"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

nix

leggo wrote: »

Nix assumed it ‘clearly’ had to have been foreshadowing NK because...snow? (Even though it’s still winter as all of this happening, the NK dying didn’t change the season) But that’s just not possible with what he’s saying, the NK hadn't even been introduced at that stage sure, and he’s a show invention. Therefore, he doesn’t understand what he’s saying. QED.

Really? Thats what your point is? ****ing hell man, he may not have been seen yet but the threat of the white walkers has been there from the get go, and it ended up being there was a night king. It in no way supports anything you are claiming :rolleyes:

J. Marston

awec wrote: »

I wish they hadn't taken his helmet off. I think that showing the "zombie" Gregor Clegane was always going to be exceptionally difficult to avoid making him look a bit naff, and I think the helmet off reveal was unnecessary.

He doesn't look like a deader version of the Mountain that fought Oberyn, he just looks like a completely different character.

I liked it because it led to a line from Sandor that I thought was very good...

"Yeah, that's you. That's what you've always been."

Adamocovic

md23040 wrote: »

At least we found out that The Mountain and Anakin Skywalker are related.

I in my tired state at 6am did a double glance, was wondering why the Mountain now looked like Varys!

PressRun

And why did Tyrion tell Daenerys about Varys?
He knows deep down that Varys is right.

Don't know which is more exciting; The show, or seeing who leggo will have a stupid fight with this week.

Penn

PressRun wrote: »

And why did Tyrion tell Daenerys about Varys?
He knows deep down that Varys is right.

I think Tyrion thought he might still be able to convince Dany not to attack King's Landing, but to do that he had to be back on her side. Her trust in both was waning and Tyrion knew she'd likely never trust Varys again regardless, he told her about Varys to win enough good grace to try convince her not to attack KL.

I didn't pick up on a possible intent to poison her though, I just thought it was because Varys had betrayed her trust and was seeking for Jon to replace her.

leggo

nix wrote: »

Really? Thats what your point is? ****ing hell man, he may not have been seen yet but the threat of the white walkers has been there from the get go, and it ended up being there was a night king. It in no way supports anything you are claiming :rolleyes:

The Night King doesn't exist in the books. There's a character called 'The Night's King', who was a mystical figure like Bran the Builder, GRRM has as good as confirmed that the Night King we know from the show is D&D's invention. And he didn't exist then. A word hadn't been spoken about him and he didn't show up for two more seasons after the vision. We knew about the White Walkers, we had no idea they had a leader.

Meanwhile, we DO know that they did know the ending to the books when they wrote it (again, this). So why would they foreshadow something that they weren't going to do when they knew what they were?

Oh yeah. Snow. :pac:

Mod: User given a day off

nix

leggo wrote: »

The Night King doesn't exist in the books. There's a character called 'The Night's King', who was a mystical figure like Bran the Builder, GRRM has as good as confirmed that the Night King we know from the show is D&D's invention. And he didn't exist then. A word hadn't been spoken about him and he didn't show up for two more seasons after the vision. We knew about the White Walkers, we had no idea they had a leader.

Meanwhile, we DO know that they did know the ending to the books when they wrote it (again, this). So why would they foreshadow something that they weren't going to do when they knew what they were?

Oh yeah. Snow. :pac:

I know hes a D&D invention it still doesnt counter what I've said, and how do we know they knew their ending that far back? are you talking about a rumor you read somewhere? The way the writing has gone, its not supporting that at all.

awec

leggo wrote: »

The Night King doesn't exist in the books. There's a character called 'The Night's King', who was a mystical figure like Bran the Builder, GRRM has as good as confirmed that the Night King we know from the show is D&D's invention. And he didn't exist then. A word hadn't been spoken about him and he didn't show up for two more seasons after the vision. We knew about the White Walkers, we had no idea they had a leader.

Meanwhile, we DO know that they did know the ending to the books when they wrote it (again, this). So why would they foreshadow something that they weren't going to do when they knew what they were?

Oh yeah. Snow. :pac:

I think anyone who now claims that the visions in season 2 were a hint as to what was coming last night is a bull****ter.

A vision of a wintery throne room, deserted and covered in snow, to hint at Kings Landing being destroyed by a dragon?



