground right when he finished talking and right where Hotpie was standing. I'm sure there are likely other examples but sometimes these things will happen both for sake of convenience and drama.

Stop moaning ffs

Tazzimus wrote: »

The issue is more the sniper accuracy of the scorpions and the fact she never noticed the ships from her vantage point high in the sky. She would have had a view of several miles in every direction, more than enough to see them hiding behind a rock.
If she had spotted them, she would have been alert to them and plenty of time to dodge the bolts from Euron Sparrow.
There's also the fact that 3 successive shots hit Rhaegal from the prow of a ship, on water, not the most solid of firing platforms.

Yeah you didn’t read my post.

And ‘sniper accuracy’ really really isn’t the issue.

She didn’t know there would be snipers. You can’t plan for snipers.
It’s kind of the whole idea behind snipers.

Grayditch

I love how offended people are getting because people are holding the show to a standard that IT set and are disappointed and complaining about it. It's only a show? It's only a thread!

NuMarvel

how.gareth wrote: »

But didn’t dany and drogon manage to evade all the scorpions on the board the first time around when reagal was killed and she flew straight at them so it wasn’t a total surprise they managed it a second time

The second time around there was around 5 times as many ships though, plus all the scorpions on the walls of King's Landing as well. Even accounting for the element of surprise on Dany's side, it's understandable that people wonder how not a single one of them managed to get even a scratch on Drogon.

TerrorFirmer

I think in isolation E05 is fine. I mean in relatively modern times, a flak battery could open up on a single bomber and not score a hit. It's not entirely implausible and the overwhelming power of the dragon tallies with the lore we've heard about dragons.

Either, they could also have had is a few bolts landing, but failing to do any meaningful damage or make proper penetration of the dragon's scales (sort of like when Bronn scored a hit with an early model Scorpion at Kings Road). Probably would've went some way to striking a better balance.

The real problem though is the utterly ridiculous precedent set in E04 in particular, and inconsistent portrayal of how powerful the dragons actually are. It makes a slight muddle of E05.

2ndcoming

To use the show's own most used line of the past two seasons:

It doesn't matter now.

Stop moaning ffs

NuMarvel wrote: »

The second time around there was around 5 times as many ships though, plus all the scorpions on the walls of King's Landing as well. Even accounting for the element of surprise on Dany's side, it's understandable that people wonder how not a single one of them managed to get even a scratch on Drogon.

This is a really simple one.
Look again at the ones on the ship but especially the ones on the walls.
No capability to lift above about 65 degrees and the platforms on the walls were all built to attack pointing outwards. There’s only a small lip where they’d be hanging off outside the wall if they managed to turn it in towards the city.

Foxtrol

Grayditch wrote: »

I love how offended people are getting because people are holding the show to a standard that IT set and hare disappointed and complaining about it. It's only a show? It's only a thread!

What standard is this that IT set?

1. The standard where they continuously have characters coincidentally run into each other throughout the show to drive many aspects of the plot and now some fans are moaning when it happens in this episode when they dont like it?
   
2. The standard where characters rarely in life or death get what they 'deserve' and now fans are moaning when it happens in this episode when they dont like it?
   
3. The standard where characters repeatedly show unnatural levels marksmanship in one off situations but now fans are moaning when it happens in this season when they dont like it?
   
4. The standard where there isn't a full season of build up focused directly at characters making turns but now fans are moaning when it happens in this season when they dont like it?
   
5. The standard where characters regularly survive scenes where it is very implausible that they aren't severely injured or killed but now fans are moaning when it happens in this season when they dont like it?

I'm not sure what it is, but I'm seeing this repeated more and more in the likes of Marvel and Star Wars threads, where fans act like the thing they don't like in a specific movie is totally new to the series. Fine if you don't like what they did or that this instance didn't land well for you but don't pretend it wasn't there before.

Grayditch

The standard of writing... It's a noticeable drop between the creator and the tv guys. I know what I prefer.

TerrorFirmer

Foxtrol wrote: »

I'm not sure what it is, but I'm seeing this repeated more and more in the likes of Marvel and Star Wars threads, where fans act like the thing they don't like in a specific movie is totally new to the series. Fine if you don't like what they did or that this instance didn't land well for you but don't pretend it wasn't there before.

