Lead ban

Grizzly 45

dto001 wrote: »

Is there a list of these anywhere? so at least you can send a few emails or add them to a petition which could be put around europe to the hunting community as a whole. It might be late but as the old saying goes better late than never. we could sit back now and bitch and moan about it but at least we could go down kicking and screaming

Here's our shower for a start.:rolleyes: bunch of Greenies, and Lefties and
EU parliment cash checkers
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/ireland/en/your-meps

And here is the EU list of MEPS in Pdf ,by surname initials.:)

https://data.europa.eu/euodp/en/data/dataset/members-of-the-european-parliament

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/europe-votes-on-lead-restrictions

Bunch of asshats them:mad:. Not 6 months ago they were talking out the other side of their faces welcoming this development.https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/24/uk-hunting-groups-call-for-end-to-use-of-lead-ammunition-by-2025

The same bunch that welcomed a ban in the UK on "bump stocks"..Considering they have had nothing that one can be fitted to in the UK since post Hungerford in 1987:rolleyes::rolleyes:
A lot of UK shooters are waking up to the fact that all BASC is intrested in is members paying them for a comfortable lifestyle,and they compromise and bend the knee on eveerything to keep that status quo.:mad:

Brontosaurus

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Here's our shower for a start.:rolleyes: bunch of Greenies, and Lefties and
EU parliment cash checkers
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/ireland/en/your-meps

And here is the EU list of MEPS in Pdf ,by surname initials.:)

https://data.europa.eu/euodp/en/data/dataset/members-of-the-european-parliament

Maybe we could get template/draft with good info demonstrating how unworkable and pointless this bill is? Might be better than rants and ravings.

As for the issue of wetland designation, I've done a course on ecology before, here's a map app where you can toggle a habitat overlay:

https://maps.biodiversityireland.ie/Map

It's a bit sluggish and poorly laid out but it might be useful. Make sure you're zoomed in a fair bit, you won't be able to toggle it otherwise. It's called "Fossit Wetlands" under the "Habitats" tab. It seems to overlay ALL habitats regardless, so you'll have to figure out which habitats are wetland. They use codes for the website, you can click on the map to reveal what designation a habitat is rather than try and use the legend.

The codes correspond to Fossit's "A Guide to Habitats in Ireland": https://www.npws.ie/sites/default/files/publications/pdf/A%20Guide%20to%20Habitats%20in%20Ireland%20-%20Fossitt.pdf


It's a bit of a cludge to use, but it is what it is.

From what I remember this guide bases its classification on NPWS and EU definitions. I find it very strange that the EU has decided to base its classification of wetlands on the vague RAMSAR convention rather than the Habitats Directive.

Anyway, Fossit is used extensively in Ireland by NPWS, conservation groups and Consultancies doing assessments. It'll give a good general idea of how much of Ireland could be considered off-limits to anyone using leadshot. If the EU is sensible, which they aren't, this should only impact designated protected habitats and exclude what is considered "Improved Grassland", in other words arable land and fields used for amenities. Even then, some ranges are literally on wetlands, and I really do not think this legislation will do a lick of ****e for the environment.

Hope that's helpful anyway.

EDIT: Seems like the map doesn't give full coverage of the whole country

tudderone

Brontosaurus wrote: »

Maybe we could get template/draft with good info demonstrating how unworkable and pointless this bill is? Might be better than rants and ravings.

As for the issue of wetland designation, I've done a course on ecology before, here's a map app where you can toggle a habitat overlay:

https://maps.biodiversityireland.ie/Map

It's a bit sluggish and poorly laid out but it might be useful. Make sure you're zoomed in a fair bit, you won't be able to toggle it otherwise. It's called "Fossit Wetlands" under the "Habitats" tab. It seems to overlay ALL habitats regardless, so you'll have to figure out which habitats are wetland. They use codes for the website, you can click on the map to reveal what designation a habitat is rather than try and use the legend.

