Time to create our own Political Party

Nobelium

Pherekydes wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Michael Noonan, Bertie Ahern et al are amongst the smartest and most capable people in the country?

they are deplorable, but given the standards, ethics and conduct of Irish politicians why would an honest educated person go into Irish politics now ? - they wouldn't stand a chance.

lalababa

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Broadband to a few homes?

People just dismiss anything theses days to have a pop at the government.

Populist nonsense.

I live in the area not supported by Broadband, my whole family lives in an area not supported by broadband.

My wife family lives in area not supported by BB....based in West, North West, centre and east of Ireland. Good coverage would you say?

3 billion is not a solution.

We have all invested in a SIM from different mobile companies. I acquired osme equipement from overseas. Less than 150 euro for each house. All of us now have BB, I have 3 TV's streaming at the minute....I work from home 3-4 days a week. My brother and wife work from home daily. All of us using online application which require decent BB

So what is nonsense?

Yea, like correct me if I'm wrong but....the big push seems to be the moaning of rural businesses and remote workers and the kind of bandwagon of polictian s supporting this 'we gotta have broadband' mantra....BUT (I'm no techie) can't you get reasonably good internet speeds easily enough with a satellite dish or some other low cost solution without tearing up the roads or stringing it along the poles????

The Rape of Lucretia

Igotadose wrote: »

I live in West Kerry and loath the healy-rae's. However, longer-term residents adore them. Not for their right-wing pro-Catholic Church politics.

Because if you phone them, they ring you back. If your road needs a repair and the county council can't get to it, you call Michael Healy-Rae's office, and on his way to work in a few days, he phones you from the car and dispatches an underling to deal with it.

There are way too many of these Healy-Raes in politics, they're all over the county council and so on, but you have to respect how they do their jobs. They're hands-on, good or bad. They should just stfu about climate, Trump, religion, etc. and keep the roads repaired, the bridges replaced, fiber optic run out to rural areas, etc.

This is the problem though. They dont do their jobs. They are not part of a leadership, reform, development, and governance of the country. They are two bit local fixers. If people are happy to elect their like (and they are only the high profile epitome of the syndrome - many others in the Dail are little different), then they cannot complain about 'politicians' not doing a good job.

Its a serious issue, and the ordinary people of Ireland are failing themselves. And there is no kind way to put it, but the people of Kerry are particularly ignorant of what a politician should be doing for them, and of their responsibilities to elect capable representatives.

The irony is that while those supporters think a good job is being done for them, in fact, a terrible job is being done, and to their cost. You certainly cant expect to have the crucial, nation defining services, development, infrastructure, competitiveness, and the planning of the future, when you elect someone whose forte is getting a pot hole filled, or a queue jump for a hospital appointment.
Yet those same people will bitch about politicians and political parties as if they are some 'other', and not the consequence of the people they choose, freely, to elect. Kerry is a very sad case, and a laughing stock. But the rest of the country is not far ahead.

KikiLaRue

Pherekydes wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Michael Noonan, Bertie Ahern et al are amongst the smartest and most capable people in the country?

Quite the opposite

I’m suggesting that our brightest and best see no compelling reason to go into politics so they pursue other things, leaving us with the mediocre.

lalababa

Plus the fact that some experts think it all might be obsolete in ten years time??

KikiLaRue

lalababa wrote: »

Yea, like correct me if I'm wrong but....the big push seems to be the moaning of rural businesses and remote workers and the kind of bandwagon of polictian s supporting this 'we gotta have broadband' mantra....BUT (I'm no techie) can't you get reasonably good internet speeds easily enough with a satellite dish or some other low cost solution without tearing up the roads or stringing it along the poles????

Can you imagine trying to run even a small to medium sized company (10-50 staff) with ****ty, unreliable broadband?

JohnnyFlash

Nobelium wrote: »

they are deplorable, but given the standards, ethics and conduct of Irish politicians why would an honest educated person go into Irish politics now ? - they wouldn't stand a chance.