I don't believe the vision means what you think it means. Too much mental gymnastics required to have it add up. I don't have an explanation for it, and I'm not going to pretend like I have one either, like I'm some sort of genius seeing things that nobody else is willing to see. Maybe the visions were of events that never came to pass? Maybe they didn't really know the ending back then? Maybe it was more symbolic than literal, Dany all alone in the throne room? It definitely wasn't foreshadowing it being burnt to pieces.

leggo

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't know which is more exciting; The show, or seeing who leggo will have a stupid fight with this week.

It's the same people every week man. It's a formula at this stage...

Come in.

Criticise the writing for bits they didn't understand.

Get corrected.

Argue about the meaning of simple concepts like the word "opinion" or the concept of turning left because they've been too patronising to everyone else so can't just say, "Oh yeah, I got mixed up, my bad" when proven wrong.

Watch the next episode.

Start again.

awec

leggo wrote: »

It's the same people every week man. It's a formula at this stage...

Come in.

Criticise the writing for bits they didn't understand.

Get corrected.

Argue about the meaning of simple concepts like the word "opinion" or the concept of turning left because they've been too patronising to everyone else so can't just say, "Oh yeah, I got mixed up, my bad" when proven wrong.

Watch the next episode.

Start again.

You missed the bit where leggo gets annoyed that people don't buy that he's the only person who understands the story.

nix

awec wrote: »

I think anyone who now claims that the visions in season 2 were a hint as to what was coming last night is a bull****ter.

A vision of a wintery throne room, deserted and covered in snow, to hint at Kings Landing being destroyed by a dragon?



I don't believe the vision means what you think it means. Too much mental gymnastics required to have it add up. I don't have an explanation for it, and I'm not going to pretend like I have one either, like I'm some sort of genius seeing things that nobody else is willing to see. Maybe the visions were of events that never came to pass? Maybe they didn't really know the ending back then? Maybe it was more symbolic than literal? It definitely wasn't foreshadowing it being burnt to pieces.

Word!

I'm not saying i do either, but gloom, snow and walking to the North from the throne room, I'm leaning towards night king/Undead/white walkers presence as opposed to Dany and her dragon :pac:

NuMarvel

You're all going to look very foolish when we discover next week that the white stuff in Dany's vision turn out to be the packing chips left over from her moving in boxes.

nix

leggo wrote: »

Argue about the meaning of simple concepts like the word "opinion" or the concept of turning left because they've been too patronising to everyone else so can't just say, "Oh yeah, I got mixed up, my bad" when proven wrong.

Haha you haven't proved anybody wrong though, you just respond with weak arguments ignoring whats been told and then you do a mind flip thinking you have just won the argument.

Lads, it's been debated for years that it was ash, not snow, because there was the dragon shadow flashforward.

I really don't think it's worth discussing. The extreme emphasis on her Dad's madness in book and show means it all makes sense.

peddlelies

Whatever your opinion on the plot, they really captured the sense of destruction and mayhem at ground level brilliantly with all those panned shots and slow motion sequences. I felt that was lacking in the battle vs the White Walkers, it never really portrayed the proper scope of the battle. Someone posted that the random citizen asking Arya did he see his wife was stupid, I'd say it conveyed the sense of shock rather well.

I thought it was a very good episode but this season has felt rushed overall. Can't wait for next week.

leggo

awec wrote: »

I think anyone who now claims that the visions in season 2 were a hint as to what was coming last night is a bull****ter.

A vision of a wintery throne room, deserted and covered in snow, to hint at Kings Landing being destroyed by a dragon?



I don't believe the vision means what you think it means. Too much mental gymnastics required to have it add up. I don't have an explanation for it, and I'm not going to pretend like I have one either, like I'm some sort of genius seeing things that nobody else is willing to see. Maybe the visions were of events that never came to pass? Maybe they didn't really know the ending back then? Maybe it was more symbolic than literal, Dany all alone in the throne room? It definitely wasn't foreshadowing it being burnt to pieces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gulVUWrADCM

Here's what we see. The video is right there if you wanna click play and watch it with me.

It's snowing in winter. Dany enters the Throne room, the roof is blown off (how would the NK do this?), she walks up to the Throne then hears a baby crying, then goes beyond the wall and into the tent that Drogo died in. There she sees Drogo with her child. She speculates that she's dead and doesn't know it. Drogo suggests that they're waiting for her before going to the Night Lands. She considers staying with them but then decides to go back.