The codes correspond to Fossit's "A Guide to Habitats in Ireland": https://www.npws.ie/sites/default/files/publications/pdf/A%20Guide%20to%20Habitats%20in%20Ireland%20-%20Fossitt.pdf


It's a bit of a cludge to use, but it is what it is.

From what I remember this guide bases its classification on NPWS and EU definitions. I find it very strange that the EU has decided to base its classification of wetlands on the vague RAMSAR convention rather than the Habitats Directive.

Anyway, Fossit is used extensively in Ireland by NPWS, conservation groups and Consultancies doing assessments. It'll give a good general idea of how much of Ireland could be considered off-limits to anyone using leadshot. If the EU is sensible, which they aren't, this should only impact designated protected habitats and exclude what is considered "Improved Grassland", in other words arable land and fields used for amenities. Even then, some ranges are literally on wetlands, and I really do not think this legislation will do a lick of ****e for the environment.

Hope that's helpful anyway.

EDIT: Seems like the map doesn't give full coverage of the whole country

There is a small map of the european countries in the link below showing the ramsar wetlands. To be honest it looks as if more of Ireland is wetland than isn't. Certainly most of the western and midland counties.

https://ec.europa.eu/environment/archives/life/publications/lifepublications/lifefocus/documents/wetlands.pdf

Brontosaurus

tudderone wrote: »

There is a small map of the european countries in the link below showing the ramsar wetlands. To be honest it looks as if more of Ireland is wetland than isn't. Certainly most of the western and midland counties.

https://ec.europa.eu/environment/archives/life/publications/lifepublications/lifefocus/documents/wetlands.pdf

I was digging around and found the "Irish Ramsar Wetlands Commitee", and they had a link to this map of Irish wetlands: http://www.wetlandsurveysireland.com/wetlands/map-of-irish-wetlands--/map-of-irish-wetlands---map/index.html

Yeah, it's pretty much most of the country...

dto001

The only thing is that now that they have banned lead in wetland areas and Ireland is essentially wetland then surely compensation has to be made if you gun can't fire steel.

paulireland

When push comes to shove what are the practical alternatives if the ban comes in and what will the cost rises be

tudderone

paulireland wrote: »

When push comes to shove what are the practical alternatives if the ban comes in and what will the cost rises be

Copper, Bismuth, Tungsten matrix, steel, none work as well as plain old lead though. I would have thought steel shells would be cheaper, as steel is cheaper than lead, but the shot is probably harder to make. I see copper shot cartridges for about 15 euros a box, Bismuth is hugely expensive, over 40 euros a box of 25.

Grizzly 45

The utter irony being bismuth is a lead manufacturing byproduct seems lost on many "experts":rolleyes:

The only thing is that now that they have banned lead in wetland areas and Ireland is essentially wetland then surely compensation has to be made if you gun can't fire steel.

Probably not As they haven't banned your gun per se,and haven't banned you from owning a particular type either,they are jut banning what you shoot out of it.Plus it is possible with certain types of shotguns to get them steel proofed by getting the chokes opened up,so they can argue that you can possibly get your gun modified as well?[Ignoring the extra costs this makes for you of course]
However,a case could possibly made that because we here in Ireland dont [1] have a proof house and
[2] our restrictive gun laws will make it an extra burden and cost on getting them re choked and re proved outside the ROI,that EU assistance should be offered to help sort this problem out?

richiedel123

Just seen this floating about on facebook. If this is true we really need to start fighting

no_4

The alternatives to lead are very expensive
Steel can be 2x
Bismuth h6x
Titanium 10x ?

tudderone wrote: »

Copper, Bismuth, Tungsten matrix, steel, none work as well as plain old lead though. I would have thought steel shells would be cheaper, as steel is cheaper than lead, but the shot is probably harder to make. I see copper shot cartridges for about 15 euros a box, Bismuth is hugely expensive, over 40 euros a box of 25.

keith s

richiedel123 wrote: »

Just seen this floating about on facebook. If this is true we really need to start fighting

15 quid and on your way!

tudderone

They can sod off them and their 15 quid.

BattleCorp

richiedel123 wrote: »

Just seen this floating about on facebook. If this is true we really need to start fighting

keith s wrote: »

15 quid and on your way!