Most politicians are decent, honest, and hard-working people who make tremendous personal sacrifices because of their sense of civic duty. And some of the knuckle-draggers who complain most vehemently about them on the internet are doing so because they blame the State and politicians for all their own shortcomings as people - their stupidity, greed, and jealousy. It avoids them having to look internally and see why they are losers.

stanley1989

Pay them more? I've heard it all now.. I'd strongly believe wadges should be slashed along with the amount of tds

Nobelium

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Quite the opposite

I’m suggesting that our brightest and best see no compelling reason to go into politics so they pursue other things, leaving us with the mediocre.

if you're in politics for the money, then you're in it for entirely the wrong reasons. We don't need more Berties and expenses and spin allowance junkies, we need fewer.

dxhound2005

CelticRambler wrote: »

That's the argument used to justify paying senior consultants and top bankers and all kinds of other "brightest and best" people that are supposedly needed to efficiently and successfully run whatever they're put in charge of. It rarely works, and it's unlikely to work in politics either. Pay four people a quarter of the salary and you'll get far more done by people who actually want to do it for what it is, not for the money.

It works in lots of companies e.g. gambling and airlines. The top brass there wouldn't get out of bed for less than a million. The gambling companies can get vast sums of money from people using their model. Whereas the politicians failed to get the same people to pay a water charge. It could be worth a try to attract some of those types into politics.

KikiLaRue

Nobelium wrote: »

if you're in politics for the money, then you're in it for entirely the wrong reasons. We don't need more Berties and expenses and spin allowance junkies, we need fewer.

So how would you suggest we attract the right kind of people with the right values?

As I said, it’s easy to point out problems, the country would be a better place if we focused less on moaning and more on solutions.

lalababa

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Igotadose wrote: »

I live in West Kerry and loath the healy-rae's. However, longer-term residents adore them. Not for their right-wing pro-Catholic Church politics.

Because if you phone them, they ring you back. If your road needs a repair and the county council can't get to it, you call Michael Healy-Rae's office, and on his way to work in a few days, he phones you from the car and dispatches an underling to deal with it.

There are way too many of these Healy-Raes in politics, they're all over the county council and so on, but you have to respect how they do their jobs. They're hands-on, good or bad. They should just stfu about climate, Trump, religion, etc. and keep the roads repaired, the bridges replaced, fiber optic run out to rural areas, etc.

This is the problem though. They dont do their jobs. They are not part of a leadership, reform, development, and governance of the country. They are two bit local fixers. If people are happy to elect their like (and they are only the high profile epitome of the syndrome - many others in the Dail are little different), then they cannot complain about 'politicians' not doing a good job.

Its a serious issue, and the ordinary people of Ireland are failing themselves. And there is no kind way to put it, but the people of Kerry are particularly ignorant of what a politician should be doing for them, and of their responsibilities to elect capable representatives.

The irony is that while those supporters think a good job is being done for them, in fact, a terrible job is being done, and to their cost. You certainly cant expect to have the crucial, nation defining services, development, infrastructure, competitiveness, and the planning of the future, when you elect someone whose forte is getting a pot hole filled, or a queue jump for a hospital appointment.
Yet those same people will bitch about politicians and political parties as if they are some 'other', and not the consequence of the people they choose, freely, to elect. Kerry is a very sad case, and a laughing stock. But the rest of the country is not far ahead.

MHR has a rather good record in Dail debates. He votes in the Dail. He has been a member of Dail committee s and Dail cross party and government led action groups. He protects the local services and kicks up a fuss if they are getting degraded.All this and he's not even in Gov.! He does a few things alright which he shouldn't be doing..like when he had his bike stolen... only then did I find out he goes regularly to the passport office in Dublin to get passports for people... basically like an errand boy. Tis grand and helpful like but he shouldn't be doing it!

dxhound2005

stanley1989 wrote: »

Pay them more? I've heard it all now.. I'd strongly believe wadges should be slashed along with the amount of tds

The number of politicians was slashed already, with the abolition of town councils and a reduction in TD's. Also the government wanted to abolish the Seanad, but that was rejected.

Their entire wages for a year would probably not pay the social welfare bill for a day. Anyone who wants to make a big difference in spending will have to concentrate on the bit three, Welfare, Health and Education. Everything else is is just tinkering at the edges.

Loafing Oaf

lalababa wrote: »

He does a few things alright which he shouldn't be doing..like when he had his bike stolen... only then did I find out he goes regularly to the passport office in Dublin to get passports for people.

