"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

RickBlaine

I'm reading some commentary online saying that this episode has undone 7 seasons of character building with regards to Dany. I really don't think it has. Dany always had a mean streak and a temper. OK, she has never slaughtered innocents en masse before but her problems as a ruler in Essos were relatively minor compared to Westeros. In Essos, she considered her enemies to be slavers and the sons of the Harpy. In Westeros, she considered herself to be at odds with the general Westeros population as a whole. She never experienced that before.

She had always expected to be greeted by the Westerosi as a great liberator, as she was in Slaver's Bay. So the fact that they were completely apathetic towards her must have been a complete shock. Also, remember that when she arrived at Dragonstone, her first impulse was a full scale attack on King's Landing but Tyrion talked her out of it. And the killing of the Tarlys was completely against Tyrion's advise, and I presume the whole reason he was her adviser in the first place was to help her navigate Westerosi politics.

This season has piled so much **** on Dany that she elects to rule by fear. This isn't in the script but my take on that is once she made that decision, she always planned to burn King's Landing to make it an example to the rest of Westeros of what would happen if they disobeyed her. She probably never expected the city to surrender. So when the bells rang, you could see her debating something in her head, definitely some kind of internal conflict. She had planned to burn the city but now there was no justifiable cause to do so, but then she snapped and became the mad queen.

What I will say is that the show hasn't done a good job at this transition because it was far too quick. I think the season needed another couple of episodes to see a more gradual disintegration of Dany's sanity.

Schwiiing

Cleganebowl ended up a draw. Sickened.

SuperRabbit

*ahem*

I haven't seen any episode of Game of Thrones and I felt the need to tell someone because I haven't in a number of days



Ah yeah :cool:

Drumpot

Foxtrol wrote: »

Like most characters in GoT, she isn’t simply good or bad, even after what she did in the last episode. Yes, they built up the noble aspect of her with one hand, but with the other they’ve built a character that struggled with her temper, a god complex, and a vengeful nature throughout the full 8 seasons. We get an excuse to ignore the horrible things that she did to her earlier enemies, because they are framed as bad people to a cartoon level at times, and then given excuse to ignore even worse things she has said that she wanted to do, as her circumstances or advisors stop her before she can.

I’ve no problem with people preferring that they went a different route with her or that we had more time than 1 episode to resolve what she just did, but to quote Ramsey ‘you haven't been paying attention’ if you feel there hasn’t been build up showing her potential to be a ‘mad queen’.

Agreed, not liking a story or character arc does not mean it’s either unlikely or a bad choice, in many cases it’s just a subjective personal opinion. I’ve noticed this a lot in movies and shows where people really lack insight when it comes to human behavior. Insert beloved character “wouldn’t do that or be so different” ... Somebody gave a very good synopsis on Jamie and compared them to an addict which I thought was a very good explanation.

Exclamation Marc

Schwiiing wrote: »

Cleganebowl ended up a draw. Sickened.

Away goal win for The Hound.

Optimalprimerib

I don't care, I effing loved it. It was harrowing to watch and completely unhinged. I'm happy the whole Daenerys snow love fest is done with too.

lawlolawl

Someone needs to do a version of the "it was me all along austin!" meme with Dany.

Essien

Not for the first time this season I'll say it was an incredibly entertaining episode even if, on reflection, a lot of stuff made little sense.

I didn't really get Cleganebowl (why is it even called that...?). The hound wants to get revenge on his brother because he put his face in a fire. The mountain is a bit of prick and now a semi-zombie. Does that cover their motivations?

Feisar

Arya to kill Danny in the finale.

average hero

Wow. A great episode for me. Was probably the best in the season so far.

Personally I really preferred this battle and set piece to the white walker story arc. I always felt that the Lannisters versus the others, with all of the political maneuvering, scheming and whispers going on was much more compelling than the white walkers etc. I understand some people won't feel that way but that's my opinion!

Loved the amount of main characters deaths in it and also the 'snapping' of Dani. Emilia Clarke plays crazy Dani way better than previous Dani in my opinion.