It has to be a fake.

tudderone

no_4 wrote: »

The alternatives to lead are very expensive
Steel can be 2x
Bismuth h6x
Titanium 10x ?

But will the price of steel fall dramatically when economies of scale kick in ? Few people are shooting steel because they don't really have to and therefore the manufacturers don't make so much of it, if everyone is forced to shoot it then they can make much more of it and the price should drop ? Or am i being naive ?

solarwinds

I would say fake, I do not see the need to involve the NPWS in a scheme for surrendering guns.

I see solid copper being talked about a lot as a substitute for hunting rounds, problem is copper is very toxic to aquatic life. So by the time they have removed lead completely and we are using copper rounds, guess what that will also be banned in wetlands.

hiddenmongoose

What about deer stalking in open peaty grounds like in Donegal Mayo etc, surely that will be wetland too technically, are we ment go to copper solids now too. absolutely ridiculous

GooseB

What about deer stalking in open peaty grounds like in Donegal Mayo etc, surely that will be wetland too technically, are we ment go to copper solids now too. absolutely ridiculous

Going by the maps referred to earlier, it won't really matter where you go, the entire country will be a wetland more or less. I was told the 10th of October was when the next change is being put forward or discussed. That's on the banning of lead from all ammunition for civilian use everywhere in the EU.

So yes, you'll have to use copper solids or some alternative but no lead. It'll be for shotguns for not just hunting but for them all like for shooting clays, indoor air pistols, hunting deer, target shooting, the whole shebang. And everything written about it that I can find is biased towards banning lead. So many articles claiming "lead alternatives are around for years, are easily available, are better than lead", etc, etc. I watched a Youtube video by 22Plinkster on copper .22lr ammo and his groups at 25 yards were worse than mine at 50 metres, it's crap. And dearer.

Grizzly 45

richiedel123 wrote: »

Just seen this floating about on facebook. If this is true we really need to start fighting

FAKE NEWS!!!
Someone taking the urine..Would have to be AGS handling something like this. Plus it has to be market value in good times.

Grizzly 45

GooseB wrote: »

Going by the maps referred to earlier, it won't really matter where you go, the entire country will be a wetland more or less. I was told the 10th of October was when the next change is being put forward or discussed. That's on the banning of lead from all ammunition for civilian use everywhere in the EU.

So yes, you'll have to use copper solids or some alternative but no lead. It'll be for shotguns for not just hunting but for them all like for shooting clays, indoor air pistols, hunting deer, target shooting, the whole shebang. And everything written about it that I can find is biased towards banning lead. So many articles claiming "lead alternatives are around for years, are easily available, are better than lead", etc, etc. I watched a Youtube video by 22Plinkster on copper .22lr ammo and his groups at 25 yards were worse than mine at 50 metres, it's crap. And dearer.

Remember ,Its "granted planning permission" not a completed building for a long while yet on both shotgun and other ammo.. Not to mind the first few cases going to the EU court of human rights with this reverse onous of proof of innocence clause by the 1st person arrested in Ireland for having lead shot in his possesion 100 meters from a heavy rainfall puddle in a field.:rolleyes:
Those points have to be dumped from the legislation,and our people,pro hunting and shooting groups and MEPs need to be in on this at all stages .

tudderone

GooseB wrote: »

Going by the maps referred to earlier, it won't really matter where you go, the entire country will be a wetland more or less. I was told the 10th of October was when the next change is being put forward or discussed. That's on the banning of lead from all ammunition for civilian use everywhere in the EU.

So yes, you'll have to use copper solids or some alternative but no lead. It'll be for shotguns for not just hunting but for them all like for shooting clays, indoor air pistols, hunting deer, target shooting, the whole shebang. And everything written about it that I can find is biased towards banning lead. So many articles claiming "lead alternatives are around for years, are easily available, are better than lead", etc, etc. I watched a Youtube video by 22Plinkster on copper .22lr ammo and his groups at 25 yards were worse than mine at 50 metres, it's crap. And dearer.