Another thing he should not be doing that emerged from that incident is channeling Liam Neeson:

Nobelium

KikiLaRue wrote: »

So how would you suggest we attract the right kind of people with the right values?

As I said, it’s easy to point out problems, the country would be a better place if we focused less on moaning and more on solutions.

What you like to dismiss and attempt to silence and sweep under the carpet as moaning, is usually truthful ordinary people who still genuinely give a **** about the country instead of just themselves and their cronies.

You can't identify solutions until you correctly diagnose the actual problems and the actual causes. Effort needs to be focused on the root cause not just short term symptoms, or issuing continual PR statements.

The starting point is the young. If we are genuine about the continuous evolvement and improvement of human society, they should be taught critiical thinking, ethics, logic and philosophy. They should be taught to analyse each issue on it's own merits, instead of slavishly following the fatal divide and conquer strategy of pigeon holing people into pre defined identity/race/sexual politics and or so called / left / right politics.

Currently, honest educated people don't go into Irish politics, and who could blame them. Currently they don't stand a chance against the corrupt and the unethical, or just as bad, those who are only interested in pushing their own selfish identity politics / single group agenda.

dxhound2005

Nobelium wrote: »

What you like to dismiss and attempt to silence and sweep under the carpet as moaning, is usually truthful ordinary people who still genuinely give a **** about the country instead of just themselves and their cronies.

You can't identify solutions until you correctly diagnose the actual problems and the actual causes. Effort needs to be focused on the root cause not just short term symptoms, or issuing continual PR statements.

The starting point is the young. If we are genuine about the continuous evolvement and improvement of human society, they should be taught critiical thinking, ethics, logic and philosophy. They should be taught to analyse each issue on it's own merits, instead of slavishly following the fatal divide and conquer strategy of pigeon holing people into pre defined identity/race/sexual politics and or so called / left / right politics.

Currently, honest educated people don't go into Irish politics, and who could blame them. Currently they don't stand a chance against the corrupt and the unethical, or just as bad, those who are only interested in pushing their own selfish identity politics / single group agenda.

Either things are worse now, or better, or the same as in the past. If you think they are worse, what years in the past were better?

Your Face

But what are the uniforms like?

Wanderer78

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Either things are worse now, or better, or the same as in the past. If you think they are worse, what years in the past were better?

elements are far better, and other elements are worse

ressem

CelticRambler wrote: »

You might prefer to see that greener grass burning in other countries, but I'd much rather my neighbours weren't setting fire to the nation's infrastructure and costing the taxpayer millions of euros in extra policing costs every single feckin' weekend because they've nothing better to do than mouth off about how the government's not looking after them, even though it's that very same government that subsidises just about every aspect of their lives. :mad:

Our political parties do seem to pick other international counterparts to mirror.

Parts of FG try to cherrypick USA republican business-friendly policies.
FF moreso USA democrat, populist.
Sinn fein seem to identify with Cuban and Venezuelan leadership.
Labour probably the french socialists,

What ought the public aspire to? Switzerland, with it's heaver demands on the citizenry with 4 referendums per year? (E-Voting allowed)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Swiss_referendums

That's the argument used to justify paying senior consultants and top bankers and all kinds of other "brightest and best" people that are supposedly needed to efficiently and successfully run whatever they're put in charge of. It rarely works, and it's unlikely to work in politics either. Pay four people a quarter of the salary and you'll get far more done by people who actually want to do it for what it is, not for the money.

Agree, it's the lazy quick fix attempt to buy perfection.
Politics requires compromise, and much more communication and analysis.
And a lot of the problems have been created by old laws, that cause problems when our environment changes.

E.g. Varadkar and the Waterford mortuary.
Even as he displayed disbelief regarding the emergency alert raised by the 4 pathologists, and UHW management, and assistant chief Executive Officer of the SSW Hospital group

It looks like it required the embarrassment of the Taoiseach to get the temporary refrigerated prefabs in place.

It also seems that the HSE incident reporting process is failing to deliver information, and senior management are putting excessive trust in it being an accurate top-level view of the organisation.

Even the group CEO seemingly doesn't use it when he is alerted by letter to a failure that threatens employees and patients.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/senior-hospital-official-appalled-at-condition-of-waterford-mortuary-1.3879288

(A failing that happens in corporations as well, with million euro compensated directors)

Ministers and the Taoiseach need to get out of a twittering immediate comment mode, and adopt a conscientious manager approach; delegate & verify.