No-one is 'pretending' the show never had implausible situations or illogical narrative conveniences.

The difference is they happened in earlier seasons, but S7 and particularly S8 are rampant with them.

There isn't a film or TV production in existence that doesn't rely on some plot convenience but these things come in degrees.

It's daft to suggest that the problem is with audiences irrationally looking to find fault with S8 (Not sure why there's a global conspiracy against this season alone...)

GreeBo

NuMarvel wrote: »

Heated air expands, so if Drogon's flame is hot enough, it could cause the air in front of it to expand rapidly and generate sufficient force to knock down walls.

Sure it expands, but not with explosive force, in any case the force follows the path of least resistance, which is not 3M of stone wall.

Stop moaning ffs

GreeBo wrote: »

Sure it expands, but not with explosive force, in any case the force follows the path of least resistance, which is not 3M of stone wall.

We’re really complaining about thermal forces impact and physics...


Lads. There’s two tonnes of muscle teeth and fire / a dragon, flying through the air. A dragon.

Seriously

Tazzimus

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Yeah you didn’t read my post.

And ‘sniper accuracy’ really really isn’t the issue.

She didn’t know there would be snipers. You can’t plan for snipers.
It’s kind of the whole idea behind snipers.

I did, you didn't understand mine.

If she seen the fleet and just ignored it, that's just stupidity. At the very least she should have kept an eye on them to see what they're about.
Yes, she wasn't expecting them to have scorpions mounted on them, I don't have an issue with that part.
It's that at her vantage point, she would have been able to see the bolt coming and evaded.

I used sniper accuracy to describe how they managed to hit a moving target that high in the air, in succession, from something that itself had a moving base. The sea isn't level and steady, at the very least they could have let off a volley of bolts and that way three hitting would have made sense, not 3 one after the other like they were laser guided.

It was sloppily done just to get rid of a dragon because two attacking KL wouldn't have even been a fight.

I can see why it was done and don't really have an issue with it, just with how it was done. A giant crossbow on a boat should not be that accurate, even if you're looking in the wrong direction and don't see the ships.

Foxtrol

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

No-one is 'pretending' the show never had implausible situations or illogical narrative conveniences.

The difference is they happened in earlier seasons, but S7 and particularly S8 are rampant with them.

There isn't a film or TV production in existence that doesn't rely on some plot convenience but these things come in degrees.

It's daft to suggest that the problem is with audiences irrationally looking to find fault with S8 (Not sure why there's a global conspiracy against this season alone...)

Where have I suggested a global conspiracy?

Read back through the thread (and your own posts), there are plenty of posters making the exact claims that I highlighted. They aren't complaining about the number of instances, they are highlight specific situations and can be countered with several similar throughout the show.

The writing hasn't been as good as the earlier seasons but as GRRM knows himself, it is much easier expand a narrative than it is to contract it to a finish.

Stop moaning ffs

Also. If Dany did see the fleet. She would naturally assume it was Yara leading the iron fleet into her waters at dragonstone. It was an iron islands fleet under their sigil on the sails.

They were all massing forces before going to kings landing.

So she had no reason to expect attack from a ship, why would she? And if she did see the fleet, it’s a fleet that belongs to someone that just pledged allegiance to her. In Yara.

J. Marston

One of the first posts in this thread is me pondering how Drogon was so adept at dodging the Iron Fleet and the defences on the walls of King's Landing and I thought twice about posting it because I felt I was being too nit-picky.

But arguing the rotational capability of ballistae and the relative force of dragonfire to stone is another level, lads!

GreeBo

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

We’re really complaining about thermal forces impact and physics...


Lads. There’s two tonnes of muscle teeth and fire / a dragon, flying through the air. A dragon.

Seriously

"Seriously" what?
We know its a dragon....whats that got to do with anything?
If dragonfire always had that impact it would be one thing, but it doesnt.
Many times queen-loolah has been a couple of metres away from the flames without a hitch...sure even when they strafe the city there is very little damage when compared to *the most fortified walls in the city*, which explode!