I was watching this the other day, ok for lads knocking the odd few deer throughout the season, maybe using a box of ammo for the whole lot, but anyone shooting target, or a lot of foxes, it could get expensive real quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7HAkJJfusI

keith s

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, however (as I put on my tinfoil hat), this thing sticks of a well thought out plan to remove firearms from people.

Step 1: Ban lead in wetlands
Step 2: Completey ban lead
Step 3: Remove all firearms that are only able to use lead (no justification for your request to possess that firarm, as per the requirements of your application for a licence for that firearms).

Step 4: Look at next type of ammo that can be classified as toxic / hazardous.
....
.....


The perposal is riddled with holes.
Have they done autopsies on birds that where found dead (not shot) where it was proved that lead poisoning had killed them, and that the lead that poisoned them was in fact from shotguns?

How did such a half baked, wishy washy definition of "wetlands" weigh-in to a legislative consideration that has such drastic measure.

JohnFitz2332

F**k. Right, I'm gonna see if I can get my ammo limit increased to 100k rounds per firearm

no_4

It’s a fair question but another factor is that people are sfraid to use steel in older guns and even in newer guns you can’t use chokes tighter than half


quote="tudderone;114527988"]But will the price of steel fall dramatically when economies of scale kick in ? Few people are shooting steel because they don't really have to and therefore the manufacturers don't make so much of it, if everyone is forced to shoot it then they can make much more of it and the price should drop ? Or am i being naive ?[/quote]

tudderone

no_4 wrote: »

It’s a fair question but another factor is that people are sfraid to use steel in older guns and even in newer guns you can’t use chokes tighter than half

Which is pretty useless for wildfowling :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Another good argument against the lead ban. Shotgun ammo is HARD lead, not soft lead like in petrol or paints and is very insoluble even with hydrochloric acid.

Counterarrangement to the #ban on lead
Bullet lead is - unlike lead in gasoline, paints and drinking water pipes - hard lead. Solid lead, which is also coated with a layer of lead after a very short time, is difficult to lock even with concentrated hydrochloric acid, whose pH is not even close to being reached in the stomachs of sea eagles, and therefore not absorbable for the body.
It is therefore still the question of which lead intake in the water birds leads to lead poisoning: the solid lead of the lead red (or the old burdens from two world wars) or the dissolved lead in cereals, vegetables, lead-containing drinking water pipes etc.
The number of hundred thousand birds that died from lead poisoning sounds horrible, but is small knowing that 90 million birds in Europe are dying of glass panes and 500 million are killed by free range domestic cats or alone in Germany 2 million in power lines and hundreds of thousands of wind turbines.
The numbers may vote for lead-burdened birds. One probably assumes an average of 3,5 % of a population. But not that they die of lead themselves and die as agonizing as in the animal experiments, which are led as a study.
Birds become much more prey by predators or hunters or die from another disease as early as possible. For example, the causal lead load is often found when the
Cause of death not recognized at all.
Image source from this study:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147189
#EUAmmoBan

cavan shooter

As someone with 3 guns that won't fire steel and can't afford to replace them, this is a pain in the ass and I'm hoping something will get sorted. Standard steel shot won't kill at 30 yards. High performance steel shot wont/can't be used in my gun of vintage 2001/1979/1971. That leaves me with a choice of using bismuth at £39.0 for a box of 30g 6s or giving up shooting.

tudderone

cavan shooter wrote: »

As someone with 3 guns that won't fire steel and can't afford to replace them, this is a pain in the ass and I'm hoping something will get sorted. Standard steel shot won't kill at 30 yards. High performance steel shot wont/can't be used in my gun of vintage 2001/1979/1971. That leaves me with a choice of using bismuth at £39.0 for a box of 30g 6s or giving up shooting.

I think a lot of lads are in the same boat, i certainly am. Its not that i cannot afford to replace the shotguns i have, but i have the guns i own for years, why should i get rid of them because some pox-doctors clerk in brussels says so ?

hiddenmongoose

cavan shooter wrote: »

or giving up shooting.