As for what political parties should provide?
I believed that their party political organisation, local councilors, would act at the ground level to verify delivery of effective state services to feed information to the Dail?
Is that also malfunctioning, or is it just ignored by the higher-ups in the party.

Nobelium

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Either things are worse now, or better, or the same as in the past. If you think they are worse, what years in the past were better?

Some things are better, some things are worse . . it's not some simple linear graph. Other than learning the lessons that can be learned from the past, that's where the past should stay. What we do today is the future. It's to the future we should be thinking about and planning and acting correctly now for the greater good of all. It's about pushing for continuous improvement and evolvement of Irish and wider human society for the greater good of everyone, not just certain interests and identities and divide and conquer politics. That push should never end. The countries and societies that get this will thrive, those that don't will perish.

dxhound2005

ressem wrote: »

As for what political parties should provide?
I believed that their party political organisation, local councilors, would act at the ground level to verify delivery of effective state services to feed information to the Dail?
Is that also malfunctioning, or is it just ignored by the higher-ups in the party.

A practical example of what local councils do when given some power. Central government broadened the tax base by bringing in property tax. They also tried to introduce water charges. Local councils in some cases actually reduce their revenue stream by cutting the property tax. This makes them more popular and electable locally, but it is not a good way to operate for the overall benefit of a council area.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/property/local-property-tax/valuing-your-property/has-your-local-authority-rate-changed.aspx

Atoms for Peace

I'm voting PBP on the assumption that they are an Irish branch of the monster raving loony party.

Seth Brundle

lalababa wrote: »

MHR has a rather good record in Dail debates. He votes in the Dail. He has been a member of Dail committee s and Dail cross party and government led action groups. He protects the local services and kicks up a fuss if they are getting degraded.All this and he's not even in Gov.! He does a few things alright which he shouldn't be doing..like when he had his bike stolen... only then did I find out he goes regularly to the passport office in Dublin to get passports for people... basically like an errand boy. Tis grand and helpful like but he shouldn't be doing it!

https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1115990058333614080?s=19

Nobelium

ressem wrote: »

As for what political parties should provide?
I believed that their party political organisation, local councilors, would act at the ground level to verify delivery of effective state services to feed information to the Dail?
Is that also malfunctioning, or is it just ignored by the higher-ups in the party.

It's both malfunctioning and being ignored. The public prefer going to TD's as they know Councillors have little or no power to deliver anything other than endless talking shops and pantomime performances for the local paper. TD's have little or no power to deliver anything either, but they might have access to a Minster now and then. A government Minister is the lowest level in the Irish political system, that in reality has any actual access to any resources and their actual allocation. Ministers are never ever going to delegate that power to mere TD's never mind Councillors.

dxhound2005

Nobelium wrote: »

Some things are better, some things are worse . . it's not some simple linear graph. Other than learning the lessons that can be learned from the past, that's where the past should stay. What we do today is the future. It's to the future we should be thinking about and planning and acting correctly now for the greater good of all. It's about pushing for continuous improvement and evolvement of Irish and wider human society for the greater good of everyone, not just certain interests and identities and divide and conquer politics. That push should never end. The countries and societies that get this will thrive, those that don't will perish.

Where things are better would you give any credit to politicians for making them better?

Nobelium

lalababa wrote: »

.. only then did I find out he goes regularly to the passport office in Dublin to get passports for people... basically like an errand boy. Tis grand and helpful like but he shouldn't be doing it!

That's what people in Ireland vote for, they haven't a clue or care about the Dail or Dail committees. If he or any other Irish TD didn't do that or hundreds of similar trivial errands and applications for their constituents, they would not have a hope in hell of being elected. The quality of the average Irish politician is directly related to the quality of the average Irish voter. Love them or loath them, and I loath them, the Healy-Rae's are well able for anyone, and can buy and sell anyone who makes the very stupid assumption they are smarter than they are, or know the Irish political game better.

Nobelium

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Where things are better would you give any credit to politicians for making them better?

Again, it's not as simplistic as that. Very little if anything in Irish politics is genuine, it's a means to a personal end for themselves and their cronies.

