"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

TerrorFirmer

Greyfox wrote: »

The problem is so many people loved Jamie as they felt he turned from a bad person to a good person. By going back to Cersei and not killing her he didnt die as a good person, I think if he had of killed Cersei I could of forgiven all his bad deeds.

People love him because he's one of the most complicated characters on the show.

Is he a bad person who does good things, or a good person who does bad things?

That perception changes as the show progresses and he's still incredibly multi-layered but Cersei continues to bring out the worst in him until the end.

He fought the 'right' fight by going north, but he didn't switch sides or take up arms against his former allies by returning to her.

He just went to die alongside his one true love knowing that life holds little for him without her.

Doing that doesn't make him bad - he did briefly flirt with the notion of a happy ever after with Brienne - but found he wasn't able to.

It's all true to his character. A flawed man who does grow, but remains shacked to toxic love in the end.

The things we do for love. Indeed!

As much as I dislike how they've handled this season, I was taken back by the perfection of his ending, and that of his sister.

They met the same fate but it's a bittersweet ending for Jaime on his terms....it's a cruel, pitiful end for Cersei, the woman 'not half as smart' as she thought she was, just as her father predicted.

is_that_so

Foxtrol wrote: »

Spending 8 seasons horribly killing anyone who she deems to be her enemies or associates of her enemies and threatening to burn down cities followed by in a short period ripping away her entire support system that curbed those bad tendencies, through death and betrayal, is a lot more development than sulking and pouting. Just because you didn’t see it or agree with it doesn’t mean it wasn’t there.

She went psycho almost in an instant. That's really not how you set up such a fundamental switch credibly and there was no real conflict apart from the aforementioned sulk. It's not so much that she did it, as deranged as it was, it's that she got less than two episodes to completely lose it. That is down to the poor writing and racing to get to the end of it.

spodoinkle

Did anyone else miss the fact that Varys was trying to poison Dani?? That went totally over my head.

snotboogie

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I remember people thinking that was really stupid. I don't recall anyone thinking it was a brilliant idea. Pretty much all the plot holes you pointed out were from season 7 and they were also pointed out as season 7 was airing. Season 7 is generally accepted as being a weak season, with only this season being weaker.

The first four seasons were stellar. 5 & 6 weren't on the same level but still good over all with some brilliant episodes. There has been a gradual drop off in quality. 7 & 8 are what you'd expect from a typical fantasy tv show - heros put in situations where the odds are stacked against them but miraculously survive etc. We didn't get that in the earlier episodes. Ned's beheading and the red wedding shocked non-book readers because they weren't used to the good guys losing out. That's what made the show stand out. Anyone could die.

In 8 we have shocks for the sake of shocks eg Euron shooting Rhaegal. The change in how the story is told is really jarring for anyone who has followed from season 1. I'm not giving up one episode from the finish but if the story had been told from the beginning in typical fantasy style, I don't think I would have made it through 8 episodes. I was an avid Walking Dead fan but gave up around season 7 because there was no end goal in sight and I got bored of the show. If GOT was open ended and not finishing next week, I'd drop it.

Of course I'm not saying everybody accepted season 7, I'm talking about people who talked about this episode as a turning point.

Loafing Oaf

spodoinkle wrote: »

Did anyone else miss the fact that Varys was trying to poison Dani?? That went totally over my head.

I didn't pick up on that either.

Paddy Cow

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

They met the same fate but it's a bittersweet ending for Jaime on his terms....it's a cruel, pitiful end for Cersei, the woman 'not half as smart' as she thought she was, just as her father predicted.

That sums it up perfectly.

GreeBo

Effects wrote: »

You've seen season 7, yeah?

But thats not explosives, thats projected fire blowing things out of the way.

Its a bit of a leap to suggest the quoted pic explains how Drogon can blow up reinforced walls that are metres thick.

HalloweenJack

For me, there were two very satisfying events: Cersei's death and Dany's descent into madness.

We all know what Cersei is. Even when KL was burning all around her, she was still determined to put on a brave face. "The Red Keep has never fallen" was her defiant stance. To have her still being so callous and selfish right until the end was true to form. To then see her lose everything and turn into a desperate, blubbering wreck was a more satisfying ending for her than being publicly beheaded by her enemies or scorched by a dragon could ever have been. Everything crumbled around her. She only had Jamie to comfort her and that, in an odd way, was fittingly romantic. These two people who were always obsessed with each other got to die together even though they had lost everything they wanted. As Jamie said, "Nothing else matters". Even though it was Cersei, I felt sad for her. Similarly for Jamie, he tried so hard to be good but this woman had a hold on him and he just couldn't break it. It is a tragic romance.