People are, rightfully, complaining about consistency within a world.
Dragons are established...thats fine, exploding reinforced walls are not.

NuMarvel

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

This is a really simple one.
Look again at the ones on the ship but especially the ones on the walls.
No capability to lift above about 65 degrees and the platforms on the walls were all built to attack pointing outwards. There’s only a small lip where they’d be hanging off outside the wall if they managed to turn it in towards the city.

That sounds plausible. And anyone who designed something like that deserves to have a mountain crush them!

(See what I did there? )

nix

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Also. If Dany did see the fleet. She would naturally assume it was Yara leading the iron fleet into her waters at dragonstone. It was an iron islands fleet under their sigil on the sails.

They were all massing forces before going to kings landing.

So she had no reason to expect attack from a ship, why would she? And if she did see the fleet, it’s a fleet that belongs to someone that just pledged allegiance to her. In Yara.

Yara's fleet isnt that big, and Yara's in the iron islands holding it down, it would take aaaages to sail from The Iron islands to Dragonstone. She would also send a raven if she was going to do something like that, and kings landing isnt far from Dragonstone so you would want to be a complete tool to think its Yara and not Euron :rolleyes:

TerrorFirmer

Foxtrol wrote: »

They aren't complaining about the number of instances, they are highlight specific situations and can be countered with several similar throughout the show.

The writing hasn't been as good as the earlier seasons but as GRRM knows himself, it is much easier expand a narrative than it is to contract it to a finish.

Of course they're going to point out specific examples, we're talking about a current season and specific episodes.

The whole point is that S8 has got far, far more instances of poor writing and repeat use of illogical/implausible instances than other seasons.

Every episode since E03 is full of them, not just one or two in isolation (which as I've said, is quite normal for any work of fiction).

No-one ever claimed that earlier seasons have no plot conveniences or implausible situations, just far less of them.

On your second point, that's not really an excuse for the poor quality of writing.

The narrative being created by D&D is inherently perfectly fine.

Daenerys goes mad. Kings Landing is razed. The Night King is defeated at Winterfell. Varys turns against the Dragon Queen. And so on.

These are all perfectly fine..... plot wise. The problem is how they're being arrived that and the script that's driving these narrative choices.

A lot of people are making the mistake that people unhappy with the season just don't like the direction the narrative is going.

It's absolutely not the narrative - very few people have an issue with the overall narrative which is a completely natural conclusion to S1-S7.

It's the lazy, rushed, sloppy writing behind it.

D&D also wrote most of S5 and S6 without GRRM and they're far better scripted, so there's really not really much excuse other than that they rushed the end so they could just move on from GOT.

Foxtrol

GreeBo wrote: »

"Seriously" what?
We know its a dragon....whats that got to do with anything?
If dragonfire always had that impact it would be one thing, but it doesnt.
Many times queen-loolah has been a couple of metres away from the flames without a hitch...sure even when they strafe the city there is very little damage when compared to *the most fortified walls in the city*, which explode!


People are, rightfully, complaining about consistency within a world.
Dragons are established...thats fine, exploding reinforced walls are not.

Think you're a season late with your complaints, we saw a dragon take down 'The Wall', which was quite a bit larger and more reinforced than what exploded in the last episode.

Animals can run, fly, swim at different speeds, it isn't crazy to think a dragon could control the temperature of it's flames in a given situation.

GreeBo

Foxtrol wrote: »

Think you're a season late with your complaints, we saw a dragon take down 'The Wall', which was quite a bit larger and more reinforced than what exploded in the last episode.

Animals can run, fly, swim at different speeds, it isn't crazy to think a dragon could control the temperature of it's flames in a given situation.

I guess you are referring to the wall of ice, rather than the wall of stone I'm talking about.

Flames destroying an ice wall are acceptable, Ice melts, water turns to steam and explodes.

Solid rocks on the other hand...well they melt you see, and we have already been shown that they melt in multiple previous scenes

The thing about Drogon being killed because two dragons wouldn't have been a fair fight...


I would have much preferred if BOTH dragons made it to Kings Landing, most things happen as they did, except there's about 3 scorpions left.


Get to the Angelus bit :pac: Cersei knows it's over, Dany knows it's over, Drogon is chilling on a wall....