CelticRambler

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It works in lots of companies e.g. gambling and airlines.

Airlines? Have you ever looked at the number of times airlines go bust through bad management, or flirt with bankruptcy until they can shaft their own suppliers and get bailed out by their local taxpayers?

dxhound2005

Nobelium wrote: »

Again, it's not as simplistic as that. Very little if anything in Irish politics is genuine, it's a means to a personal end for themselves and their cronies.

If they want personal gains they can get a lot more outside of politics. And there is a lot more corruption in private business.

dxhound2005

CelticRambler wrote: »

Airlines? Have you ever looked at the number of times airlines go bust through bad management, or flirt with bankruptcy until they can shaft their own suppliers and get bailed out by their local taxpayers?

A simple number would not be useful. What percentage of airlines do you mean? And whatever is going on doesn't stop the top brass in airlines being paid many multiples of what any politician gets.

ressem

dxhound2005 wrote: »

A practical example of what local councils do when given some power. Central government broadened the tax base by bringing in property tax. They also tried to introduce water charges. Local councils in some cases actually reduce their revenue stream by cutting the property tax. This makes them more popular and electable locally, but it is not a good way to operate for the overall benefit of a council area.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/property/local-property-tax/valuing-your-property/has-your-local-authority-rate-changed.aspx

Depends, the councils that reduced rates were high population Dublin/ Fingal / Dun Laoghaire region, that might justify this by the high property pricing and savings from increased density, whenever the next property valuation review takes place.
I'd worry about other areas where councils might be too cowardly to increase rates since 2014, allowing them to be eaten by inflation.

Nobelium wrote: »

It's both malfunctioning and being ignored. The public prefer going to TD's as they know Councillors have little or no power to deliver anything other than endless talking shops and pantomime performances for the local paper. TD's have little or no power to deliver anything either, but they might have access to a Minster now and then. A government Minister is the lowest level in the Irish political system, that in reality has any actual access to any resources and their actual allocation. Ministers are never ever going to delegate that power to mere TD's never mind Councillors.

Pretty defeatist, and I've observed some areas where councilors have an influence.
Lots of the public send letters to TDs about issues that can and are handled acceptably by a local UDC employee.

The original question wasn't about power, more about party internal communication. If a political party as a whole is seen as effective at communicating the public's issues internally, isn't that a selling point for the entire party membership?
If members of a party can't do so internally, then they are unlikely to communicate effectively with the public sector and state organisations, and get the information back to the citizen.

Is it the case that party TDs can't accomplish this at close to the level of an independent like Healy Rea?


And an established, funded party should be able to get such communication channels setup more quickly than a new startup party struggling for awareness and membership.

Kermit.de.frog

Seth Brundle wrote: »

https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1115990058333614080?s=19

Jesus, that is...what do you even say to that??

It makes me despair.

Nobelium

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If they want personal gains they can get a lot more outside of politics. And there is a lot more corruption in private business.

Some can, some can't, and private business doesn't usually fck up an entire country in the process.

Nobelium

ressem wrote: »

Pretty defeatist, and I've observed some areas where councilors have an influence.

No pretty realistic and based on actual reality, not PR spin. Councillors achieve fck all. They have next to zero executive powers or leverage over the executive, and the council executive are at the beck and call of the dept. It's all pantomime, and a very centralised, small, tightly controlled power center.

ressem wrote: »

The original question wasn't about power, more about party internal communication.

Everything is about power or at the very least access to it, leverage, or quid pro quo. If you don't know that you know feck all about real politics.

dxhound2005

Nobelium wrote: »

Some can, some can't, and private business doesn't usually fck up an entire country in the process.

Bertie Aherns government was one of the most popular ever, getting elected three times and relegating FG to 31 seats in the process. Only bettered by Jack Lynch in 1977 who got the biggest majority ever by abolishing domestic rates (property tax / water and bin charges). He also abolished road/motor tax. It's what the people wanted.

In Bertie's and Charlie McCreevy's liberal financial regimes the economy flourished, but it was actually private business in the shape of the banks which had to be bailed out by the taxpayer in the end. Which was necessary to protect the hundreds of thousands of individual depositors, and those who borrowed more than they could afford. Some people wanted to let them go under, but whether that would have worked out better in the long run nobody knows.