This is the real outcome they want ... nothing to do with reducing lead, as if it were there are bigger fish than us to be considered. Stealth anti firearms legislation is all it is.

Grizzly 45

All is not lost ...Yet! there are also Lead Alloys that could be used and are acceptable once we figure out how or why the EU wont accept them either,yet will accept bismuth?

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

All is not lost ...Yet! there are also Lead Alloys that could be used and are acceptable once we figure out how or why the EU wont accept them either,yet will accept bismuth?

Because they are devious toerags that want guns gone and if you cannot get the guns, get the ammo thats used in them. Copper could be an alternative, i'd rather try to squeeze that down the barrels than steel. Not cheap either but not silly money like Bismuth.

https://ardeesports.com/products/eley-zenith-32gr

Rows Grower

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/rural-life/gun-owners-facing-2000-bill-over-proposed-rules-on-lead-ammunition-39519488.html

no_4

Def not cheap! And what about us poor trap shooters, you can go through 5-6 boxes of an afternoons sport, at the minute that’s costing bout 40€, not many can afford that level of expense using the “alternatives to lead”

tudderone wrote: »

Because they are devious toerags that want guns gone and if you cannot get the guns, get the ammo thats used in them. Copper could be an alternative, i'd rather try to squeeze that down the barrels than steel. Not cheap either but not silly money like Bismuth.

https://ardeesports.com/products/eley-zenith-32gr

BattleCorp

tudderone wrote: »

Because they are devious toerags that want guns gone and if you cannot get the guns, get the ammo thats used in them. Copper could be an alternative, i'd rather try to squeeze that down the barrels than steel. Not cheap either but not silly money like Bismuth.

https://ardeesports.com/products/eley-zenith-32gr

Leeching from copper isn't great for the environment either. It can affect certain organisms much worse than lead.

tudderone

no_4 wrote: »

Def not cheap! And what about us poor trap shooters, you can go through 5-6 boxes of an afternoons sport, at the minute that’s costing bout 40€, not many can afford that level of expense using the “alternatives to lead”

Its a bit like the guards and the reloading scheme in the midlands, "expense is not a reason for wanting to reload". If you are like Phil Hogan taking home 300k a year and expenses of all kinds, you don't care.

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/rural-life/gun-owners-facing-2000-bill-over-proposed-rules-on-lead-ammunition-39519488.html

Oh...That shower finally woke up then,when its all too late???:rolleyes::rolleyes:

And go and complain to the wrong person and dept... Ye should have been bothering your EU hero Phil Hogan,before he decided on a nice game of golf there recently..Sorry lads no EU grants for you on this either. Go back to sleep with you.:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

Its a bit like the guards and the reloading scheme in the midlands, "expense is not a reason for wanting to reload". If you are like Phil Hogan taking home 300k a year and expenses of all kinds, you don't care.

Although reloading IMHO doesnt save you anything anymore in ammo costs.

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Although reloading IMHO doesnt save you anything anymore in ammo costs.

I was watching "Life below zero" last night and there was a fella reloading rifle ammo, looked a whopper of a round. He said a box of 20 factory rounds were 60 bucks, where as he could reload a round for 1.50.

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Oh...That shower finally woke up then,when its all too late???:rolleyes::rolleyes:

And go and complain to the wrong person and dept... Ye should have been bothering your EU hero Phil Hogan,before he decided on a nice game of golf there recently..Sorry lads no EU grants for you on this either. Go back to sleep with you.:rolleyes:

I thought FG were the party of the farmer ? Threw them under the bus there didn't they ?

Grizzly 45

FACE statement on the ban

https://www.face.eu/2020/09/statement-of-the-face-general-assembly-on-the-decision-of-the-reach-committee/?fbclid=IwAR3jGmvLX1qCnh1kcASUg0LMHoyfw5I9msqGuoD9xpTV1_mb71Hx3vUFnAI

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

I was watching "Life below zero" last night and there was a fella reloading rifle ammo, looked a whopper of a round. He said a box of 20 factory rounds were 60 bucks, where as he could reload a round for 1.50.