Dany's fixation on the throne has been there from the beginning and her determination to have it has gone too far. In history, when has there ever been a power-hungry ruler (even those who led popular uprisings) who finally got what they wanted and decided to live peacefully ever after? In war, even the "good guys" have an awful lot of blood on their hands. Greyworm attacking the surrendering soldiers was a shock but I think people have got it into their heads that "Dany = good, Cersei = bad" when conflicts are never that black and white. What we saw is a realistic representation of one person's lust for power overtake any concern for the common good and there being no moral winners in any war.

EDIT: One more thing about Dany's attack on KL, which I don't remember from the episode. Surely they would have known that Jamie escaped and that Tyrion was the last one to see him. This might have explained Dany ignoring Tyrion's advice and destroying KL.

The Hound and the Mountain was a bit cartoonish, though also a good end for the Hound as he overcame his cowardice to accept he'd have to die to get his revenge. I did laugh out loud at Qyburn's demise, though.

Jamie and Euron was both cartoonish and pointless. If it was some sort of battle for Cersei, it fell a bit flat. We all know Cersei used Euron and he didn't seem to be madly in love with her either. It was a fight between a devoted lover and someone who shagged her a few times. You can guarantee Cersei wouldn't have given a ****e if Euron had made his way up to be with her at the end.

Tyrion and Jon have put themselves firmly in Dany's corner and they both seem powerless to stop her even though they know she's gone too far. It's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. I can see Tyrion and the Starks trying to take her out in the final episode. How they do it should be interesting.

intellectual dosser

is_that_so wrote: »

She went psycho almost in an instant. That's really not how you set up such a fundamental switch credibly and there was no real conflict apart from the aforementioned sulk. It's not so much that she did it, as deranged as it was, it's that she got less than two episodes to completely lose it. That is down to the poor writing and racing to get to the end of it.

I think she's showed cause for concern for a quite a while. Tyrion has been working to convince her of civil ways of doing things for a long time - since her 'break the wheel' declaration. She's been toying with the idea of roasting Kings Landing since S7E1.

Executing the Tarly's was indication that she was probably psycho, but left enough for us not to be fully convinced. In S8E5 Varys mentioned that Targaryan's are generally a coin toss in terms of their sanity, this teed it up for Dany to finally show which side she's on.

I had been suspecting for a while her arc would follow that of her fathers....burn them all.

NuMarvel

GreeBo wrote: »

But thats not explosives, thats projected fire blowing things out of the way.

Its a bit of a leap to suggest the quoted pic explains how Drogon can blow up reinforced walls that are metres thick.

Heated air expands, so if Drogon's flame is hot enough, it could cause the air in front of it to expand rapidly and generate sufficient force to knock down walls.

turbbo

GreeBo wrote: »

But thats not explosives, thats projected fire blowing things out of the way.

Its a bit of a leap to suggest the quoted pic explains how Drogon can blow up reinforced walls that are metres thick.

Yeah its warmer in kings landing dontchaknow!

I'm letting it slide - but I think it was a rough cut to go with Drogon destroying the city, not saying it wasn't beautifully made, but it didn't seem to be based off any historical performance, it seemed to be just a way to push the story in a particular direction - I think it just felt rushed and not carefully considered like previous episodes. Yeah Dany is losing it and I buy into that - but when did Drogon turn into a flying nuclear reactor?

is_that_so

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I think she's showed cause for concern for a quite a while. Tyrion has been working to convince her of civil ways of doing things for a long time - since her 'break the wheel' declaration. She's been toying with the idea of roasting Kings Landing since S7E1.

Executing the Tarly's was indication that she was probably psycho, but left enough for us not to be fully convinced. In S8E5 Varys mentioned that Targaryan's are generally a coin toss in terms of their sanity, this teed it up for Dany to finally show which side she's on.

I had been suspecting for a while her arc would follow that of her fathers....burn them all.

Which as I've said is a complete waste of seven seasons of her character development. Even on TV/movies people don't just become raging psychopaths. Gotta set it up and that way whether you agree with it or not it is her story. They didn't and opted for her action as a plot device but they can use all of these excuses to explain why they didn't need to.