It doesn't matter who is in power in a capitalist economy, there will always be recessions.

Nobelium

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Bertie Aherns government was one of the most popular ever, getting elected three times and relegating FG to 31 seats in the process. Only bettered by Jack Lynch in 1977 who got the biggest majority ever by abolishing domestic rates (property tax / water and bin charges). He also abolished road/motor tax. It's what the people wanted.

In Bertie's and Charlie McCreevy's liberal financial regimes the economy flourished, but it was actually private business in the shape of the banks which had to be bailed out by the taxpayer in the end. Which was necessary to protect the hundreds of thousands of individual depositors, and those who borrowed more than they could afford. Some people wanted to let them go under, but whether that would have worked out better in the long run nobody knows.

It doesn't matter who is in power in a capitalist economy, there will always be recessions.

i'm sure there's a point in there somewhere . . .politicians are the ones that decide how much freedom for shenanigans business has

Wheeliebin30

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Bertie Aherns government was one of the most popular ever, getting elected three times and relegating FG to 31 seats in the process. Only bettered by Jack Lynch in 1977 who got the biggest majority ever by abolishing domestic rates (property tax / water and bin charges). He also abolished road/motor tax. It's what the people wanted.

In Bertie's and Charlie McCreevy's liberal financial regimes the economy flourished, but it was actually private business in the shape of the banks which had to be bailed out by the taxpayer in the end. Which was necessary to protect the hundreds of thousands of individual depositors, and those who borrowed more than they could afford. Some people wanted to let them go under, but whether that would have worked out better in the long run nobody knows.

It doesn't matter who is in power in a capitalist economy, there will always be recessions.

Charlie Mcgreevy and his giveaway budgets are the reason FG are still trying to battle the war machine that is the public sector.

They have become an unstoppable monster, just look at the nurses strike.

dxhound2005

Nobelium wrote: »

i'm sure there's a point in there somewhere . . .politicians are the ones that decide how much freedom for shenanigans business has

But they are a tiny number of the population, and just by sheer numbers there has to be a lot more shenanigans by those involved in private business.

Even where both sides are involved there has to be a dodgy builder for every dodgy planner or politician taking a brown envelope. And every dodgy journalist paying a dodgy Garda for inside information. The difference is that in business there will be lots of managers and editors who authorise this sort of thing, whereas it will usually be one bent individual on the public service side.

The Rape of Lucretia

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Bertie Aherns government was one of the most popular ever,

Popular is the nub of the problem. In Ireland, due to the poor political judgement and sophistication of the electorate, there is a strong inverse correlation between a government popularity and how good a job they are doing. This is universal across whatever party or combination of is in power, so having another political party will not help this fundamental problem of people not being able to vote responsibly for their own overall good, and the long term good of the country.

4068ac1elhodqr

The solution may come in the way of independents (as demonstrated recently in the uk/ni by their widespread gains).

If the established do fook all, apart from look after themselves (likely all got creamy nest eggs in the sweltering housing market), then a group of independent figures may wake them up.
There's no harm in the OP pointing out the issues, or indeed for anyone else to ask questions.
Without questions you won't get any answers.

Also with a group of free thinking independents, you'll get more questions, and it's also much harder to 'brown envelope' them all.

Nobelium

dxhound2005 wrote: »

But they are a tiny number of the population, and just by sheer numbers there has to be a lot more shenanigans by those involved in private business.

Even where both sides are involved there has to be a dodgy builder for every dodgy planner or politician taking a brown envelope. And every dodgy journalist paying a dodgy Garda for inside information. The difference is that in business there will be lots of managers and editors who authorise this sort of thing, whereas it will usually be one bent individual on the public service side.

and who do you think has the most capacity to destroy a country ? a single bent planner or a single bent mininster that permits and fosters many bent planners among other things ?

MrMusician18

KikiLaRue wrote: »

And how would yours be different?

The most viable party that has emerged in the last few years has been the Social Democrats.

They have actual policies and a vision.

I think they’ll probably do well in the locals.

They lost my support when they backed the luas drivers ludicrous strike

dxhound2005

Nobelium wrote: »

and who do you think has the most capacity to destroy a country ? a single bent planner or a single bent mininster that permits and fosters many bent planners among other things ?