Factor in here in Europe;
All the legislation you could be required to comply with on storage of powder,that could range from being allowed to load at your kitchen table,[best option]to having to do it in a container on a range miles from anywhere...To building a factory standard H&S and all the rest under Irish legislation[worst option]. Yes there is legislation that allows for the manufacture of ammo here,but on an industrial scale only.

Storage requirements,and importing the powder will proably cost more than a pallet of your fav ammo.

Buying the equipment,doing no doubt an EU mandatory course on 95% law 5% on how to load a bullet
After all that your first bulet has proably cost 40 euros!!!:D

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Factor in here in Europe;
All the legislation you could be required to comply with on storage of powder,that could range from being allowed to load at your kitchen table,[best option]to having to do it in a container on a range miles from anywhere...To building a factory standard H&S and all the rest under Irish legislation[worst option]. Yes there is legislation that allows for the manufacture of ammo here,but on an industrial scale only.

Storage requirements,and importing the powder will proably cost more than a pallet of your fav ammo.

Buying the equipment,doing no doubt an EU mandatory course on 95% law 5% on how to load a bullet
After all that your first bulet has proably cost 40 euros!!!:D

Yes, but thats just obstructionist nonsense. "Yes you can do it, but we'll make it so difficult,you will not bother". Its a nasty way of operating, and can the ptb/eu continue to piss off people who are responsible and law abiding ? They have done just that with 7 million shooters in Europe.

Grizzly 45

Most EU countries allow reloading in some shape or form. This is just a typical "Irish solution to an Irish problem". This was supposed to be reviewed even when the big Mayo chicken AKA Enda Kenny was elected back into power...12 years ago.:(

Yeah,thats another 7million Euro skeptics joining the ranks with this.

yubabill

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

FACE statement on the ban

https://www.face.eu/2020/09/statement-of-the-face-general-assembly-on-the-decision-of-the-reach-committee/?fbclid=IwAR3jGmvLX1qCnh1kcASUg0LMHoyfw5I9msqGuoD9xpTV1_mb71Hx3vUFnAI

So, if you have lead shot in your pocket within either 100 or 200 metres of water, you are presumed to be using it over wetland.

Habeas Corpus (presumption of innocence) started with Magna Carta, but it looks like the EU must have dropped it as part of the Brexit negotiations.

Grizzly 45

Cant wait for the first cases on this in court...

Dai John

I have a Yildiz auto and contacted them. Although no Fluer de lys proof marks the gun is good for steel but no tighter than half choke is advised. Watched a test on U tube and they used an old English gun after 250 rounds, no barrel damage, it seems to be a question of chokes. More to the point, how much are steel catridges ?

no_4

Half choke or less is always the advice
Worth looking up the cartridge pressures also
Cost wise the cheapest steel will be 2-3 x more exp compared with lead

Dai John wrote: »

I have a Yildiz auto and contacted them. Although no Fluer de lys proof marks the gun is good for steel but no tighter than half choke is advised. Watched a test on U tube and they used an old English gun after 250 rounds, no barrel damage, it seems to be a question of chokes. More to the point, how much are steel catridges ?

tudderone

But will it be effective ? I was talking to a lad who shoots a lot of wildfowl and he reckons steel is pure muck on live game. Hitting birds and they fly on, wounding, runners etc. Steel tends to pass on through the body of a bird rather than dumping its energy like lead does.

tudderone

yubabill wrote: »

So, if you have lead shot in your pocket within either 100 or 200 metres of water, you are presumed to be using it over wetland.

Habeas Corpus (presumption of innocence) started with Magna Carta, but it looks like the EU must have dropped it as part of the Brexit negotiations.

Who is going to enforce it ? Can they come onto private land and search your person ? If i was on private land and someone approached me and told me to turn out my pockets, they would be told what stop to get off at very quickly :mad:.

Grizzly 45

Exactly...You can make as many laws as you want. Enforcing them on the ground is a different matter. Without a doubt , estuaries, foreshore,rivers&lakes under state control. Your private ground...Be interesting alright.:)