Cersei breaks the silence
"Take that dragon"

Drogon killed

Dany goes batsh*t

Episode carries on.

turbbo

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

We’re really complaining about thermal forces impact and physics...


Lads. There’s two tonnes of muscle teeth and fire / a dragon, flying through the air. A dragon.

Seriously

Ahh but was it an African or European dragon?

Foxtrol

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Of course they're going to point out specific examples, we're talking about a current season and specific episodes.

The whole point is that S8 has got far, far more instances of poor writing and repeat use of illogical/implausible instances than other seasons.

Every episode since E03 is full of them, not just one or two in isolation (which as I've said, is quite normal for any work of fiction).

No-one ever claimed that earlier seasons have no plot conveniences or implausible situations, just far less of them.

On your second point, that's not really an excuse for the poor quality of writing.

The narrative being created by D&D is inherently perfectly fine.

Daenerys goes mad. Kings Landing is razed. The Night King is defeated at Winterfell. Varys turns against the Dragon Queen. And so on.

These are all perfectly fine..... plot wise. The problem is how they're being arrived that and the script that's driving these narrative choices.

A lot of people are making the mistake that people unhappy with the season just don't like the direction the narrative is going.

It's absolutely not the narrative - very few people have an issue with the overall narrative which is a completely natural conclusion to S1-S7.

It's the lazy, rushed, sloppy writing behind it.

D&D also wrote most of S5 and S6 without GRRM and they're far better scripted, so there's really not really much excuse other than that they rushed the end so they could just move on from GOT.

Some of your complaints there are valid and people have the right to not like the story D&D put together, however many are trying to justify not liking how things have gone based on being incredibly pedantic about things here that they let repeatedly slide before or claiming characters are suddenly acting against how they were written over previous seasons while ignoring everything that disagrees with how they feel.

Tazzimus

Deleted User wrote: »

The thing about Drogon being killed because two dragons wouldn't have been a fair fight...


I would have much preferred if BOTH dragons made it to Kings Landing, most things happen as they did, except there's about 3 scorpions left.


Get to the Angelus bit :pac: Cersei knows it's over, Dany knows it's over, Drogon is chilling on a wall....

Cersei breaks the silence
"Take that dragon"

Drogon killed

Dany goes batsh*t

Episode carries on.

Rhaegal

I mentioned similar earlier, better way to off a dragon and kick off Dany's rage sesh.
That or, as someone else suggested, killed by the NK in the battle for Winterfell.

At least either of those way's people would be more accepting, I'd imagine.

ardinn

None of you ever do archery? its hard enough with a stationary target never mind a flying object at some points about a mile away.

If i have any gripe its how they managed to hit rhaegar or whatever his name is at all!

Tazzimus

Tazzimus wrote: »

Rhaegal

I mentioned similar earlier, better way to off a dragon and kick off Dany's rage sesh.
That or, as someone else suggested, killed by the NK in the battle for Winterfell.

At least either of those way's people would be more accepting, I'd imagine.

They all look the same to me

#notracist

martingriff

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Of course they're going to point out specific examples, we're talking about a current season and specific episodes.

The whole point is that S8 has got far, far more instances of poor writing and repeat use of illogical/implausible instances than other seasons.

Every episode since E03 is full of them, not just one or two in isolation (which as I've said, is quite normal for any work of fiction).

No-one ever claimed that earlier seasons have no plot conveniences or implausible situations, just far less of them.

On your second point, that's not really an excuse for the poor quality of writing.

The narrative being created by D&D is inherently perfectly fine.

Daenerys goes mad. Kings Landing is razed. The Night King is defeated at Winterfell. Varys turns against the Dragon Queen. And so on.

These are all perfectly fine..... plot wise. The problem is how they're being arrived that and the script that's driving these narrative choices.

A lot of people are making the mistake that people unhappy with the season just don't like the direction the narrative is going.

It's absolutely not the narrative - very few people have an issue with the overall narrative which is a completely natural conclusion to S1-S7.

It's the lazy, rushed, sloppy writing behind it.

D&D also wrote most of S5 and S6 without GRRM and they're far better scripted, so there's really not really much excuse other than that they rushed the end so they could just move on from GOT.