RickBlaine

I was chatting with some mates at lunch about better ways this episode could have happened without completely rewriting the season and we came up with this:
- Missandre is killed during the Battle of Winterfell in the crypts not Jorah.
- In the previous episode, there is no sudden attack by Euron. Dany goes to parlay with Cersei, not to rescue a hostage, but on Tyrion’s advice to try a non-violent resolution. That scene plays out the same but Cersei orders the execution of her second dragon with one of those scorpions on the wall. Dany wants to attack immediately but Tyrion and Jorah warn she is out gunned with the army back on Dragonstone.
- As Dany’s party returns to Dragonstone, Euron attacks and Jorah is taken hostage. Dany has already flown back to Dragonstone by that point.
- In this episode, Euron is killed during Dany’s initial attack.
- Jaime arrives at King’s Landing and also tries to convince Cersei to surrender peacefully. I think there would have been an earlier scene with Tyrion and Jaime discussing this because both brothers want an end to the violence. Rather than Jaime leaving Winterfell to go to Cersei, he travels with Tyrion to Dragonstone.
- Cersei refuses to give up power and reveals to Jaime that she has restocked her supplies of wildfire and will burn the whole city rather than let Dany have it. Obviously Jaime is appalled.
- The battle continues in the city and Dany’s forces win because Cersei’s army surrenders.
- Cersei kills Jorah purely to hurt Dany (as she did with Missandre on the show).
- Jaime has to kill Cersei to prevent her from igniting the wildfire and burning the city. This devastates him but it had to be done.
- Dany flies to the window of the red keep, sees Jorah’s body, and that sets off her rage. She destroys the red keep, killing Jaime. She then continues burning the city as on the show.

I’m sure there are problems with this and Dany definitely needs a few more episodes before to fully sell her fragile mental state, and of course the finer details would need to be worked out, but I think it would have been more satisfying overall, it would have given Jaime and Cersei more active roles (especially Cersei who spent most of the episode doing nothing), Jaime would have has more scenes with Cersei instead of a pointless fight with Euron, and it would still have set up Dany as the mad queen for the finale with Jorah’s murder a more meaningful reason for her change.

is_that_so

Not the worst outcome and makes more sense.

Foxtrol

is_that_so wrote: »

She went psycho almost in an instant. That's really not how you set up such a fundamental switch credibly and there was no real conflict apart from the aforementioned sulk. It's not so much that she did it, as deranged as it was, it's that she got less than two episodes to completely lose it. That is down to the poor writing and racing to get to the end of it.

But she didn’t go ‘psycho’ in an instant, it has been building for 8 seasons. Just because her previous psycho actions were against people you saw as bad guys, doesn’t make them any less psycho.

Discussing this further is pointless if you have such blinkers on that you put the multiple examples of her burning, crucifying, threats to do exactly what she did to Kings Landing, other horrid acts down as ‘sulking’.

It isn’t even that her actions are that psycho in a completely lost it sense, they are basically the only route she had to win and potentially hold on to the iron throne.

Mickeroo

Foxtrol wrote: »

But she didn’t go ‘psycho’ in an instant, it has been building for 8 seasons. Just because her previous psycho actions were against people you saw as bad guys, doesn’t make them any less psycho.

Discussing this further is pointless if you have such blinkers on that you put the multiple examples of her burning, crucifying, threats to do exactly what she did to Kings Landing, other horrid acts down as ‘sulking’.

It isn’t even that her actions are that psycho in a completely lost it sense, they are basically the only route she had to win and potentially hold on to the iron throne.

Hows that? She literally waited until after the battle had been won and the city surrendered.

Tazzimus

NuMarvel wrote: »

Heated air expands, so if Drogon's flame is hot enough, it could cause the air in front of it to expand rapidly and generate sufficient force to knock down walls.

I would have preferred if it went like the Harrenhal attack, where the dragons melted the stone rather than exploding it.
Would have made Drogon's power all the more impressive.

MisterAnarchy

Foxtrol wrote: »

It isn’t even that her actions are that psycho in a completely lost it sense, they are basically the only route she had to win and potentially hold on to the iron throne.

The Lannisters had surrendered ,Dany had won the throne ,so there was no need for her rage on innocent people ,it didn't make any sense at all.
How was it the only route she had to win the throne ??

It was like the end of Con Air ,oh look we have loads of money left over lets blow everything up .

turbbo

Tazzimus wrote: »

I would have preferred if it went like the Harrenhal attack, where the dragons melted the stone rather than exploding it.
Would have made Drogon's power all the more impressive.

Yeah I reckon that would have looked better probably a lot more cash needed to do that though.

is_that_so

Foxtrol wrote: »

But she didn’t go ‘psycho’ in an instant, it has been building for 8 seasons. Just because her previous psycho actions were against people you saw as bad guys, doesn’t make them any less psycho.

Discussing this further is pointless if you have such blinkers on that you put the multiple examples of her burning, crucifying, threats to do exactly what she did to Kings Landing, other horrid acts down as ‘sulking’.

It isn’t even that her actions are that psycho in a completely lost it sense, they are basically the only route she had to win and potentially hold on to the iron throne.

Nah, there was no plot development for her to transform from indignant and righteous to out and out psychopath. I don't know where you're getting this good guy bad guy stuff from. Your examples have plenty of supporting plot to show why she chose to do so. Most of its run you can explain events from what has evolved before regardless of your own feelings about it.

I'm really not sure that last bit holds water at all. There were at least half a dozen credible ways to address it that didn't make her burn everything.

Foxtrol

Mickeroo wrote: »

Hows that? She literally waited until after the battle had been won and the city surrendered.

