"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

is_that_so

Sonics2k wrote: »

Honestly one of my favourite episodes.

Those surprised by Dany going mental and killing people (albeit more than even I expected) really need to go back and pay attention. Dany has always had a temper and is prone to excess. Throughout the seasons we've seen her become more and more extreme in her attitudes. Gone are the days of her being forgiving.

People have been watching. She had an arc which allowed her to develop to a point of some complexity. I think people expected a lot more actual plot development to lead up to it rather than what the hell let's have her go berserk in the second last episode.

OneOfThem Stumbled

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

He will always be fondly remembered for killing all the sand snakes though.

There was that of course - One abomination destroys another.

Here's to Euron so - What is dead may never die

Sonics2k

Right, proper follow up.

I'm not happy they decided to do 6 episodes instead of 10. I'm enjoying the season, but it all feels rushed.

Cersei's downfall made sense to me. For years she's simply schemed her way through things, with a massive amount of false bravado. When she finally see's Dany in action, she -still- thinks she'll be fine. Even after her army abandons her she carries on this belief. It's only when the Red Keep is literally falling down she accepts it.

Tyrions betrayal of Lord Varys surprised me. What surprised me more was Jon being so okay with the punishment.

The scene with Ayra escaping Kings Landing was intense, incredibly well done and very dizzying.

Dany going mental. Saw that coming years ago, it was the only way it would go. Crazy Dragon lady was always going to be a thing

namloc1980

What was the story with Arya and the horse at the end?

is_that_so

Foxtrol wrote: »

If GoT is somewhat constant with anything, you rarely get what you deserve. After the pre-War of Winterfell episode, I feared they were going full standard TV show and pander to the viewers with everything. It’s far from perfect but I’m happy it looks like they’ve avoided that.

It's really not what viewers deserve nor their disappointment at plotlines not going how they expected it's disappointment the show descended into some very bad writing and galloped via a whole lot of shallow spectacle to an ending that may well define it.

is_that_so

namloc1980 wrote: »

What was the story with Arya and the horse at the end?

Pixie dust! Symbolic tosh!:rolleyes:

Paddy Cow

Notorious wrote: »

Grey Worm, a soldier who has been brought up void feelings has lead his troops to commit war crimes. I don't think the death of Missandei would unhinge his character enough to provoke his murder of a soldier who has dropped his sword and surrendered.

Grey Worm was devoid of feelings until he fell in love with Missandei. As far back as season 5 he was saying he was afraid he wouldn't see her again. In season 7 he said she was his weakness. I can understand him cracking when she was murdered. She was the only good and real thing in his life. Grey Worm would've let the soldiers go. It was only when Dany ignored the peace bells that she was basically giving the go ahead to Grey Worm.

meeeeh

namloc1980 wrote: »

WTF is Jon going to do about all those Northern soldiers who went on a killing spree of innocent people? Unsullied turned into war criminals also.

Do you think solders don't become dehumanized in war if they are fighting for the 'good' side?

Bonzo Delaney

namloc1980 wrote: »

What was the story with Arya and the horse at the end?

Death rides a pale horse
It's mentioned in the bible somewhere.
Anyhoo surely Jon will retreat to the north live a peaceful life and let the mad dragon lady rule her ruins.

How Soon Is Now

So instead of repeating whats already been said and mentioning what i liked or didn't like about that episode im gonna jump in here with.......


Who wants to do me the honor of explaining wtf they done or tried to do with Arya Stark in that episode!!??

is_that_so

meeeeh wrote: »

Do you think solders don't become dehumanized in war if they are fighting for the 'good' side?

Well it only took them a few minutes to suddenly lose it but there was quite a bit of that going on in this episode.

is_that_so

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

So instead of repeating whats already been said and mentioning what i liked or didn't like about that episode im gonna jump in here with.......


Who wants to do me the honor of explaining wtf they done or tried to do with Arya Stark in that episode!!??

She saw the light and became that angsty teen who went away.

Sonics2k

namloc1980 wrote: »

What was the story with Arya and the horse at the end?

The theory is that Bran was warging into the horse to get her out.

razorblunt

Tyrion grasses on Varys for treason. Fine.
Tyrion commits treason you choice the very next day.