D&D had been offered more seasons and should have taken them instead they have rushed stuff to end because on there next big thing. The fight with the Night King only lasting 1 fight maybe showing some fighting at the wall or on the way. The fight between Cersi & Danny could have been 3 to 4 episodes at least each.

I enjoyed this episode but the ending for Cersi and Jamie was awfull. Did they do the prophesy about Cersi in the show because if so they forgot it. Jamie deserved more then Euron. Arys cant be killed

Foxtrol

GreeBo wrote: »

I guess you are referring to the wall of ice, rather than the wall of stone I'm talking about.

Flames destroying an ice wall are acceptable, Ice melts, water turns to steam and explodes.

Solid rocks on the other hand...well they melt you see, and we have already been shown that they melt in multiple previous scenes

An 8,000 year ice wall around 200 meters tall and 90 meters deep reinforced by magic being taken down by one in minutes would require a decent amount of power.

As far as melting stone, if you're referring to Harrenhal it was supposed to be better defended than KL, with much thicker walls.

This really falls into the pedantic corner again

dsmythy

ardinn wrote: »

None of you ever do archery? its hard enough with a stationary target never mind a flying object at some points about a mile away.

If i have any gripe its how they managed to hit rhaegar or whatever his name is at all!

Even if they unleashed a barrage on him and someone fluked one shot in the head or neck it might have been accepted more.

GreeBo

Foxtrol wrote: »

An 8,000 year ice wall around 200 meters tall and 90 meters deep reinforced by magic being taken down by one in minutes would require a decent amount of power.

As far as melting stone, if you're referring to Harrenhal it was supposed to be better defended than KL, with much thicker walls.

This really falls into the pedantic corner again

Doesnt matter how thick they were, the stone melted, didn't explode like he had been eating C4 the night before.

Perhaps you just have lower standards than the rest of us "pedants".:rolleyes:

TerrorFirmer

martingriff wrote: »

I enjoyed this episode but the ending for Cersi and Jamie was awfull. Did they do the prophesy about Cersi in the show because if so they forgot it. Jamie deserved more then Euron. Arys cant be killed

I've already posted here why I thought Jaime and Cersei was a good ending for both. It does make sense, but people don't have to like it of course. But it was a realistic ending I thought.

Thankfully Euron 'getting' him was irrelevant in the end - if Jaime had died at Euron's hand I would have been absolutely raging.

vetinari

Christ, people complaining about stones exploding instead of melting is pure pedantry.
There are much more valid reasons to complain about.
If you're focused on that level of nitpicking, your haterism has reached a point of no return.

I get it, it happened to me with Dexter. You get so soured by what is happening in the show that nothing the show can do will redeem it for you.

Stop moaning ffs

Tazzimus wrote: »

I did, you didn't understand mine.

If she seen the fleet and just ignored it, that's just stupidity. At the very least she should have kept an eye on them to see what they're about.
Yes, she wasn't expecting them to have scorpions mounted on them, I don't have an issue with that part.
It's that at her vantage point, she would have been able to see the bolt coming and evaded.

I used sniper accuracy to describe how they managed to hit a moving target that high in the air, in succession, from something that itself had a moving base. The sea isn't level and steady, at the very least they could have let off a volley of bolts and that way three hitting would have made sense, not 3 one after the other like they were laser guided.

It was sloppily done just to get rid of a dragon because two attacking KL wouldn't have even been a fight.

I can see why it was done and don't really have an issue with it, just with how it was done. A giant crossbow on a boat should not be that accurate, even if you're looking in the wrong direction and don't see the ships.

I have a hd tv and I didn’t see the bolts coming at her.

You expect her to see

Missiles she isn’t expecting and an attack she isn’t expecting
You want her to pick them out At speed regardless of their own speed
From a fleet she has or hasn’t seen

You are really really nitpicking but irrationally into the bargain.

They had what, 20 ships? They all fired at once.
Any good msrksman knows you don’t aim for the target you aim for where it’s going to be. That based on your training and experience and knowing the weights and distances and variables involved in using the weapon.


Waaaahhhh we never saw eurons fleet bein trained how could they have made those shots?!?!?!



