How are the tolls legal, and why are they still there?

magicbastarder

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure, if the objective is to move people away from more efficient modes of transport to private cars

not sure of the logic here. are you arguing that if fixed costs were lower, people would be more inclined to have the car sitting in the driveway (costing less to merely sit there), they'd be then inclined to use it more, even if actual use is more expensive?

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

Correct.

Fixed costs like VRT and motor tax should be reduced/reformed, and more pay-by-use taxes increased.

By this I mean higher fuel excise / carbon tax, and congestion charges in cities.

But lower VRT.

Higher taxes on the use of cars in cities.

Sleeper12

epicmoe wrote:

Does it not infringe our right to travel? wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now. whats going on?

You are free to use a different route so no infringement on right to travel. I'm not even sure if you have a right to "free" travel.

No it was never ever promised that they would be toll free once paid for. Ireland's first toll Bridge, East Link was to be owned by the East Link company for 30 years. This was to give them plenty of time to make money from their investment. It was then to be handled over to the government or DCC to run. This is exactly what has happened. There was never a suggestion that it would be toll free after 30 years.

You'll love this, there are plans afoot to add more tolls to the M50. Apart from raising money more toll sections will stop people hoping on for 2 or 3 stops & help free up the m50 for people making longer journeys. It's nuts that you can drive from bray to lucan toll free. There will be 2 or 3 tolls on that section within 10 years.

tjhook

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You'll love this, there are plans afoot to add more tolls to the M50. Apart from raising money more toll sections will stop people hoping on for 2 or 3 stops & help free up the m50 for people making longer journeys. It's nuts that you can drive from bray to lucan toll free. There will be 2 or 3 tolls on that section within 10 years.

I can definitely see the attraction of enticing drivers to detour through the neighbouring residential and urban areas.
It doesn't seem like there's any plan - they're just lobbing random taxes and fees around the place.

Sleeper12

tjhook wrote:

I can definitely see the attraction of enticing drivers to detour through the neighbouring residential and urban areas. It doesn't seem like there's any plan - they're just lobbing random taxes and fees around the place.

The m50 is designed to get traffic from on side of the city to the other. It is part of the main route from North to wexford. Remembering heavy goods traffic are banned from the city. It was never designed to hop on & off after only a few stops. More tolls over the length of the m50 will keep it moving for the traffic it was designed for. Originally, at the time of design, there were to be toll booths on most entrances onto the m50. This idea was scrapped when we started getting mile long tailbacks at the west link toll booth.

First Up

A higher toll for middle lane hoggers would work wonders.

donvito99

donvito99 wrote: »

Everybody paid for the road's construction, but you ought to pay for causing congestion. Same as electricity, water, A&E etc.

The only congestion in Fermoy/Rathcormac/Watergrasshill is caused by a toll and is traffic meant to use the motorway to bypass these places.

Esoecially dangerous heavy goods traffic going to Cork or Dublin

tjhook

Sleeper12 wrote: »

More tolls over the length of the m50 will keep it moving for the traffic it was designed for.

I'm not trying to be smart, but how? People are using the M50 to get form A to B.

Maybe some people will decide not to travel at all. But given that most congestion is at rush hour(s), I'm guessing it's people traveling to/from work.

If everybody just pays the toll, it won't help congestion. But I don't think that's what will happen.

If some proportion of people divert through neighbouring areas, that will improve congestion on the M50. But I would have thought it will make things worse overall. I can see this happening to a significant extent.

Ideally, it could move people to public transport. And in some cases I imagine it will. But I take public transport. It is already crowded (see Irish Rail admitting they won't be able to supply more carriages for some years to come), and the routes don't work at all unless you're traveling to Dublin city centre (e.g. how to get from commuter areas like Lucan or Naas to Sandyford at rush hour?). And it's not priced particularly attractively, especially when you consider park and ride fees. The solution isn't to keep jacking up public transport fees, and then adding fees on driving just to match it.

Viable alternatives need to be provided before hitting the public with more taxes and fees.

magicbastarder

it would be interesting to see how many people use the m50 but don't actually cross the bridge; i used to work on a team of seven people out in sandyford; i was the only person not to drive to the office. the other six did, and none of them hit the toll. which obviously unfair on those who do use the M50 and do pay a toll simply through a geographic accident. they're using a facility they are paying for, stuck behind a car which may not have paid for the same facility.

however, there is that question about the knock on effects of blanket tolling on the M50, what happens the surrounding areas if people bail out onto surrounding roads. it's using a stick without providing any carrots for people to find actual alternatives to driving.

tjhook

tjhook wrote: »

And it's not priced particularly attractively, especially when you consider park and ride fees. The solution isn't to keep jacking up public transport fees, and then adding fees on driving just to match it.