You say destroy a country and you used this phrase earlier fck up an entire country

What do you mean?

whisky_galore

KikiLaRue wrote: »

In my lifetime we’ve used referenda to introduce divorce, legalise gay marriage and abortion, and this month we’ll most likely vote to make divorce easier.

I take your point to a degree about elections, but not referenda.

The referenda voted upon recently were all safe horses to bet on at this stage. Govt see which way the wind blows and they go with it.

You won't find them putting up any sort of issue that will make them less popular to the general population, or conflict with vested interests.

The Rape of Lucretia

Jace Unkempt Retiree wrote: »

The solution may come in the way of independents (as demonstrated recently in the uk/ni by their widespread gains).

Independents are the sure sign of an inability of the people to vote.

Its just a childish protest vote, hero worship of some local notable even if that was only as a business man or football coach, support for cranks or novelty politicians like Mick Wallace, Ming, whatever Healy Rae you are having yourself. Not only is a complete waste of a vote, it its harmful to the responsible government of the country.

People see them as a protest against 'real' politicians, or the political parties. But takes no consideration of how thilts lone wolf might actually achieve anything, other than making government by the responsible people in power even more difficult.
Anyone voting for independents should have their fitness to vote evaluated.

dxhound2005

whisky_galore wrote: »

The referenda voted upon recently were all safe horses to bet on at this stage. Govt see which way the wind blows and they go with it.

You won't find them putting up any sort of issue that will make them less popular to the general population, or conflict with vested interests.

Vested interests usually have a vested interest in gaining extra money or protecting the money they have. And since financial matters cannot be the subject of a referendum this does not add up. The government did give us the choice to abolish the Seanad, against the vested interests of fellow politicians.

whisky_galore

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Vested interests usually have a vested interest in gaining extra money or protecting the money they have. And since financial matters cannot be the subject of a referendum this does not add up. The government did give us the choice to abolish the Seanad, against the vested interests of fellow politicians.

Failed politicians it must be said.

mickoneill31

whisky_galore wrote: »

The referenda voted upon recently were all safe horses to bet on at this stage. Govt see which way the wind blows and they go with it.

You won't find them putting up any sort of issue that will make them less popular to the general population, or conflict with vested interests.

So what you're saying is that the government brought in referenda that the people agreed with. I would have thought that's what they should do.

Can you give an example of a referendum that you think should be done but that would make them less popular with the population or that conflicts with vested interests?

ILoveYourVibes

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So new day, same issues


Local children play area closing because it can't get insurance
Car insurance for myself has come in and sky rocketed
3 billion on firing out broadband to a few homes
I dont know what current figure is for a hospital
No resolution or plan for housing issue
They call green crisis and 6,yes 6, of them are in the bloody Dail
HSE is a mess



Is it time people stood together and created a new political party? Just general off the street people and decide to run and get the locals to support. at the moment we have


Fine Gael: Dont know how long in power but they have done f**k all. Project after project is a disaster.

Fine Fail: no better that the other clowns
Labour: are they even around anymore? useless when they got some power
Green party:disaster, local guy posting about how he is supporting building a road...not very green
People before Profit: idiots....
Sine Fein: no idea what they are doing, best part of f**k all.


The question is would the Irish people do it? if you talk in Europe and this was going on in any other country they place would burning with riots etc. Governments thrown out. In Ireland we just keep going and let them do what they want....


Is it time to pull together and create our own party? dump the current lot and leave them in the last century?

I would advise you not to let me join i would be rubbish.

You are correct FG are the worst project managers as a govt. FF can't supervise or enforce the law enough to protect public assets .

The Rape of Lucretia

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You are correct FG are the worst project managers as a govt. FF can't supervise or enforce the law enough to protect public assets .

FG or FF as entities dont do anything. Its the people that are elected that do something. And if they do little or do it poorly, then its only the people who elected than that are to blame.
Nor is it the job of parties or politicians to project manage. That is the role of the civil service. But being drawn from the same well as the politicians, they arent, indeed, very good at it.

Until the Irish people wake up to the fact that they themselves are to blame for all that they like to bitch about and pass blame on to some other detached party, like politicians or parties, then their lot will not improve.