We later see in a Bran vision a dragon flying over the destructed Red Keep.

It's just a MASSIVE coincidence that, despite them knowing how it'd all play out because all involved parties have said that GRRM told them, she's since gone beyond the wall and destroyed the Red Keep with a dragon in winter? Okay. I'm the one who's clutching.

vetinari

Thought that was a great episode!
I really disliked the battle of Winterfell and parts of the last episode.
Was watching last night's episode expecting it to be poor enough.
Very pleasantly surprised.

Daenerys's going into full genocidal mode was a bit of a stretch but within the confines of her character arc's possibilities.
There's long been hints of a vicious side to her.
Anyone (myself included) who complained about dragons being easily taken out by scorpions can have no complaints about this episode.
A fast flying dragon should have a big advantage against stationary one shot at a time scorpions.
It actually makes Rhaegal's death easier to understand now that it's shown that Dani can take lay waster to a fleet of ships if she chooses to.

Jaime's and Cersei's end was done quite well. I thought they were going to escape right up to the end.
They also did a good job of selling the idea that Cersei had a chance at winning. It made sense though that having a dragon would be a massive advantage.

nix

leggo wrote: »

We later see in a Bran vision a dragon flying over the destructed Red Keep.

No we dont, see a dragon flying over kings landing, its not a ruin at all, maybe a bitta smoke but nothing to signify dragon destruction.

On close inspection, its actually chimney smoke also

leggo

nix wrote: »

No we dont, see a dragon flying over kings landing, its not a ruin at all, maybe a bitta smoke but nothing to signify dragon destruction.

You're right (see how easy that was???!). We see a repeat shot from Dany's vision of the Throne Room in winter and the dragon flying over KL.

That all meant nothing though, despite it all happening, yeah?

leggo

leggo wrote: »

The Night King doesn't exist in the books. There's a character called 'The Night's King', who was a mystical figure like Bran the Builder, GRRM has as good as confirmed that the Night King we know from the show is D&D's invention. And he didn't exist then. A word hadn't been spoken about him and he didn't show up for two more seasons after the vision. We knew about the White Walkers, we had no idea they had a leader.

Meanwhile, we DO know that they did know the ending to the books when they wrote it (again, this). So why would they foreshadow something that they weren't going to do when they knew what they were?

Oh yeah. Snow. :pac:

Wrong thread dude

nix

leggo wrote: »

You're right (see how easy that was???!). We see a repeat shot from Dany's vision of the Throne Room in winter and the dragon flying over KL.

That all meant nothing though, despite it all happening, yeah?

Lol she was always going to Kings landing though, it wasnt a big revelation :rolleyes:

nix

nix wrote: »

No we dont, see a dragon flying over kings landing, its not a ruin at all, maybe a bitta smoke but nothing to signify dragon destruction.

On close inspection, its actually chimney smoke also

Just made this..



Top is the episode. Bottom is the vision.

Drumpot

Loved Jamie and Tyrion’s farewell and how hard Tyrion tried to save innocent people, possibly the most emotional scene in the entire series for me. Tyrion is probably the most redeemed and likable character left on the show.

Effects

Drumpot wrote: »

Tyrion is probably the most redeemed and likable character left on the show.

Him and Sansa will be ruling together at the end of next week.

Adamocovic

Deleted User wrote: »

Lads, it's been debated for years that it was ash, not snow, because there was the dragon shadow flashforward.

I really don't think it's worth discussing. The extreme emphasis on her Dad's madness in book and show means it all makes sense.

I remember it had been debated, but the script manuscript was gotten a hold of and it said:

She looks up. The roof is missing and snow falls from the sky. [. . .] At the far end of the room, the Iron Throne waits for her, dusted with snow. Her dream made manifest.

Also you can clearly see icicles. Think it was intentional ambiguous though as the Throne Room itself does look like it took fire damage.

Perhaps the snow sitting on the throne she doesn't get to touch represents Jon Snow or perhaps we're looking into it all too much.