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

The Lannisters had surrendered ,Dany had won the throne ,so there was no need for her rage on innocent people ,it didn't make any sense at all.
How was it the only route she had to win the throne ??

It was like the end of Con Air ,oh look we have loads of money left over lets blow everything up .

The army she brought over the narrow sea is basically gone, her allies from Dorne and Highgarden are dead, the Greyjoys only had enough men to take an undefended Iron Islands, her advisors are all dead or she feels betrayed her, she no longer has the best claim to the throne, the people love Jon and even Cersei more than her, she suspects Jon’s family are plotting against her.

Yes, if she stops at the bells she may sit on the throne, but for how long before someone takes her out? She says it herself in the episode, if she believes she cant rule through love so instead she chooses fear. After seeing what she did to KL, you’d imagine people would think twice before another great house would try to take her on. It is basically what the Lannisters have done over the years with the Rains of Castamere.

Also, it isn’t like ruling through fear is out of character, it is how she ruled in Essos to everyone who didn’t see her as their savior.

Foxtrol

is_that_so wrote: »

Nah, there was no plot development for her to transform from indignant and righteous to out and out psychopath. I don't know where you're getting this good guy bad guy stuff from. Your examples have plenty of supporting plot to show why she chose to do so. Most of its run you can explain events from what has evolved before regardless of your own feelings about it.

I'm really not sure that last bit holds water at all. There were at least half a dozen credible ways to address it that didn't make her burn everything.

The whole point is that the show is written in a way that her actions previously can be justified when you look at it from one angle but if you look at it from another she’s always been, to use your term, ‘a psychopath’.

She justified horribly barbaric acts and you as the viewer went along with her because you saw them as deserving of the fate, despite evidence otherwise, until now where the writers flip it and you don’t agree with who her targets are. Sure, it was fine that she crucified 169 men because they were slavers and some slavers crucified the same number of slaves, but if you look at it another way she indiscriminately crucified 169 men with no trial, simply based on their social standing and the actions of some of their peers.

Alpha_zero

Hey guys would you say Drogon is a unisex name?

Peatys

Alpha_zero wrote: »

Hey guys would you say Drogon is a unisex name?

Absolutely. Go for it.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/changing_your_name_by_deed_poll.html

is_that_so

Foxtrol wrote: »

The whole point is that the show is written in a way that her actions previously can be justified when you look at it from one angle but if you look at it from another she’s always been, to use your term, ‘a psychopath’.

She justified horribly barbaric acts and you as the viewer went along with her because you saw them as deserving of the fate, despite evidence otherwise, until now where the writers flip it and you don’t agree with who her targets are. Sure, it was fine that she crucified 169 men because they were slavers and some slavers crucified the same number of slaves, but if you look at it another way she indiscriminately crucified 169 men with no trial, simply based on their social standing and the actions of some of their peers.

She opted, through the plot to help the slaves and they refused to play ball. You could see it was a definite option, not fine under any circumstances, but the plot did lead to that possibility. Other examples were also plot-driven. Here we have a woman suddenly deciding to burn the hell out of a city and its people but with no plot development save possibly one single line about fear. There really was nothing to stop them setting this up properly. I imagine I'd still think it was a poor idea but as least it would have been planned out.

Podge_irl

Foxtrol wrote: »

But she didn’t go ‘psycho’ in an instant, it has been building for 8 seasons. Just because her previous psycho actions were against people you saw as bad guys, doesn’t make them any less psycho.

I think, more importantly, they were people that she saw as bad guys.

So the trick is assuming that she know thinks every living person in KL is a bad guy even after they've surrendered the city. She could have accomplished her goal simply by burning down the Red Keep alone after all. They did touch on this when she referenced the citizens not rising up like the slaves had, but considering they just had - to a degree - done that when she went berserk it just doesn't really track.

storker

Feisar wrote: »

On the Cersei death, she wasn't a warrior or a dragon rider or whatever, hard to see her go out in an epic fashion. Although Olenna Tyrell went out with style. God do you remember those dizzy heights?

Olenna was more worthy of it, a bit of a class act. Cersei just had cunning and cruelty, and regularly proved Tywin right about being not as smart as she thought she was.

Honestly? That was boring.

How did they manage to make such an event lack all feels?
Tyrion is an idiot now.
Where is the Jon who rallied the wild folk and had them cross the wall? Now he just sits back and waits for Danny to level a city.
Jamie... Oh dear seven faces, what have they done to you?
Cersie becomes a nothing (fair enough that it can happen but she becomes a whimpering fool)

And the BIGGEST fight of the series becomes a badly edited and paced stairway fight

naughto

Robbed from reddit
https://m.imgur.com/a/CoyWKMP

kerplun k

I’m wondering if the destruction of Kings Landing will make an appearance in the opening credits next week.