New manager has no Qualification or experience

Hoboo

Karlee Bald Numerator wrote: »

It's perfectly fine to hire a family member of a current employee. In the private sector, there is no standard procedure. As long as you don't discriminate against someone on the basis on one of the seven protected grounds (gender, marital status, family status, age disability, sexual orientation, race, religion, and membership of the Traveller community), you can hire whoever you like.

Especially at the higher levels, jobs are often filled through personal networks (and sometimes even created to hire someone from a network). This is completely normal and above board.

It's 9 grounds. And it's not perfectly fine to hire someone without advertising internally. It's not illegal, but it won't help in a case for discrimination.

I'd have a chat OP with whoever's owns the company. Outline your skills, experience, your understanding of the role and especially their clients, and your understanding of their competitors.

After you've done that, and nothing happens, you either hand in your notice and work it, or seek legal advice regarding constructive dismissal and walk straight away.

But definitely speak to the top person, no point speaking to HR (doesn't sound like a professional HR outfit to me either).

Hoboo

Hoboo wrote: »

It's 9 grounds. And it's not perfectly fine to hire someone without advertising internally. It's not illegal, but it won't help in a case for discrimination.

I'd have a chat OP with whoever's owns the company. Outline your skills, experience, your understanding of the role and especially their clients, and your understanding of their competitors.

After you've done that, and nothing happens, you either hand in your notice and work it, or seek legal advice regarding constructive dismissal and walk straight away.

But definitely speak to the top person, no point speaking to HR (doesn't sound like a professional HR outfit to me either).

what discrimination case?

fine to hire without comp in private sector

extremely, extremely unlikely the owner of the co- if OP has access to them, or whatever level they do have access- isnt aware and approving of this appt

by all means raise the issue, frame it as about you and your goals, and not about anyone else.

Wabbit Ears

a good marketing person may not make a good marketing manager and they may not also be a good people manager. OP didnt say if he has any managerial qualifications but from the post it Doesnt appear so. he also never expressed interest in the job so unsurprisingly was not considered for the role.

There is a trend in business at the moment away from technical managers towards whats referred to as people managers. People managers manage people, thats their job. How to market or do marketing, digital or otherwise isnt part of their job description. They require only a high level knowledge of what their people do on a day to day basis. Essentially a people manager of a marketing department has no need to do any marketing themselves.


Of course this is a stupid trend that wont last long. Theres been a huge cull recently in the company I work for of most middle management who were promoted up within their teams in favour of people managers. There is massive drops in engagement across all these teams. Its not right and the company has lost some of its best, most experienced and loyal workers.

IAMAMORON

Hoboo wrote: »

It's 9 grounds. And it's not perfectly fine to hire someone without advertising internally. It's not illegal, but it won't help in a case for discrimination.

I'd have a chat OP with whoever's owns the company. Outline your skills, experience, your understanding of the role and especially their clients, and your understanding of their competitors.

After you've done that, and nothing happens, you either hand in your notice and work it, or seek legal advice regarding constructive dismissal and walk straight away.

But definitely speak to the top person, no point speaking to HR (doesn't sound like a professional HR outfit to me either).

This is complete waffle, do not even attempt any of this if you want a solid reference. In marketing you don't get the luxury of adopting a non commercial attitude to your organisation, this is not Dublin Bus or a Hospital.

The owners of the company will not be dealing with you head on if you elect to chase them or go above HR. That is the HR managers job. The owners will not entertain any " chats " with you. It is obvious from your initial post that you were not considered for a promotion anyway.

Don't bother trying to go legal, it will take you years to prove and you need a reference. By the sounds of things the company has done nothing wrong except overlooking you for a promotion, tough luck but not a grounds for unfair or constructive dismissal, at all.

Get a new job and get out of there.

rd1izb7lvpuksx

Hoboo wrote: »

And it's not perfectly fine to hire someone without advertising internally. It's not illegal, but it won't help in a case for discrimination.

It is perfectly fine, and extremely common. At any seniority, it's the standard.

victor8600

Karlee Bald Numerator wrote: »

It is perfectly fine, and extremely common. At any seniority, it's the standard.

It can be legal and extremely common, but it does not make it "fine".