I agree probably not worth discussing too much. I don't have any problems with Dany going mad. Would have preferred to see it happen a little less rushed though and more of a built up. Basically the majority of the events that tipped her over the edge happened in last 2-3 episodes, in my preference I'd have liked to see it spread out a bit and gradually becoming more apparent. But won't be getting that now! :P

Drumpot

Drumpot wrote: »

Loved Jamie and Tyrion’s farewell and how hard Tyrion tried to save innocent people, possibly the most emotional scene in the entire series for me. Tyrion is probably the most redeemed and likable character left on the show.

While he could be at this stage, he didn't really have to redeem himself that much. He's never done anything bad.

Jaime had an amazing arc of true redemption, until he didn't.

leggo

nix wrote: »

Lol she was always going to Kings landing though, it wasnt a big revelation :rolleyes:

And on the subject of "George RR Martin outlined his planned ending (this) for them before the show even started so everything they foreshadowed they did with this in mind"...? We'll just ignore that and say they were wrong and it meant nothing (they weren't, they couldn't have been) instead of saying you whiffed* in thinking it was related to the Night King?

*Like a lot of us, myself included, btw.

nix

leggo wrote: »

And on the subject of "George RR Martin outlined his planned ending (this) for them before the show even started so everything they foreshadowed they did with this in mind"...? [/SIZE]

You keep saying this yet there's nothing but rumors and hearsay, what GRRM outlined for them hasn't been divulged and may never be, or wont be until awhile after the show ends and the dust settles.


What we have to go on only is whats happened in the show, you keep trying to fortify your view with rumors and making **** up, like kings landing and the red keep in ruin for example, which the above image counters :rolleyes:

EDIT: Typo's derp

lawlolawl

GRRM pretty much refuses to talk about the ending of the show now in interviews.

Drumpot

Deleted User wrote: »

While he could be at this stage, he didn't really have to redeem himself that much. He's never done anything bad.

Jaime had an amazing arc of true redemption, until he didn't.

That's true, I suppose redeeming in the sense that he finally stood up and became the leader that his intelligence deserved as opposed to just drinking it away in self pity. He sacrificed himself for the people and for his brother.

Jamie's ending was disappointing although I suppose we cant have every character have an awesome sendoff. I suppose the NK put everybodys allegiance on hold and when he was gone there was no common enemy to keep them united!

Ironic that the hound jumped to his death into fire, he really did want his brother dead. Families can be tough .....

leggo

Oh come on. Do you want to sit here, on boards.ie now with everyone reading what you're saying, and be taken seriously in saying that, in the time that they spent with each other as GRRM outlined everything that he had planned for the ending that would serve as their goal to work towards with the show (which we've known about since the show started), that he was just like: "And you can do whatever you want with Danaerys, I don't have much planned there"?

Then they put in a bunch of scenes that just happened to play out exactly what did end up happening...but that's all a coincidence? And those scenes actually meant what you thought they meant all along? With your big reasoning being: because it was snowing?!

There's not admitting you're wrong and there's this. Hilarious. :pac:

is_that_so

Hmm great spectacle, not much else. Such a lazy option to just set fire to everything by a deranged Dany. Amusing too how the genius Euron couldn't get his sights sorted this time. Just as well there's only one left and no more battles to wage CGI war on!

NuMarvel

From this recent interview, it doesn't look like D & D have been clued in on how the books will end. And maybe even GRRM doesn't either!

How much of this season is from discussing the ending with George R.R. Martin?
BENIOFF: [The concern] used to be that the books would spoil the show for people — and luckily it did not, for the most part. Now that the show is ahead of the books, it seems the show could ruin the books for people. So one thing we’ve talked to George about is that we’re not going to tell people what the differences are, so when those books come out people can experience them fresh.
WEISS: It’s kind of nice for him because — obviously through necessity we’ve pulled out ahead — the show has become so different [in recent seasons] that people will have no way knowing from watching what will or won’t appear in the books. And honestly, neither do we.
BENIOFF: We don’t. And George discovers a lot of stuff while he’s writing. I don’t think that final book is written in stone yet — it’s not written on paper yet. As George says, he’s a gardener and he’s waiting to see how those seeds blossom.

I personally always thought that it was a case that GRRM gave the nod to the ending proposed by D & D, as opposed to them writing the ending he'd planned for the book. And just because he was happy with the ending they came up, it doesn't follow that this was the ending he had in mind.