Interestingly, I saw some people praise how Cersei went out. I am a bit disappointed to be honest. I feel that she should have died at the hands of someone rather than the roof. If the night king could die from Arya, surely Cersei could have been? Also I didn't like how she emotionally crumbled in that episode. This woman stared down the undead brought to her from beyond the wall, decided not to go fight them, schemed her way out of the 'light of the 7' situation with the dragonfire explosion and did loads more besides. I don't have a problem with her showing emotion when she knows it's over, but I think the hysterical breaking down betrays the character a little. She is one of the toughest characters in the series. Yes, I am a Cersei fan haha.

Great episode.

Gwynplaine

On second watch here now. Watched it this morning at 6am. Loved it. Some brilliant scenes.
My favourite character from the whole thing is now gone. I believe he now eating a snack box.

paw patrol

i thoight visually it was a great episode. story was it was all over the place.

They are trying to rush this season...

random thoughts:

last week the Quburn's arrow could lash the dragons out of it , this week with 100's of them they couldn't lay a scratch . And the single dragon just wrecked and entire city.
The Golden company...like WTF...I hope the lannisters get a refund on that bag of sh1te.
Tyrion has turned into a fool
Cersai (like the night kings) dies ..just like that ...you'd wonder what the 8 seasons of fuss was over.

Funny after all the character development the hound is the most honorable of them all.

I really like GOT but this season is meh.

Arghus

The Lanisters being stopped in their tracks by a dead end and then perishing as the foundations collapse is a good metaphor for the state of the show as it is now.

Assetbacked

Assetbacked wrote: »

Well this can be updated. Finally, the tide is turning against her and it is funny to see so much shock and hysteria as if she could just waltz into King's Landing with her dragons to seize the iron throne.

Jaime and Cersei have a story to resolve and Danys and the Starks also have something to resolve. This is how I see it being split. Danys nor the Starks will have to kill Cersei who will die but whoever emerges from the Stark/Danys conflict will, without having to kill Cersei, sit on the iron throne.

In terms of what happens then, we have Arya disappearing again into the wilderness so it would seem that potentially she will emerge to protect Jon from Danys and kill her. Jaime will kill Cersei and his unborn child to redeem himself from everything that has happened. Jaime and Tyrian are now on Bronn's hit list.

As for Bran, we don't know what he told Sansa and Arya, we just assume we know. I don't think it was just what we thought it was. That should've been a significant event, Arya and Sansa finding out that information as well as their reactions but we did not get to see it. Arya then wandered off with the hound. There is definitely more to that then we might think.

Well, an update to this from last week's episode. I'm still curious what Bran said to Arya and Sansa.

It does appear that Arya is likely to kill Danys though who has succumbed to her single sighted, ruthless vision. The way she has talked of being on the iron throne is not the talk of a ruler. She was feared because of her dragons but she had not the qualities of a leader, more like an entitled, self-righteous warped claim.

Tyrian and Jon cannot face Danys and Greyworm again without killing each other so I don't know in what situation they will face each other again. Also, Bran and Sansa were absent from the entire episode so need to be brought in again to play apart. But I think it is not a good message to have dragons do all your work and get you to the top without having earned it and the show is rather predictable the final series so Danys will not survive til the end.

lawlolawl

Master schemer and plotter Cersei Lannister standing on a balcony simpering like an idiot whilst her entire military might is destroyed by one huffy young one on a dragon was kinda lame.


It's been bothering me more throughout the day. I was expecting some kind of twist in the tale but, nope, she nuked em all.

Drumpot

Be mad if Dani killed everybody who knew about Jons claim and then Varys letter ends up with somebody who can challange her ?! I think that letter could be important because they made a point to show him writing it.

namloc1980

Euron showing up at that exact moment on that exact beach was bloody stupid. Really stupid. Added nothing to the episode whatsoever as Jaime was going to die in the dungeon with Cersei anyway. Ridiculous.

namloc1980

Drumpot wrote: »

Be mad if Dani killed everybody who knew about Jons claim and then Varys letter ends up with somebody who can challange her ?! I think that letter could be important because they made a point to show him writing it.

Did he not burn it? Or was that something else.

Tikki Wang Wang

Where can you start with how bad this is? How awful this season it?