It is a bad HR management practice which leads to the company being seen as being unfair. How motivated the new manager going to be if she got the job without any competition? You want to hire your sister in a private company? Let her be interviewed alongside with 3 other candidates, and then pick her if she compares favourably. Everyone wins -- the company is seen as picking the best candidate, the sister is not just handed down the job.

rd1izb7lvpuksx

victor8600 wrote: »

It can be legal and extremely common, but it does not make it "fine".

It is a bad HR management practice which leads to the company being seen as being unfair. How motivated the new manager going to be if she got the job without any competition? You want to hire your sister in a private company? Let her be interviewed alongside with 3 other candidates, and then pick her if she compares favourably. Everyone wins -- the company is seen as picking the best candidate, the sister is not just handed down the job.

It is absolutely fine. Whether the person is related or not is beside the point - if a company finds someone who can fulfil their need, it is not only normal but sensible to hire them without competition.

Saying it's a bad HR practice is laughable and shows how poorly you understand the role of HR in a company. HR do not hire (expect HR roles) - they facilitate hiring.

The idea that candidates are only motivated by competition is also nuts. The best people to hire are almost always already working somewhere - because they're the best. Frequently they will be approached about positions rather than applying for them. The idea that otherwise excellent, self-motivated employees will slack off because they didn't have to compete for the role says much more about your thought process than the reality in the workplace.

victor8600

Karlee Bald Numerator wrote: »

sensible to hire them without competition

I am not going to go back and forwards with you on this. I am sure in your high management circles best people are snatched out of their current jobs with offers of partnerships and they leap into action proactively implementing out of the box strategies to make grunts work better for imaginative performance metrics. And they are revered for their forward thinking and nobody questions why this particular snake oil merchant was hired.

RiseToMe

OP you mentioned the quality dept and that she had a qualification in that area, is your companys service based around testing/laboratory type services? I only ask as it would then not be unheard of for somebody with no direct marketing experience to be involved in that area as they would have the technical expertise to help to market appropriately and would fall in line with any accreditation requirements

mrslancaster

Lucas Hood wrote: »

Seems bit mad hiring someone with no background in marketing to run a marketing dept.

You can't just learn how the industry works sitting down with someone for a week or 2.

I'd be wary of stuff coming back on op if anything went wrong. "well op told me this"

I suppose it depends. If a current employee is just providing training in the company processes or whatever systems they use then that's fine as not every company operates in the same way and even experienced and qualified new employees need a handover period to pick up the reins.

Doterraorange wrote: »

She didn't say, she just said she had a quality qualification and background.

Agree with others that managing is different to actually knowing and doing the nuts and bolts of a role but the OP said she was asked to show the new manager the ropes and what the OP's job entails. Thats a different scenario imo and it sounds a bit suss.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

a good marketing person may not make a good marketing manager and they may not also be a good people manager. OP didnt say if he has any managerial qualifications but from the post it Doesnt appear so. he also never expressed interest in the job so unsurprisingly was not considered for the role.

There is a trend in business at the moment away from technical managers towards whats referred to as people managers. People managers manage people, thats their job. How to market or do marketing, digital or otherwise isnt part of their job description. They require only a high level knowledge of what their people do on a day to day basis. Essentially a people manager of a marketing department has no need to do any marketing themselves.


Of course this is a stupid trend that wont last long. Theres been a huge cull recently in the company I work for of most middle management who were promoted up within their teams in favour of people managers. There is massive drops in engagement across all these teams. Its not right and the company has lost some of its best, most experienced and loyal workers.

A people manager is all well and good but you need to manage people not one man on his own.

beauf

Doterraorange wrote: »

I am working in a marketing role the last 3 years and have a diploma in digital marketing which i done in DBS a number of years ago.

I ...
Is this normal ? has anyone experienced this before?

Yes. Probably every one has. Seen it happen to whole teams.

You're too long in the same job. You need to move.

If I were you I'd look for another job, if you get something better or same with better potential, then give minimal legal notice.

Hoboo

IAMAMORON wrote: »

This is complete waffle, do not even attempt any of this if you want a solid reference. In marketing you don't get the luxury of adopting a non commercial attitude to your organisation, this is not Dublin Bus or a Hospital.

The owners of the company will not be dealing with you head on if you elect to chase them or go above HR. That is the HR managers job. The owners will not entertain any " chats " with you. It is obvious from your initial post that you were not considered for a promotion anyway.

Don't bother trying to go legal, it will take you years to prove and you need a reference. By the sounds of things the company has done nothing wrong except overlooking you for a promotion, tough luck but not a grounds for unfair or constructive dismissal, at all.

Get a new job and get out of there.

Complete waffle from a HR Director? Another boards warrior with unqualified opinions they've garnered in the canteen. You've no idea. Who said anything about unfair dismissal. No one was dismissed. Who needs a reference from this company? A reference is nothing more that a confirmation of title, role and dates. Even the "would you employ this person again" question which boards warriors think is the opportunity to say something negative without saying it doesn't work! Constructive?......if only you knew anything about similar cases and precedent.

The owners of the company will appreciate knowing what's going on,.the 'HR' person isn't worth their title, I'd imagine a glorified office manager with no qualifications other than some bs cert from the NRF or CIPD.

My original advice stands. Speak to the top person, then either resign, or quit on the spot and seek advice. Mediation takes weeks not years. I've been through the process multiple times when I started out in my career. It hasn't changed, in fact it has improved.

Boards is full of 'experts', especially when it comes to employee/employer rights. It's laughable.

beauf

Hoboo wrote: »

...I've been through the process multiple times when I started out in my career. ...

... regardless if employer or employee is that a good thing...?

I've always wondered about constructive dismissal. In the long term how does it work out for the person. Anything I've seen online isn't always encouraging. I've never known anyone personally who has gone down that route.

Hoboo

Hoboo wrote: »

Complete waffle from a HR Director? Another boards warrior with unqualified opinions they've garnered in the canteen. You've no idea. Who said anything about unfair dismissal. No one was dismissed. Who needs a reference from this company? A reference is nothing more that a confirmation of title, role and dates. Even the "would you employ this person again" question which boards warriors think is the opportunity to say something negative without saying it doesn't work! Constructive?......if only you knew anything about similar cases and precedent.

The owners of the company will appreciate knowing what's going on,.the 'HR' person isn't worth their title, I'd imagine a glorified office manager with no qualifications other than some bs cert from the NRF or CIPD.

My original advice stands. Speak to the top person, then either resign, or quit on the spot and seek advice. Mediation takes weeks not years. I've been through the process multiple times when I started out in my career. It hasn't changed, in fact it has improved.

Boards is full of 'experts', especially when it comes to employee/employer rights. It's laughable.

complete waffle from anyone.

plenty of bad hr directors out there. a lot of them with chips on their shoulder too.

OP, i wouldnt be banging any doors down demanding answers and i wouldnt be advising you to "resign on the spot".

but maybe thats just me being another boards warrior, who knows.

Mrs OBumble

Doterraorange wrote: »

I am working in a marketing role the last 3 years and have a diploma in digital marketing which i done in DBS a number of years ago.

You have a diploma not a degree, and it's just in digital not marketing overall. You likely have one year's experience three times over. I would not consider you a marketing expert by any means, nor in any way ready for a management position.

beauf

Someone can be a great manager with no qualifications at all. Likewise loads of qualifications and useless. Who knows.

In this case you have someone with zero knowledge being made manager over sometime with both qualifications and experience.

IAMAMORON

Hoboo wrote: »

The owners of the company will appreciate knowing what's going on,.the 'HR' person isn't worth their title, I'd imagine a glorified office manager with no qualifications other than some bs cert from the NRF or CIPD.

More waffle. I mean how do you have any concept of the ethos of the Op's company or indeed how qualified the Op's HR manager is?

IAMAMORON

Hoboo wrote: »

My original advice stands. Speak to the top person, then either resign, or quit on the spot and seek advice. Mediation takes weeks not years. I've been through the process multiple times when I started out in my career. It hasn't changed, in fact it has improved.

OP, please ignore this garbage. Do not attempt to quit on the spot or have any casual conversations with the " Top Person ". As I have said in my previous post you will simply be smiled at, agreed with and then told to bring it up with your HR manager. I have no idea what this poster is rambling about. Please ignore their advice, it is not good.

Bob Harris

An important point to note is that the OP never expressed their interest in the role.
The manager left, they took on the running of the department and never said a word about
being considered for the role permanently.

beauf

Bob Harris wrote: »

An important point to note is that the OP never expressed their interest in the role.
The manager left, they took on the running of the department and never said a word about
being considered for the role permanently.

It's no surprise to hear that "Simon says" is considered a valid policy in HR these days.

micky jammy delahunty

beauf wrote: »

It's no surprise to hear that "Simon says" is considered a valid policy in HR these days.

I just found out....Larry Gogan's daughter...(same Larry Gogan, 60 second quiz).....His daughter...Who started her "career" working on Larry's show..before being bounced up to RTE "management", is now a HR "management" specialist.


If any of you have ever worked in a company in Dublin, you'll have run into a few of these RTE knackers....♫Life is just a dream♫ ...

beauf

Nepotism is one one thing. Victim blaming to cover HR or management ineptitude is worse..

BrokenArrows

A manager doesnt necessarily need to have any experience in the tasks that their team do. Their job is about managing the people who get the actual work done.

However, usually managers do have experience in the tasks their employees are doing. But in my opinion its not required.

In some cases managers who know the subject think they know better and overrule their employees. This results in bad decision making.

Managers need to trust their employees to make the correct decisions. "marketing decisions" in this case. The results of those decisions dictate whether they were the correct decisions or not.

beauf

Don't disagree.

But if you are are bypassed very obviously for promotional opportunities. You have to make changes yourself.

micky jammy delahunty

BrokenArrows wrote: »

A manager doesnt necessarily need to have any experience in the tasks that their team do. Their job is about managing the people who get the actual work done.

That's often the excuse used to have people who are generally too incompetent to actually really have a job, doing anything, be managers. I've seen it several times, where I've able to check the performance metrics of a manager I feel there's something dodgy with, and I've found in several instances, they failed to meet the basic performance targets for remaining in employment in their previous role.

And I mean several times, like when I found the records they were so awful I thought I was mistaken or I was looking at stuff that couldn't possibly be correct. You do not promote someone from a sales desk to a management role, if that person only rarely makes a sale, and everyone else is chalking up thousands of calls and hitting their targets. And people who are not hitting their targets, but still making sales but not enough to cover their wages, are getting fired all the time You do not promote them unless there's some weird ideology going on, like you're trying deliberately promote the stupidest and laziest person you can find.

HR managers....that's a whole new level of fraud....

Andrew00

Sounds to me OP is jealous they didn't get a promotion

Hedgelayer

micky jammy delahunty wrote: »

That's often the excuse used to have people who are generally too incompetent to actually really have a job, doing anything, be managers. I've seen it several times, where I've able to check the performance metrics of a manager I feel there's something dodgy with, and I've found in several instances, they failed to meet the basic performance targets for remaining in employment in their previous role.

And I mean several times, like when I found the records they were so awful I thought I was mistaken or I was looking at stuff that couldn't possibly be correct. You do not promote someone from a sales desk to a management role, if that person only rarely makes a sale, and everyone else is chalking up thousands of calls and hitting their targets. And people who are not hitting their targets, but still making sales but not enough to cover their wages, are getting fired all the time You do not promote them unless there's some weird ideology going on, like you're trying deliberately promote the stupidest and laziest person you can find.

HR managers....that's a whole new level of fraud....

I have seen something similar going on in the public sector.
People getting promoted who are totally incompetent, but sometimes it makes sense to promote these goons.
As they're usually quite thick, will walk all over people and don't have much of a consciousness.

Fillers I call them, usually they end up being miserable for an extra 100 euro a week + 15 times the responsibility...

I myself prefer to keep my head down and get on with the job.

cmac2009

Andrew00 wrote: »

Sounds to me OP is jealous they didn't get a promotion

1/10 for trolling.

scamalert

OP might as well said HR put in family member with 0 experience company has no ****ing clue who they are hiring and now hes asked to train person who will be managing him and others, total **** show, sad but common issue where family or someone has higher position to pull such crap off.