Foxtrol

Liam O wrote: »

The fact that nothing makes any sense is probably a good place to start

Inconsistencies galore with regards time passing, locations, character motivations etc.

Dany literally saves humanity and 2 episodes later is destroying it.

You’re making it out that bringing her army to Winterfell was a noble act to save humanity, when she didn’t want to do it until she realised she had no choice. She either took her troops up to fight at that point, stayed south fighting Cersei and then faced a much larger version of the NK’s army, or went back across the sea, giving up on everything she had worked towards.

Throughout the seasons her character repeatedly did terrible things, but because it was to ‘bad’ people many watching shrugged their shoulders at the acts and what it showed about her character that not only did she have no problem carrying them out but many times appeared to revel in them.

lawlolawl

I loved that the hidden caches of wildfire ended up amounting to 4 or 5 puffs of fart gas.

is_that_so

Foxtrol wrote: »

You’re making it out that bringing her army to Winterfell was a noble act to save humanity, when she didn’t want to do it until she realised she had no choice. She either took her troops up to fight at that point, stayed south fighting Cersei and then faced a much larger version of the NK’s army, or went back across the sea, giving up on everything she had worked towards.

Throughout the seasons her character repeatedly did terrible things, but because it was to ‘bad’ people many watching shrugged their shoulders at the acts and what it showed about her character that not only did she have no problem carrying them out but many times appeared to revel in them.

It does defy belief that she should suddenly flip once she found out that her lover was her nephew and potentially her king.

When I think about the beginning of 'Thrones to the almost end it seems that love was the cause of the many mistakes and triumphs. Even as far back as Leanna Stark giving Jon to Ned for his protection. He was born out of love and given away because of it. Daenerys descent in to madness may have been inevitable but it was a broken heart that caused her to destroy Kings Landing. All of the losses she accumulated and her plea to Jon to not tell. Then Jaime returned to Cersei. I had really thought he would be the one to kill her but really there was no other ending for those two.

I read someplace that their reunion ruined his redemption arc. I disagree because that fails to account for how complicated humans are. It is possible to be decent and to still love that one person who caused so much pain. Funnily enough Cersei for all her evil ways elicited the most sympathy from me. There was just something about her, a kind of brokenness underneath all the awful deeds.

Adamocovic

Foxtrol wrote: »

You’re making it out that bringing her army to Winterfell was a noble act to save humanity, when she didn’t want to do it until she realised she had no choice. She either took her troops up to fight at that point, stayed south fighting Cersei and then faced a much larger version of the NK’s army, or went back across the sea, giving up on everything she had worked towards.

Throughout the seasons her character repeatedly did terrible things, but because it was to ‘bad’ people many watching shrugged their shoulders at the acts and what it showed about her character that not only did she have no problem carrying them out but many times appeared to revel in them.

Ya can't blame people too much for thinking she would resist turning into the mad queen :P

meeeeh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Jaime had an amazing arc of true redemption, until he didn't.

No matter how much he grew away from her, he always returned to her. He stood by her after she blew up the sept. He kept his word of fighting the dead but then he returned to her as he did every time before when she did something despicable. For me it was very much in character.

Redemption is very romantic notion, most people stay who they really are. And Jamie was always a conflicted character. The only thing I didn't like was the love story with Brienne, I thought it was a bit redundant and there more to give Brienne a bit more to do.

is_that_so

meeeeh wrote: »

No matter how much he grew away from her, he always returned to her. He stood by her after she blew up the sept. He kept his word of fighting the dead but then he returned to her as he did every time before when she did something despicable. For me it was very much in character.

Redemption is very romantic notion, most people stay who they really are. And Jamie was always a conflicted character. The only thing I didn't like was the love story with Brienne, I thought it was a bit redundant and there more to give Brienne a bit more to do.

I think there's credit due for that believable thread in the rest of the chaos. Cersei almost gets a nod here for just being human at the end.

badtoro

If Cersei was preggers with Jamie's baby I don't see how anyone might think he'd kill her, despite how bad she was.

RickBlaine

I don’t understand Tyrion’s motivation for telling Dany that Varys was betraying her. On one hand, he is the Hand to the Queen so I understand he needs to keep her informed, but on the other hand, he must have known it would mean Varys’s death. I just think after all they’ve been through, he would have found a way for Varys to survive, even if it meant giving him some warning so he had the opportunity to escape to Winterfell.