Captain Red Beard

lawlolawl wrote: »

Master schemer and plotter Cersei Lannister standing on a balcony simpering like an idiot whilst her entire military might is destroyed by one huffy young one on a dragon was kinda lame.


It's been bothering me more throughout the day. I was expecting some kind of twist in the tale but, nope, she nuked em all.

I thought it was pretty good, she realises her whole existence was pointless. Same with her anonymous death.

TheValeyard

Well, I think she has topped Joffrey as most insane monster.

Drumpot

namloc1980 wrote: »

Did he not burn it? Or was that something else.

I think he was but some of it could be left, it just feels like a lot of time was given to that scene that could of been trimmed to just show him being taken into custody.

Arghus

It was a spectacular episode of television to look at, but Dany's sudden heel turn wasn't the least bit earned, nor was Cersei's sudden disintegration into a simpering fool and her and Jaime's death were so throwaway to be practically insulting. A lot of the internal logic went out the window in this episode - it was a total rush job: under-cooked and over-stuffed. I know the show has been in decline for the last few seasons, but I'm genuinely gutted that this is the way it's looking like it's going to go out: spectacular, but totally unsatisfying illogical bollocks.

lawlolawl

namloc1980 wrote: »

Euron showing up at that exact moment on that exact beach was bloody stupid. Really stupid. Added nothing to the episode whatsoever as Jaime was going to die in the dungeon with Cersei anyway. Ridiculous.

The writers had to mash their action figures together again.

ctrl-alt-delete

Drumpot wrote: »

I think he was but some of it could be left, it just feels like a lot of time was given to that scene that could of been trimmed to just show him being taken into custody.

I wonder what the significance was of him removing his rings?

TheValeyard

Feisar wrote: »

Arya to kill Danny in the finale.

I'm hoping she does.

Also, Sansa and the Onion night for the win.

namloc1980

Wish the Night King could have beaten them all now at this stage.

TheValeyard

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

I wonder what the significance was of him removing his rings?

Payment for delivery of the letter? Greater the risk, greater the reward?

Drumpot

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

I wonder what the significance was of him removing his rings?

Unless it’s a sort of dignified ending? Did he leave the rings with the burnt letter?

I just thought that maybe he started to burn the letter to make it look like not worth investigating? And but then put the lid quite quickly so it could eerily be still there. Maybe it’s nothing but giving a long time character a final scene on his own!

lawlolawl

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

I wonder what the significance was of him removing his rings?

It'll never be referenced again because the show is dumb as **** now.

TerrorFirmer

Overall an OK episode. Visually, very good. Definitely some incredible scenes, and the general backdrop/atmosphere of Dany torching Kings Landing was handled extremely well.

Putting aside the fact that the show badly needed a few more episodes to properly flesh out the direction the story has gone....

Golden Company....OK. Blink and you'll miss them. The immediate decimation single-handedly of the Lannister forces, Golden Company, and Iron Fleet felt way too cheap. I don't mind a one sided struggle at all and it makes sense in the context, but.....I mean the Dothraki and Drogon annihilated the Lannisters at Kings Road, but that had a way better flow and sense of hopeless, doomed one-sided battle, rather than "We'll just quickly wrap this all up and butcher them all in 30 seconds".

Cleganebowl....disappointing (though I laughed out loud at the utter schlocky death of Qyburn). Would've prefered something much more grounded, it almost felt like I was watching a scene from the Star Wars prequels.

Cersei's end was OK to me. A bit sad, even, despite her downfall being (like everything else) far too rushed which leaves it feeling empty. Jamies end is perfectly fitting too, in theory. It doesn't undo his 'redemption' arc either in my view, his coming back to Cersei says nothing other than his undying love for her. If you go back and watch the scene in S4 where Cersei tells Tywin about her and Jamie; and then later when she goes to him....it's impossible not to be OK with him gravitating back to her in the end.

I say in theory because the last season or two have been very much 'off', and as a result I've realised I've lost emotional attachment to pretty much every character. So it was more a case of "Ah right. Cersei and Jaime are dead. Grand so". A few seasons ago I'd be almost in tears if either died, as both were my favourite characters. I find now I don't really care as much.

Anyway, Euron. Swims a few KM after his fleet gets torched and decides to fight Jaime to the death mere seconds after clambouring out of the water. Utterly daft. Other stuff in the episode annoyed me a little more, but this was by far the stupidest "we've got to wrap this character up somehow" bit going.

Why couldn't they just have left Euron to be killed by Dany. Let Jaime incur his wounds fighting the Kingsguard who refuse to let him pass to see Cersei.

Anyway, it was a grand episode. Some great stuff, some bad stuff. How rushed this season has been has dealt an absolute hammer blow to the emotional impact of this episode though for me personally. E1-3 and E4-6 should have been the basis for S8 and S9 respectively, badly needed.

Sonics2k

Honestly one of my favourite episodes.

Those surprised by Dany going mental and killing people (albeit more than even I expected) really need to go back and pay attention. Dany has always had a temper and is prone to excess. Throughout the seasons we've seen her become more and more extreme in her attitudes. Gone are the days of her being forgiving.

TheValeyard

Dragon Queens be cray cray

scudzilla

This season, IMO, is by far the weakest, i'm useless at predicting things but have got most of this nailed on, and how rushed does it all seem

TheValeyard

scudzilla wrote: »

This season, IMO, is by far the weakest, i'm useless at predicting things but have got most of this nailed on, and how rushed does it all seem

I would agree about it getting rushed. Could easily do this over another season

Notorious

Quite a disappointing episode IMHO. Character arcs are being tied up far too quickly.

• Since her aspirations to rule became clear, Daenerys has been warning us that she wouldn't be "the Queen of ashes". I think the seasons poor writing is blatantly evident here in how she's transitioned from being a little harsh with some of her punishments, to burning down an entire city and murdering innocents. A city of people who didn't chose to be ruled by Cersei or the Lannisters. Yes we could see how she didn't appear to be a competent ruler, and she lacked an advisor - but I don't believe she'd suddenly go postal. I expected her to fly towards the Red Keep.
  
• Grey Worm, a soldier who has been brought up void feelings has lead his troops to commit war crimes. I don't think the death of Missandei would unhinge his character enough to provoke his murder of a soldier who has dropped his sword and surrendered.
  
• Euron emerging from the water as Jamie crossed the beach was ridiculous. Then Euron easily overpowers Jamie after swimming over 20km from his boat to the shore. Only for Jamie to survive and then die in the collapse of the Keep.
  
• Last week Daenerys' dragon was killed after a surprise attack by a fleet of ships (again, ridiculous). Her moving dragon was hit with what appeared to be the first shot of a bolt at a distance. This week all of the scorpions on the Golden Companies ships didn't even injure the last dragon, and all the soldiers on the wall barely let a shot off. Very convenient.

It was always going to be hard to finish Game of Thrones. But for characters like Jamie and Cersei who have been developed across seasons, to die in a collapsing building? Surely we deserve a more fitting ending? I'm very disappointed with the progression of the show since Season 7, but I thought they'd at least give us a good ending.

Drumpot

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Cleganebowl....disappointing (though I laughed out loud at the utter schlocky death of Qyburn). Would've prefered something much more grounded, it almost felt like I was watching a scene from the Star Wars prequels.

Interesting you should I say that because when the camera panned to Dani who had won the war while the bells where ringing it reminded me of when Anakin was in the Jedi temple agonizing over whether he should go and save Palpatine. That moment when a character is about to go full retard.

Anakin was crying cause he knew he had to save Palpatine so he could save Padme. Dani was desperate for plain old revenge, she wanted to burn the city and was disgusted that she wasn’t going to get her chance legitimately so she made it happen!!!

Drumpot

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Dragon Queens be cray cray

They really love their nephews though....

namloc1980

WTF is Jon going to do about all those Northern soldiers who went on a killing spree of innocent people? Unsullied turned into war criminals also.

Scott Tenorman

I’ve moaned a lot about this season but I really enjoyed that.

Wasn’t expecting Dany to go full Mad Queen like that

walshb

This blonde lass is about as charismatic as a scabby toenail..

TheValeyard

Is there even a throne room left for the Queen of Ashes?