Viable alternatives need to be provided before hitting the public with more taxes and fees.

And this is what consecutive governments fail to grasp. Public transport should not be run as a solely "for profit" enterprise. It's function is to allow the smooth operation of our cities and surrounds. By doing such it drives further engagement in cities through workplaces, employees, and commerce and allowing for economical growth.
Investing in public transport should not be viewed as needing a direct ROI, from the transport, rather through economic growth taxes.

It's the same argument for "real" free 3rd level, as opposed to our "free" 3rd level but €3000 registration fees (2nd highest in EU and 1st after brexit). Invest in youth education to reap the benefits 10 years later through increased PAYE/PRSI and entrepreneurs succeeding in business.


Outside Dublin the tolls were put on Motorways, to allow for a PPP build, and there is no issue with this, BUT the motorways were supposed to be in place to allow for goods transport away from towns/villages, as a safety issue alongside cutting travel time.
HGV should not have to pay tolls on the motorway network IMHO. It will stop the diversion and danger they bring to population centres.

Also, no way in hell should there by 3 tolls from Cork to Dublin airport. It's a 250km stretch and really excessive, considering Belfast Dublin has 1

Charles Babbage

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, no way in hell should there by 3 tolls from Cork to Dublin airport. It's a 250km stretch and really excessive, considering Belfast Dublin has 1

If all of the route to Belfast was motorway and you had to pay another €2, a lot of people would regard that as a reasonable price.



As for the M50, a person using it from the Northside should be able to park at a park n ride and get an express bus to Sandyford for the same cost as the toll.

donvito99

Deleted User wrote: »

The only congestion in Fermoy/Rathcormac/Watergrasshill is caused by a toll and is traffic meant to use the motorway to bypass these places.

Esoecially dangerous heavy goods traffic going to Cork or Dublin

So if we removed the M50 toll we would reduce congestion???

Sleeper12

Deleted User wrote:

Also, no way in hell should there by 3 tolls from Cork to Dublin airport. It's a 250km stretch and really excessive, considering Belfast Dublin has 1

We're trying to keep the Cork people out

donvito99

donvito99 wrote: »

So if we removed the M50 toll we would reduce congestion???

Did I say the M50?

Tomrota

magicbastarder wrote: »

it would be interesting to see how many people use the m50 but don't actually cross the bridge; i used to work on a team of seven people out in sandyford; i was the only person not to drive to the office. the other six did, and none of them hit the toll. which obviously unfair on those who do use the M50 and do pay a toll simply through a geographic accident. they're using a facility they are paying for, stuck behind a car which may not have paid for the same facility.

however, there is that question about the knock on effects of blanket tolling on the M50, what happens the surrounding areas if people bail out onto surrounding roads. it's using a stick without providing any carrots for people to find actual alternatives to driving.

If the M50 toll was removed tomorrow, do you think usage would increase significantly? If there was a toll for entering/exiting the M50 for everyone, the usage probably wouldn’t be affected and people would just pay the toll, adding a further charge to get to work for everyone. Or people will just clog up the residential areas creating the worst congestion problems and more pollution in those areas.

If Dublin had an integrated and maintained public transport infrastructure like other European cities, people would actually see it as an option. Whenever I use the train/bus to go to UCD, it takes hours and hours and the train is always packed to capacity. It’s an awful experience, takes more time than driving, and I have to pay a lot for that service. Driving is way easier. This isn’t the case in many other Europeans cities, where there is actually a metro infrastructure that can get people around quickly and reliably. Dublin relies on buses and cars- one bad crash and the network is down.

In Amsterdam, travelling on public transport is so simple and enjoyable. In Dublin, it is unreliable, overcrowded, and reliant on buses. We need serious serious long term investment in the NETWORK. What’s the governments plan for the next 40 years? Knock down trees and gardens, making it even more over reliant on buses (and uglier) that aren’t serving the city well. And maybe tax people for using the main road with no plan to majorly increase capacity or expand the network.

It is a serious problem that people don’t really see because they don’t know any better.