Back in season 5, I thought pairing Dany with Tyrion was a great idea. But since then, he’s become more and more of a supporting character rather than the lead role he used to be in the first 4 seasons. And this season especially has dumbed him down a lot. His friendship with Sansa was promising, and if she ends up ruling Westeros he’ll probably be her hand, but the show has pretty much ran out of time to do anything else interesting with him aside from confronting Dany next episode.

Foxtrol

is_that_so wrote: »

It does defy belief that she should suddenly flip once she found out that her lover was her nephew and potentially her king.

In a short period of time - 2 of her ‘children’ - dead, trusted advisor 1 – dead, trusted advisor 2 – betrays her, trusted advisor 3 – repeatedly fails her, best friend – dead, 2 armies that followed her across the sea – nearly all dead, 2 great houses who were going to support her claim – dead, her claim to being the rightful ruler – dead, the people who she grew up hearing wanted a Targaryen on the throne – lies.

But yeah, a sudden flip because of being turned down…

meeeeh

NuMarvel wrote: »

I personally always thought that it was a case that GRRM gave the nod to the ending proposed by D & D, as opposed to them writing the ending he'd planned for the book. And just because he was happy with the ending they came up, it doesn't follow that this was the ending he had in mind.

I think it's more that he can change his mind about the ending he planned and gave to the series writters. First three books are well plotted and coherent but I think that after that Martin lost himself a bit and went to wide. I'm not sure part of the writting block is not because there are too many strands he needs to pull together. I'm pretty confident though that Danny's and Jon's arcs were plotted from the beginning.

nix

leggo wrote: »

Oh come on. Do you want to sit here, on boards.ie now with everyone reading what you're saying, and be taken seriously in saying that, in the time that they spent with each other as GRRM outlined everything that he had planned for the ending that would serve as their goal to work towards with the show (which we've known about since the show started), that he was just like: "And you can do whatever you want with Danaerys, I don't have much planned there"?

Then they put in a bunch of scenes that just happened to play out exactly what did end up happening...but that's all a coincidence? And those scenes actually meant what you thought they meant all along? With your big reasoning being: because it was snowing?!

There's not admitting you're wrong and there's this. Hilarious. :pac:

I'm neither right nor wrong with regards to the vision sequence, im speculating based on what we've seen in the show, you're making **** up and connecting dots that ain't there

leggo

NuMarvel wrote: »

I personally always thought that it was a case that GRRM gave the nod to the ending proposed by D & D, as opposed to them writing the ending he'd planned for the book. And just because he was happy with the ending they came up, it doesn't follow that this was the ending he had in mind.

I agree that the endings will end up completely different, if we ever even get a book ending. But that doesn't change the fact that they met and were clued in on what his original planned ending was, this isn't disputed and all have spoken about this writing conference they had. When he started the ASOIAF Arya, Jon and Tyrion were in a love triangle, his writing style means he tinkers a lot.

is_that_so

Foxtrol wrote: »

In a short period of time - 2 of her ‘children’ - dead, trusted advisor 1 – dead, trusted advisor 2 – betrays her, trusted advisor 3 – repeatedly fails her, best friend – dead, 2 armies that followed her across the sea – nearly all dead, 2 great houses who were going to support her claim – dead, her claim to being the rightful ruler – dead, the people who she grew up hearing wanted a Targaryen on the throne – lies.

But yeah, a sudden flip because of being turned down…

Still not credible that she would turn into a raging psychopath in such a short time. Take on and wipe out her nemesis sure but the rest of the scorched earth was lazy. This is a woman who once believed in freeing slaves, just callously burning innocent people. This behaviour does the overall character they "developed" a great disservice unless the "let's make her mad after all" device was the out for S8.

lawlolawl

Adamocovic wrote: »

Ya can't blame people too much for thinking she would resist turning into the mad queen :P

The writers kind of forgot about the stuff they written.

storker

leggo wrote: »

When he started the ASOIAF Arya, Jon and Tyrion were in a love triangle, his writing style means he tinkers a lot.

Wasn't Arya 10 years old at the start? :eek: