Lead ban

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Still can be headed off at EU pass mind.
This is now going into the EU autocracy, as it was the EU parliament that rejected the LB proposal report.Which has now annoyed their holinesses of the EU comission.Who are now deciding to over rule both the EU parliment and finding of the report,and go it alone to bring in legislation!!!IOW fuk the democratic procedures and fuk your opinions in the EU parliment,they want this so it will happen!!!

So it would now behove us to point this fact out to our MEPs that they are just talking heads and have no power if those in the comission can override their procedures and consensus.

Someone might want to give NARGC and FACE a nudge on this point,while they enjoy their doze???
As well as the minor fact that the Irish MEPs they are palling about are NOT PRO GUN at all in Brussels?To wit O Sullivan (Green) Mc Guinness(FG)and the SF one whose name skips me at the moment ,but whose hubby likes singing "come out ye black&tans,"when he wins elections.Just because they are Irish does ot make them on our sides.

The eu doesn't have much to do with democracy, they have proved it time and time again. They have a parliament, which to me seems entirely toothless, they cannot propose or amend legislation, which is what a parliament is for, or was when i was at school. They have an unelected commission, staffed with political cronies, which meets in secret, who sets the agenda ? Tony Blair ? George Soros ? One of the Bilderbirger mob ?

Anyway from what i have seen recently, lapdog Verrucca getting a kick in the nuts last week over the budget, everyone else fighting over the carve up of money, and the Brits pulling out, if they don't get their act together very quickly the whole thing could unravel.


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2020/02/the-eu-is-in-trouble-and-ursula-von-der-leyen-is-the-wrong-person-to-rescue-it/

cavan shooter

tudderone wrote: »

The eu doesn't have much to do with democracy, they have proved it time and time again. They have a parliament, which to me seems entirely toothless, they cannot propose or amend legislation, which is what a parliament is for, or was when i was at school. They have an unelected commission, staffed with political cronies, which meets in secret, who sets the agenda ? Tony Blair ? George Soros ? One of the Bilderbirger mob ?

Anyway from what i have seen recently, lapdog Verrucca getting a kick in the nuts last week over the budget, everyone else fighting over the carve up of money, and the Brits pulling out, if they don't get their act together very quickly the whole thing could unravel.


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2020/02/the-eu-is-in-trouble-and-ursula-von-der-leyen-is-the-wrong-person-to-rescue-it/

Bit annoying that a shower of commercial shoots decide to back a ban. Are they deflecting that they are involved in mass slaughter of pheasants for profit. ****....

I'm pissed off as a rough shooter I'd maybe pop off a handful of shells in a season, these ****ers have enough lead on there land to open a ****ing mine, and they fare take the ****ing high chair and dictate.......privaledge counts the lot of them. I'm now very anti commercial shoots

tudderone

cavan shooter wrote: »

Bit annoying that a shower of commercial shoots decide to back a ban. Are they deflecting that they are involved in mass slaughter of pheasants for profit. ****....

I'm pissed off as a rough shooter I'd maybe pop off a handful of shells in a season, these ****ers have enough lead on there land to open a ****ing mine, and they fare take the ****ing high chair and dictate.......privaledge counts the lot of them. I'm now very anti commercial shoots

The thing is these shoots sell the game, and supermarkets that sell it on are telling them "No more lead shot birds". Anyway it wasn't the shoots, it was nine of the biggest shooting organisations in the UK. So don't be surprised if our lot do the same thing one morning out of the blue. Scovi or one of that lot of tossers.

cavan shooter

tudderone wrote: »

The thing is these shoots sell the game, and supermarkets that sell it on are telling them "No more lead shot birds". Anyway it wasn't the shoots, it was nine of the biggest shooting organisations in the UK. So don't be surprised if our lot do the same thing one morning out of the blue. Scovi or one of that lot of tossers.

It's something that the Sports Coalition Of Vested Interests would definitely support. They have already backed a ban on night time shooting and supported the unenforceable SI of lock your cartridges in a tesco bag. FFS Dim wits..

berettaman

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Still can be headed off at EU pass mind.
This is now going into the EU autocracy, as it was the EU parliament that rejected the LB proposal report.Which has now annoyed their holinesses of the EU comission.Who are now deciding to over rule both the EU parliment and finding of the report,and go it alone to bring in legislation!!!IOW fuk the democratic procedures and fuk your opinions in the EU parliment,they want this so it will happen!!!

So it would now behove us to point this fact out to our MEPs that they are just talking heads and have no power if those in the comission can override their procedures and consensus.

Someone might want to give NARGC and FACE a nudge on this point,while they enjoy their doze???
As well as the minor fact that the Irish MEPs they are palling about are NOT PRO GUN at all in Brussels?To wit O Sullivan (Green) Mc Guinness(FG)and the SF one whose name skips me at the moment ,but whose hubby likes singing "come out ye black&tans,"when he wins elections.Just because they are Irish does ot make them on our sides.

NARGC enjoy their doze?


I have to disagree with you there Grizly.

The NARGC have done a hell of a lot of work on this. The Chairman has built a consensus among different countries to resist this.

The REACH committee cancelled a vote because they were not sure that they would win it. That is a serious change from 12 months ago.

They made a serious impact at the ENVI committee. They have worked with shooting competitors/ ammo manufacturers and politicians.

A major spanner has been put in the works for the unstoppable juggarnaut of the lead ban.

I know you are pissed off but this is BASC screwing the rough shooter not NARGC dropping the ball!

cavan shooter

berettaman wrote: »

NARGC enjoy their doze?


I have to disagree with you there Grizly.

The NARGC have done a hell of a lot of work on this. The Chairman has built a consensus among different countries to resist this.

The REACH committee cancelled a vote because they were not sure that they would win it. That is a serious change from 12 months ago.

They made a serious impact at the ENVI committee. They have worked with shooting competitors/ ammo manufacturers and politicians.

A major spanner has been put in the works for the unstoppable juggarnaut of the lead ban.

I know you are pissed off but this is BASC screwing the rough shooter not NARGC dropping the ball!

In fairness BASC were never a rough shooting organisation. Surprised that CAI would row in too. Proof that money talks.

Asus1

In the uk they release around 30 million pheasants a year shooting over 20 million of them (figures got off internet).With that amount of birds shot the shooting organisations were always at the behest of what the supermarkets who bought the birds told them,and that was they didn't want lead shot birds.
Lets be honest what they do re pheasant shooting in the uk is a million miles away from what the local gunclub does here.The whole pomp and ceremony is something i dont get but each to their own.Some off the estate's over there could surely start mining for lead with the amount of shooting done.

tudderone

The Green meanies will be jumping up and down now looking for it here. Its no good just being green, you have to be greener than everyone else and show it. They are an international movement.

ZiabR

My view on this is that if moving to steel shot, protects my sport for many years to come and gets people off my back than I am in support of it.

The UKs Hunting and Sporting industry is many times the size of Irelands and if they have all come together collectively to agree that for the health of the sport and to become a little greener, a move to steel shot is needed in the next 5 years then I don't really see what the issue is. (I will probably get destroyed for saying that)

As mentioned before, Denmark banned Lead Shot in shotguns in the 1990s, and they do just fine. It really does seem like people just don't like change and are set in their old ways, a little stubborn perhaps.

It is like many gunsmiths have said to date, there are many alternatives to Steel Shot and that nearly all guns will be able to shoot alternative shot types without any issues to guns or safety.

The Lead ban is not going to go away, instead of fighting what likely will be a losing battle, why not get behind the gun and ammunition manufactures and support the change so that the BEST possible alternatives can be found.

I know that high birds will become a problem for pure steel shot, but other alternatives are out there and new ones will come to market as more investment is made by the manufacturing companies. Moving away from Lead will happen and it can only be good if it helps protect our sport for generations to come.

In 10 years time, we will be wondering what all the fuss was about.

BattleCorp

ZiabR wrote: »

My view on this is that if moving to steel shot, protects my sport for many years to come and gets people off my back than I am in support of it.

The UKs Hunting and Sporting industry is many times the size of Irelands and if they have all come together collectively to agree that for the health of the sport and to become a little greener, a move to steel shot is needed in the next 5 years then I don't really see what the issue is. (I will probably get destroyed for saying that)

As mentioned before, Denmark banned Lead Shot in shotguns in the 1990s, and they do just fine. It really does seem like people just don't like change and are set in their old ways, a little stubborn perhaps.

It is like many gunsmiths have said to date, there are many alternatives to Steel Shot and that nearly all guns will be able to shoot alternative shot types without any issues to guns or safety.

The Lead ban is not going to go away, instead of fighting what likely will be a losing battle, why not get behind the gun and ammunition manufactures and support the change so that the BEST possible alternatives can be found.

I know that high birds will become a problem for pure steel shot, but other alternatives are out there and new ones will come to market as more investment is made by the manufacturing companies. Moving away from Lead will happen and it can only be good if it helps protect our sport for generations to come.

In 10 years time, we will be wondering what all the fuss was about.

So if they ban the use of lead ammunition here in Ireland, what do I use in my .22 for target shooting? I can't use steel shot in my rifle or pistol.

ayagerard

big changes on the way i am afraid to say , on another site the lads are talking about canceling their membership as a protest vote to the BASC and their equals voluntary lead ban by 2024 ??? some of the big shoots are charging from £200-£2000 A DAY S shooting the big supermarkets are paying £2 a bird hanging are they willing to pay £20 steel shot ???? maybe not but i don't think that any gun is going to pay a GRAND to give a day shooting birds at 25-30 yards YET ALONE HE IS WEARING JAMJARS , god be with george digweed when he would back up 30 yards from the 70 yard mark and 10 yards more till he missed one he is still alive and it would be nice to here his take on this crap , environmental you say ! lead is naturally found in the earth crops do not take up leads unless physically in the crop , very few people have died from lead or lead related illness in the last decade or too since the health and safety sorted out the lead mines which was a good thing,a lead ban on hunting seems acceptable to these twits but it is ok to have our armys shoot them selves with lead this i cant understand, why is it ok to shoot a human with lead and not an animal or bird , this i ask you to question . there is more wash off of lead from the roofs of houses in the uk than all of the shott or bullets in the world ????? , there are a 1000 times more people suffering the affects of chernobyl disaster 1986 than this lead issue in europe the world i would think , outside of china they have their own issues , until europe can offer a viable alternative which is not there at the moment they should channel all resources into finding alternatives like for like price for price rather than dictating and what looks like back door legislation on changing the cultures of other countries which they don't agree with .
democracy gone mad london is banning the burning of all coal and wet timber 20% moisture i think from 2023
all the money that has been squandered on these people educating them and time wasted and this is the best they can come up with https://b-static.net/vbulletin/images/icons/icon6.png

ZiabR

BattleCorp wrote: »

So if they ban the use of lead ammunition here in Ireland, what do I use in my .22 for target shooting? I can't use steel shot in my rifle or pistol.

For example in Denmark I don't believe they have banned lead in rifle/pistol. The Lead ban here relates to Shotgun Ammunition only.

BattleCorp

ZiabR wrote: »

For example in Denmark I don't believe they have banned lead in rifle/pistol. The Lead ban here relates to Shotgun Ammunition only.

Good luck with that. Our fcuking gob****es always gold plate any EU legislation.

For example, there was no requirement for the recent centrefire magazine ban (now a 10 round limit). They had the option to grandfather them or allow exemptions for certain competitions but they just banned them.

Also, it's lead use in wetlands, and most of Ireland qualifies as a wetland.

tudderone

BattleCorp wrote: »

So if they ban the use of lead ammunition here in Ireland, what do I use in my .22 for target shooting? I can't use steel shot in my rifle or pistol.

CCI do .22lr ammo at about 15 quid a box afaik, not cheap.

tudderone

BattleCorp wrote: »

Good luck with that. Our fcuking gob****es always gold plate any EU legislation.

For example, there was no requirement for the recent centrefire magazine ban (now a 10 round limit). They had the option to grandfather them or allow exemptions for certain competitions but they just banned them.

Also, it's lead use in wetlands, and most of Ireland qualifies as a wetland.

Did you hear the eu want to pass a law for people who use tractors, quads, and ride-on lawnmowers on private land, to be insured :rolleyes: ?

The land being classed as wetland suited farmers as they could claim more money in subsidies. Seeing as the eu has just done a trade deal with China and Brazil for their beef to be allowed into the eu, and there is going to be a reduction in subsidies, it hasn't worked out to well.

Grizzly 45

berettaman wrote: »

NARGC enjoy their doze?


I have to disagree with you there Grizly.

The NARGC have done a hell of a lot of work on this. The Chairman has built a consensus among different countries to resist this.

The REACH committee cancelled a vote because they were not sure that they would win it. That is a serious change from 12 months ago.

They made a serious impact at the ENVI committee. They have worked with shooting competitors/ ammo manufacturers and politicians.

A major spanner has been put in the works for the unstoppable juggarnaut of the lead ban.

I know you are pissed off but this is BASC screwing the rough shooter not NARGC dropping the ball!

What I am pissed off with has nothing to do with the UK orgs becoming a bunch of surrender monkeys,but with the fact that we are also supping with the devil in relying on three anti gun policy MEPs,just because they are Irish.Also does NARGC have a problem talking with other Orgs ?They seem to have one with FUNI?Because we reported this situation 3 weeks ago.

Asus1

Quick question has the banning of shooting wild fowl with lead shot over areas designated as steel only seen a large upsurge in more birds.Wasnt one of the reasons that lead was banned was that ducks and geese were eating lead and dying.I know other factors will be at play but has the steel over wetlands had a effect on numbers.

Croohur1

Only shotgun ammunition on live quarry has been mentioned here. What they have mentioned does not include rifle ammunition or shotgun clay cartridges. This is purely for live quarry.
I am not saying that your lead 22LR ammo isnt going to be next, but just to clarify, that isnt what this statement has said: "In consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad, we wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns"

tudderone

Croohur1 wrote: »

Only shotgun ammunition on live quarry has been mentioned here. What they have mentioned does not include rifle ammunition or shotgun clay cartridges. This is purely for live quarry.
I am not saying that your lead 22LR ammo isnt going to be next, but just to clarify, that isnt what this statement has said: "In consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad, we wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns"

Yes, thats correct, but the problem is the wally's here can now point to the UK and say "well they have banned lead, why can't we" ?. The issue here is so much land, perfectly usable land being officially classed as wetland. I know where my club is is classed as wetland, even if it is only slightly swampy during the winter. So if the eu ruling comes in, no clays could be shot there.

Half-cocked

tudderone wrote: »

Yes, thats correct, but the problem is the wally's here can now point to the UK and say "well they have banned lead, why can't we" ?. The issue here is so much land, perfectly usable land being officially classed as wetland. I know where my club is is classed as wetland, even if it is only slightly swampy during the winter. So if the eu ruling comes in, no clays could be shot there.

Plus, to a politician, the most simple and easy way to ban lead shot over wetlands and against live quarry is to ban the import of all lead shot. That way, no resources have to be used in policing and enforcement, because there's no lead shot out there.

Grizzly 45

Croohur1 wrote: »

Only shotgun ammunition on live quarry has been mentioned here. What they have mentioned does not include rifle ammunition or shotgun clay cartridges. This is purely for live quarry.
I am not saying that your lead 22LR ammo isnt going to be next, but just to clarify, that isnt what this statement has said: "In consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad, we wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns"

We noe have to de code which is being talked about.Are we talking about the UK or the EU??Because if we are talking about the EU directive.Its a TOTAL BAN on lead,In.Any.Shape.Or.Form.In Ammo.On.Wetlands .Or Ranges.Or Reloading
Or other.
Simply put the EU wants it gone completely,and Ireland would be especially badly hit because the EU definition of a "wetland" could cover any field with a damp patch on it the way it is currently worded.The Finnish shooting orgs are trying to push that it is any body of land that is prone to have a standing body of water for over 8 months of the year on it,which is a more logical definition.

The UK masss surrender by their main orgs is going to cost them dearly in membership and credence,but as the UK is departing the EU,it will be greatly irrevelant to us ,apart from the "well look at England..." type thinkers.Or worry and focus still must be on the EU diktat.

Grizzly 45

Half-cocked wrote: »

Plus, to a politician, the most simple and easy way to ban lead shot over wetlands and against live quarry is to ban the import of all lead shot. That way, no resources have to be used in policing and enforcement, because there's no lead shot out there.

They dont have to do anything!If the ammo makers arent going to be suplied with lead anymore,or cant aquire it,or there is no market for it....

tudderone

Some info for people with older game guns. Eley VIP Bismuth, a snip at £1,120 a thousand, Gamebore iron/tungsten matrix £2,200 a thousand :eek:.

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/a-voluntary-phase-out-of-lead-shot-


https://basc.org.uk/lead/

Grizzly 45

I'm sure they will have great sales with the Fudds and plus fours& tweed brigade,when they discover their Holand&Holland ,Purdey, etc that pater left them 50 years ago is not capable of using non lead shot.

Bismuth BTW is a by product of the lead industry,so you are pumping a lead by product into the wild which is proably just as damaging. At £1 per round in the UK for the best alternative for your vintage smoke pole,that will translate at about 1.15 euros per shotshell knowing Irish price gouging...

tudderone

I was talking to a lad in the UK, actually he is a gunsmith and big into CAS shooting. But the story is the anti's were pushing for a complete ban on lead in all forms of shooting over there. Basc etc decided that if they did this lead ban on game shooting, then the target sports would be left alone, as lead can be recovered from ranges reasonably easily, where as it cannot be in fields and farms.

ZiabR

Another video from Fieldsports. Section one focusing on the Lead Ban in the UK.

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

But the story is the anti's were pushing for a complete ban on lead in all forms of shooting over there. Basc etc decided that if they did this lead ban on game shooting, then the target sports would be left alone, as lead can be recovered from ranges reasonably easily, where as it cannot be in fields and farms.

As Gunny Sgt Hoffmann put it so eloquently in Full Metal Jacket "What is this?Holy Mary Mother of fkin CHRIST!WHAT IS THIS SHT???":mad::mad:
Do the Brits NEVER learn that compromising DOES NOT get you anything in shooting over in the UK??WT holy F is BASC doing at all???:mad::mad::mad:
In the last 18 months it has;

Supported and applauded a bumpstock ban in the UK,despite the UK not having a firearms system tht can use it since 1988.

Thrown MARS and lever release owners to the wolves of the Home office,and deprived numerous physically disabled shooters from a rifle ideally designed for their needs,but supported a minority of 50 cal BMG shooters instead.

Rolled over and with the other orgs,betrayed their members with aquiesing to a lead ban on the most spurious grounds of lead being a danger on agricultural land...Oh Pleeeeze...In that ccase how much and for how long has the EU been eating grain based and vegs harvested and grown off the former battlefields of WW1 in France??Where there is over est half a BILLON tonnes of lead ,copper ,and God alone knows what other toxic materials in those fields,from spent munitions??

This is a riicilous and spurious arguement that the Finns researched on their ranges.Unless you intend to grow veggies on the backstop of your local range ,or are going to eat 6ins worth of dirt off it,it is a non starter.In fact your veg garden back home,if it is near a public road,will have a higher lead concentrate from auto exhausts than any field shot with pellets.

Did they not see or bother in their arrogance to get out of the EU,that this is only ONE part of the ANMARA report?ANMARA recommends a total lead ban in shooting sports,right down to even reloading and casting your own ammo!

Muzzle loading is totally screwed and they dont even realise it,as there is NO substitute for their ammo at all.

If one was to compare this to great British military disasters,this rates as the fall of Singapore in 1942 to the Japanese,thru their own arrogance,stupidity and hubris.:mad:

Do they not understand as Churchill said"When you have your head in a tigers mouth,that this is not the time to neogiate terms":mad:

all in all this is more of a ruddy disaster than anyone over there or here realises for British shooting.The antis have now smelt blood if the above is true,and will be out on the ranges next demanding almost unworkable and expensive things done to remove lead off ranges...Wait and see.