I thought for a second Jon Snow was going to battle Grey Worm and I was all for the ball less one to get cut down.

How Soon Is Now

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

So instead of repeating whats already been said and mentioning what i liked or didn't like about that episode im gonna jump in here with.......


Who wants to do me the honor of explaining wtf they done or tried to do with Arya Stark in that episode!!??

Don't think about it.. just enjoy the spectacle..

Sonics2k

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

So instead of repeating whats already been said and mentioning what i liked or didn't like about that episode im gonna jump in here with.......


Who wants to do me the honor of explaining wtf they done or tried to do with Arya Stark in that episode!!??

It's simple. Arya planned on killing Cersei before the war could start. When the Red Keep was getting destroyed, the Hound told her it was time to leave. There was nothing she could do.

She left, she had to try and survive the destruction.

Paddy Cow

namloc1980 wrote: »

WTF is Jon going to do about all those Northern soldiers who went on a killing spree of innocent people? Unsullied turned into war criminals also.

In the after show discussion, they were saying that they wanted to show that not everything is black and white and it's not a case of the Lannister soldiers bad and the Northerners good. I can appreciate that but when someone on a dragon is burning the city around you, it doesn't seem the appropriate time to start getting rapey.

Bonzo Delaney

is_that_so wrote: »

Well it only took them a few minutes to suddenly lose it but there was quite a bit of that going on in this episode.

I think it was more the confusion of what was happening their queen was off burning the city and all inside so classic case of monkey sees monkey does and the city's ripe for a pillaging. While Jon is trying to pull them back

Paddy Cow

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

So instead of repeating whats already been said and mentioning what i liked or didn't like about that episode im gonna jump in here with.......


Who wants to do me the honor of explaining wtf they done or tried to do with Arya Stark in that episode!!??

She wanted to cross Cersei off her list but with the Keep crumbling the Hound convinced her that it was better to live, than die seeking revenge.

is_that_so

Paddy Cow wrote: »

In the after show discussion, they were saying that they wanted to show that not everything is black and white and it's not a case of the Lannister soldiers bad and the Northerners good. I can appreciate that but when someone on a dragon is burning the city around you, it doesn't seem the appropriate time to start getting rapey.

It struck me as a way to give the soldiers other things to do and Jon the honourable to gut some. Pretty clumsy effort at such commentary in the middle of a battle.

kerplun k

Ah jaysus lads. khaleesi is off her rocker. She broke that f*^king wheel alright.

kowloon

biggebruv

I have to say it’s interesting reading People’s different views on Danny’s state of mind and about war etc

Suppose that’s better than a hero’s saves the day, happily ever after and the end
I wanna sit down in about 2 weeks time and binge this season

bnt

OptimusTractor wrote: »

Was expecting Arya to die given that her escape was being mirrored by The Hound's fighting.

Was a tad convenient almost comical that the GC commander's horse survived the ensuing slaughter to arrive at just the right time.

There is another possible interpretation of that scene: Arya dies, and that was what she saw: her personal version of "walking towards the light".

biggebruv

bnt wrote: »

There is another possible interpretation of that scene: Arya dies, and that was what she saw: her personal version of "walking towards the light".

I was ready for Arya to die in that part I think it would have fit GOT the savior of mankind gets trampled on and dies just like nothing

CiarraiAbu2

Where to all these unsullied come out of, for guys with no balls they seem to breed like rabbits.

namloc1980

meeeeh wrote: »

Do you think solders don't become dehumanized in war if they are fighting for the 'good' side?

Took them about 3 minutes to become dehumanised and a bit rapey and slaughtering women and children. It was all a bit bizarre to be honest.

is_that_so

biggebruv wrote: »

I have to say it’s interesting reading People’s different views on Danny’s state of mind and about war etc

Suppose that’s better than a hero’s saves the day, happily ever after and the end
I wanna sit down in about 2 weeks time and binge this season

No heroes in this but there are concerns that after 8 seasons it may turn out to be just about a crazy dragon woman. That's a bad fairy tale!

ctrl-alt-delete

I might have missed it, but where did Tyrion go to?

is_that_so

biggebruv wrote: »

I was ready for Arya to die in that part I think it would have fit GOT the savior of mankind gets trampled on and dies just like nothing

And then she gets up to walk towards the horse and turns to look back to her lifeless body.

Penn

namloc1980 wrote: »

Took them about 3 minutes to become dehumanised and a bit rapey and slaughtering women and children. It was all a bit bizarre to be honest.

They would have been the army who survived winter fell, then got marched down to Kings landing. Probably been training, fighting and then marching for over a month without proper rest. That'd help dehumanise them.

is_that_so

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

I might have missed it, but where did Tyrion go to?

Stood outside and watched.

Turtwig

Really find it surprising how 'shocked' people are with Dany's moment. She literally burned anyone that disagreed with her. No way every slaver and enemy she fought was 100% evil? I think one thing the shows did rather well was serve to illustrate how easily we overlook awful acts if they are in our own interests or aligned to own views of morality. The slavers are bad so anything bad that happens to them is deserved.

Favourite part of this episode was how if this is the only episode of Game of Thrones you watched you wouldn't know that the Lannisters and Cersei were 'bad' guys. The Lannisters guards were sacrificing themselves to protect civilians of the city.

Side note: found it really interesting the producers referred it to the Dresden Bombings. For all the feminst liberal stuff the show get's accused of, it'll be amazing if they don't get taken to task for the implied position they took on Dresden. That was a brave, and in my opinion, very fitting reference to make.

lawlolawl

Arya fell in love with the horse because it had gorgeous hair.


She's gone from the show now because she is married to the horse.

is_that_so

Penn wrote: »

They would have been the army who survived winter fell, then got marched down to Kings landing. Probably been training, fighting and then marching for over a month without proper rest. That'd help dehumanise them.

Wasted training so as they only did their job for about 2 minutes and ignored honest Jon's entreaties.

el Fenomeno

Great episode, but very disappointed by Cersei's apparent demise.

The Night King's death was a let down, but a lot of people were making the (valid) point that Cersei was the true bad guy here. And her death felt even more anti-climatic, to be given her moment with Jamie and crushes by some rubble off-screen.

I know it'll be argued now that Dany is the bad guy, but that was really only introduced in this episode (ignoring foreshadowing).

We basically had 7 seasons of people waiting for the comeuppance for the Night King and Cersei and they've been pretty unrewarding and underwhelming IMO.

Rezident

nix wrote: »

I enjoyed it, mainly because literally everything got burned to the ground. But it was all completely silly tbh

It was a pretty solid episode, up until the bells rang. She attacked with pretty much surgical precision, knocking out all major defenses and opening the way for her infantry. Then just says "**** it" and kills everybody... LOL

Dany has always done what was right or what she had to do, but never ever, not once was it at the cost of innocent life for 7+ seasons. And In the space of two episodes she puts Darth Vader to shame and single handedly commits genocide on her own people and civilians of kings landing :pac:

Sam's brother was clearly innocent. They have been telegraphing the mad queen thing for a long time, I am amazed anyone is surprised by it. I loved it, glad they did not chicken out. She's a Targaryen FFS!

lawlolawl

is_that_so wrote: »

Wasted training so as they only did their job for about 2 minutes and ignored honest Jon's entreaties.

Jon: "no, stop!"


/impales a guy on his sword


Jon: "why are you doing this?!?!"


/slices a guys head clean in two


Jon: "i'm so sick of these Games Of Thrones!"


/does a wicked cool spin-slice and beheads 3 guys at once

namloc1980

Penn wrote: »

They would have been the army who survived winter fell, then got marched down to Kings landing. Probably been training, fighting and then marching for over a month without proper rest. That'd help dehumanise them.

What? They entered King's Landing and fought Lannisters. Grand. Then Greyworm spears a soldier who dropped his sword and the Northerners decide..."feck it lets start raping and pillaging".

ctrl-alt-delete

is_that_so wrote: »

Stood outside and watched.

Seems he did, last I remember was him watching for the bells, then watching Danaerys fly off again. Looked like he was still outside at that point.

Turtwig

Turtwig wrote: »

Side note: found it really interesting the producers referred it to the Dresden Bombings. For all the feminst liberal stuff the show get's accused of, it'll be amazing if they don't get taken to task for the implied position they took on Dresden. That was a brave, and in my opinion, very fitting reference to make.

They could equally have given a nod to the Vietnam war with Dany destroying the city in order to "save" it. Maybe we are looking too deeply into it!

is_that_so

lawlolawl wrote: »

Jon: "no, stop!"


/impales a guy on his sword


Jon: "why are you doing this this?!?!"


/slices a guys head clean in two


Jon: "i'm so sick of these Games Of Thrones!"


/does a wicked cool spin-slice and beheads 3 guys at once

That's actually better dialogue!

meeeeh

namloc1980 wrote: »

Took them about 3 minutes to become dehumanised and a bit rapey and slaughtering women and children. It was all a bit bizarre to be honest.

That wasn't the first battle they were in. Most would have years of war behind them.

Weepsie

el Fenomeno wrote: »

I know it'll be argued now that Dany is the bad guy, but that was really only introduced in this episode (ignoring foreshadowing).

.

Really? Shes ruled through fear from the moment she got power. Always apparent she wouldn't be a good guy. She's a bloody awful actress though which doesn't help imo.


Anywho, this episode is appallingly edited. It's like one of those middle of the road Netflix thrillers that likes to think it's super smart and tense. Like 6 second cuts, camera everywhere, super slo-mo, music for effect, little to any meaningful dialogue. It's all a bit forced

is_that_so

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

Seems he did, last I remember was him watching for the bells, then watching Danaerys fly off again. Looked like he was still outside at that point.

Think there's a bit in the finale trailer that shows him walking through the gate.

~Rebel~

Ok. So. Daenerys.

I've read through all the comments, and the biggest justification for her switch is that the signs were there all along, she was already violent etc.

That's true - this clearly has been the ultimate ending planned. There were plenty of signs hinting towards it. That's grand.

But the jump between where she was not long ago, and where she switched to last night was too much, too soon. It needed to be earned within her character, but it wasn't. It needed a full extra season's worth of dedicated character progression.

Looking at it from a blunt plot point of view, people point to; "she suffered great loss, and snapped", but just think about the practicalities of that from an emotional point of view: What would it take you to go outside and murder a bunch of random strangers? That's the leap we're talking about. Not just having a mental breakdown, not just having a huge mood swing, or a self destructive episode, but actually becoming a murderous psychopath on a vast scale.

This was a woman who we've seen go through incredible trauma - bred to be sold by her brother, then losing her husband, and her unborn baby. Her entire story and character from that point has been based around stopping this sort of thing happening to innocents. She's had incredibly brutal and violent instincts since then, but always always in service of the greater good.

Her switching to a psycho wasn't the disaster, that switch is a really interesting choice for the story viewed in the wider context - but them not providing enough of the in-between character changes required to be in any way even remotely realistic and earned was pure laziness/rushed storytelling. We needed to see her start to show malice and violence on a smaller scale towards generally innocent people without a clear greater goal at the heart of her actions. Like, for instance if Dickon Tarly had bent the knee as his Dad wished, and she burned him anyway saying the whole family were traitors, that would have been a great little character builder. But they didn't do that. Or anything like that.

They did all the broad thematic setup, and the foreshadowing - but not the nuts and bolts character change and development required for such a monumental change in personality and behaviour. In short order, they turned her from a ruthless but pragmatic Roose Bolton into full on crazy Ramsey Bolton.

storker

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

I wonder what the significance was of him removing his rings?

Maybe he'd seen Donnie Brasco.

Weepsie

Don't forgot the targaryens had a history of going mad and just being tyrants. Jon is presumably saves by his Stark blood

Weepsie

~Rebel~ wrote: »

But the jump between where she was not long ago, and where she switched to last night was too much, too soon. It needed to be earned within her character, but it wasn't. It needed a full extra season's worth of dedicated character progression.

Wouldn't have made a difference. She's been (little fingers scene chewing aside) the worst acted character in it, especially for such a main role.

storker

namloc1980 wrote: »

WTF is Jon going to do about all those Northern soldiers who went on a killing spree of innocent people? Unsullied turned into war criminals also.

I doubt that the idea of a "war crime" exists in Westeros.