J. Marston

namloc1980 wrote: »

WTF is Jon going to do about all those Northern soldiers who went on a killing spree of innocent people? Unsullied turned into war criminals also.

"On second thoughts Tormund, can I come too?"

Ghost snarls.

The closest thing which came to a distracting contrivance for me in this episode was Euron arriving at that cove to meet Jamie. But...why was Jamie there in the first place? Because there was a passage way up to the Red Keep right there. It's not outside the realms of possibility to think that Euron might be there for that same purpose. It's not as if it were just any random beach in KL Jamie and Euron met at, and it's not like Euron just washed up on it unwillingly.

Euron was an abomination in the show overall, but his scenes in this week's episode are nowhere near the worst of his story for me. From the writers POV, sure he stumbled onto that beach to have a showdown with Jamie, but the show did give me enough to make me believe that they crossed paths on their way back to Cersei. We know Jamie was going to save her, but I reckon from the few words Euron said to Jamie that Euron was on his way to steal what he could and sail off.

expectationlost

namloc1980 wrote: »

Euron showing up at that exact moment on that exact beach was bloody stupid. Really stupid. Added nothing to the episode whatsoever as Jaime was going to die in the dungeon with Cersei anyway. Ridiculous.

it was the beach with access to the red keep

walshb

Cersei...all we need is one good shot...

Who writes this garbage?!

OneOfThem Stumbled

Deleted User wrote: »

Euron was an abomination in the show overall

He will always be fondly remembered for killing all the sand snakes though.

Dave0301

walshb wrote: »

Cersei...all we need is one good shot...

Who writes this garbage?!

Not GRRM anyway :pac:

Foxtrol

Notorious wrote: »

Quite a disappointing episode IMHO. Character arcs are being tied up far too quickly.

• Since her aspirations to rule became clear, Daenerys has been warning us that she wouldn't be "the Queen of ashes". I think the seasons poor writing is blatantly evident here in how she's transitioned from being a little harsh with some of her punishments, to burning down an entire city and murdering innocents. A city of people who didn't chose to be ruled by Cersei or the Lannisters. Yes we could see how she didn't appear to be a competent ruler, and she lacked an advisor - but I don't believe she'd suddenly go postal. I expected her to fly towards the Red Keep.

A little harsh in her punishments is quite the understatement there. She has been threatening and itching to burn down cities since her dragons were born, she was just talked out of it each time.

The people also didn’t choose her, which she brought up numerous times. If you aren’t with her you’re against her.

[*]Grey Worm, a soldier who has been brought up void feelings has lead his troops to commit war crimes. I don't think the death of Missandei would unhinge his character enough to provoke his murder of a soldier who has dropped his sword and surrendered.

War crimes??? That is historical standard sacking of a city and they were following their Queen. The Unsullied kill babies if their master tells them, killing a few soldiers is nothing.

[*]Euron emerging from the water as Jamie crossed the beach was ridiculous. Then Euron easily overpowers Jamie after swimming over 20km from his boat to the shore. Only for Jamie to survive and then die in the collapse of the Keep.

Agreed, they needed to stop trying to make Euron a thing.

[*]Last week Daenerys' dragon was killed after a surprise attack by a fleet of ships (again, ridiculous). Her moving dragon was hit with what appeared to be the first shot of a bolt at a distance. This week all of the scorpions on the Golden Companies ships didn't even injure the last dragon, and all the soldiers on the wall barely let a shot off. Very convenient.

Each dragon was taken out by surprise shots. Ignoring the leap you have to take for them not to see Euron previously, they had all the time to prepare a shot and hit it while it is far harder when they're being surprised. This is what everyone was telling Cersei for the last 2 seasons but she believed in that one shot making it through.

It was always going to be hard to finish Game of Thrones. But for characters like Jamie and Cersei who have been developed across seasons, to die in a collapsing building? Surely we deserve a more fitting ending? I'm very disappointed with the progression of the show since Season 7, but I thought they'd at least give us a good ending.

If GoT is somewhat constant with anything, you rarely get what you deserve. After the pre-War of Winterfell episode, I feared they were going full standard TV show and pander to the viewers with everything. It’s far from perfect but I’m happy it looks like they’ve avoided that.