At least the French in their shooting orgs are still fighting against this,and didnt throw each other to the wolves with the eU gun ban.So if anyone in the shooting world deserves the term Surrender monkeys..Its the British shooting orgs!:mad:


Seriously pissed off!
Grizzly

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As Gunny Sgt Hoffmann put it so eloquently in Full Metal Jacket "What is this?Holy Mary Mother of fkin CHRIST!WHAT IS THIS SHT???":mad::mad:
Do the Brits NEVER learn that compromising DOES NOT get you anything in shooting over in the UK??WT holy F is BASC doing at all???:mad::mad::mad:
In the last 18 months it has;

Supported and applauded a bumpstock ban in the UK,despite the UK not having a firearms system tht can use it since 1988.

Thrown MARS and lever release owners to the wolves of the Home office,and deprived numerous physically disabled shooters from a rifle ideally designed for their needs,but supported a minority of 50 cal BMG shooters instead.

Rolled over and with the other orgs,betrayed their members with aquiesing to a lead ban on the most spurious grounds of lead being a danger on agricultural land...Oh Pleeeeze...In that ccase how much and for how long has the EU been eating grain based and vegs harvested and grown off the former battlefields of WW1 in France??Where there is over est half a BILLON tonnes of lead ,copper ,and God alone knows what other toxic materials in those fields,from spent munitions??

This is a riicilous and spurious arguement that the Finns researched on their ranges.Unless you intend to grow veggies on the backstop of your local range ,or are going to eat 6ins worth of dirt off it,it is a non starter.In fact your veg garden back home,if it is near a public road,will have a higher lead concentrate from auto exhausts than any field shot with pellets.

Did they not see or bother in their arrogance to get out of the EU,that this is only ONE part of the ANMARA report?ANMARA recommends a total lead ban in shooting sports,right down to even reloading and casting your own ammo!

Muzzle loading is totally screwed and they dont even realise it,as there is NO substitute for their ammo at all.

If one was to compare this to great British military disasters,this rates as the fall of Singapore in 1942 to the Japanese,thru their own arrogance,stupidity and hubris.:mad:

Do they not understand as Churchill said"When you have your head in a tigers mouth,that this is not the time to neogiate terms":mad:

all in all this is more of a ruddy disaster than anyone over there or here realises for British shooting.The antis have now smelt blood if the above is true,and will be out on the ranges next demanding almost unworkable and expensive things done to remove lead off ranges...Wait and see.

At least the French in their shooting orgs are still fighting against this,and didnt throw each other to the wolves with the eU gun ban.So if anyone in the shooting world deserves the term Surrender monkeys..Its the British shooting orgs!:mad:


Seriously pissed off!
Grizzly

Thing is Grizz, it very easy to be generous with someone elses sport. These orgs wanted to do the big gesture and make the grand statements, but its not them who have the practical headaches of switching from lead. They threw a lot of people under the bus to virtue signal how green they are.

And it could happen here too very easily, one gang of plonkers announcing they want lead banned, scovi being one.

Grizzly 45

SCOVI could easily be shut down by a petition to the DOJ from shooters saying that this organisation of 5 people,if at that.no way repersents any Irish shooter or gun owner any more and that we collectively plead with the dept to remove them from the FCP as they have no mandate from Irish gunowners anymore.
Is anyone going to help belling this particular pussycat?....

Well the mainstream UK orgs are going to get a rude awkening on this one.There is already people quitting their membership and talk of sending a white feather[cowardice] in with their membership cancellations.For what they offer in insurance,you can get privately too in the UK at about the same or less if you shop about. This was the straw that broke the camels back now with many people...What are you paying annual dues for,if the org goes and sells you down the river seemingly at every given opportunity?

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

SCOVI could easily be shut down by a petition to the DOJ from shooters saying that this organisation of 5 people,if at that.no way repersents any Irish shooter or gun owner any more and that we collectively plead with the dept to remove them from the FCP as they have no mandate from Irish gunowners anymore.

Sounds like a plan.