It’s just people like complaining and will bitch and moan no matter the feck what.

No problem with a dragon flying in the sky / problem with how signtlines and physics works.

Just laughable

vetinari

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I think in isolation E05 is fine. I mean in relatively modern times, a flak battery could open up on a single bomber and not score a hit. It's not entirely implausible and the overwhelming power of the dragon tallies with the lore we've heard about dragons.

Either, they could also have had is a few bolts landing, but failing to do any meaningful damage or make proper penetration of the dragon's scales (sort of like when Bronn scored a hit with an early model Scorpion at Kings Road). Probably would've went some way to striking a better balance.

The real problem though is the utterly ridiculous precedent set in E04 in particular, and inconsistent portrayal of how powerful the dragons actually are. It makes a slight muddle of E05.

I agree that the scorpions were far too accurate in E04. I'm glad that they dialed it back in E05. I'm willing after E05 to give them the benefit of the doubt for E04 (that Daenerys was taken by surprise). I mean ultimately don't people prefer what happened in E05. A dragon should be a complete overmatch for stationary scorpions.

Stop moaning ffs

GreeBo wrote: »

"Seriously" what?
We know its a dragon....whats that got to do with anything?
If dragonfire always had that impact it would be one thing, but it doesnt.
Many times queen-loolah has been a couple of metres away from the flames without a hitch...sure even when they strafe the city there is very little damage when compared to *the most fortified walls in the city*, which explode!


People are, rightfully, complaining about consistency within a world.
Dragons are established...thats fine, exploding reinforced walls are not.

You are absolutely watching the wrong show. Or you just like giving out.

One of them offshoot books Martin wrote Dragons are almost spiritually tied to their rider and nobody else will be allowed on them. They act on the mood and reflect the mental state of their rider in battle. Sometimes past control.
I’ll try find the page. Think it was the books on the history of the targaryens.

Mean time. Carry on complaining

martingriff

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I've already posted here why I thought Jaime and Cersei was a good ending for both. It does make sense, but people don't have to like it of course. But it was a realistic ending I thought.

Thankfully Euron 'getting' him was irrelevant in the end - if Jaime had died at Euron's hand I would have been absolutely raging.

I have no problem with them dying together that is fine. I do feel it does undo some of his redemption the way he was going back try and talk her down. Maybe it to show without power and just her and in love she could be somewhat good but to me it was flat.

Tazzimus

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I have a hd tv and I didn’t see the bolts coming at her.

You expect her to see

Missiles she isn’t expecting and an attack she isn’t expecting
You want her to pick them out At speed regardless of their own speed
From a fleet she has or hasn’t seen

You are really really nitpicking but irrationally into the bargain.

They had what, 20 ships? They all fired at once.
Any good msrksman knows you don’t aim for the target you aim for where it’s going to be. That based on your training and experience and knowing the weights and distances and variables involved in using the weapon.


Waaaahhhh we never saw eurons fleet bein trained how could they have made those shots?!?!?!



It’s just people like complaining and will bitch and moan no matter the feck what.

No problem with a dragon flying in the sky / problem with how signtlines and physics works.

Just laughable

I don't know whether to laugh at this or facepalm...

You'd be doing well to see the bolts when the camera was focused mainly on her and the dragons..
I expect her to see 10+ ships from several hundred feet in the air, including Eurons Silence, which is gigantic and easily recognisable, and at least think "I wonder what they're at"
When she was divebombing them, she seen those bolts easy enough to avoid them at much closer range.

As for the marksmen comment, yes you always lead the target, and yes you should be aware of your surroundings and take it into account when firing. How do you take into account the fact you're not firing from a solid base, the sea will be rocking the boats, throwing the shots off. You can't compensate for that quickly enough for something that big as you don't know what way it's going to move you. Firing three pinpoint accurate shots, at that angle, at that distance, against a moving target, from a moving base, is practically impossible.
If they had fired a volley and three hit him out of that, grand, believable.
But 3 one after the other all on target, a target that would have been knocked off it's course a bit after getting hit by the first bolt or two? No..

Effects

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I have a hd tv.

It's 2019. Who doesn't have a HD tv?