Lead ban

no_4

Much as I dislike the parasites, sorry the legal profession, I See legal challenge and lobbying as the only way of slowing it down, in the words of the industry insider referred to earlier

Legally
The original excuse for it was wetland environment and wildfowl poisoning, well there is very poor evidence for them there so they deliberately made the definition of a wetland as broad as possible that’s number 1. So Crowdfund an Eu wide legal challenge with dozens of shooting and hunting organisations in it together? It has never been easier to create a mass movement in rapid quick time.

Secondly the very act of banning lead without a viable, economic alternative has to be challenged, as in effect it means that you are banning shooting or at least recreational shooting.
What a next , how hard would it be for them to raise the licence from 80 quid for 3 years to sky’s the limit?

We know in certain parts of the west for example, some very ‘efficient’ superintendents barely wait a month after a licence has lapsed before they confiscate old shotguns
I have seen a gun shop with a cage full of old shotguns, and even newer Tikka and Sako S destined for the saw.

Thirdly The farming lobby are bloody powerful scross Europe, and may well be useful, what farmer will gladly pay 50 quid a box to take care of foxes , badgers, vermin etc. I would for certain Add them into an EU wide challenge?

If they were really interested in the environmental arguments they could ban plastic wads overnight in favour of fibre wads.

hiddenmongoose wrote: »

What if anything can we do ?

Grizzly 45

no_4 wrote: »

M

. So Crowdfund an Eu wide legal challenge with dozens of shooting and hunting organisations in it together? It has never been easier to create a mass movement in rapid quick time.

Proably will happen,but by a country,like the East blockers, rather than individual organisations,as they can throw up and accept those costs easier and go thru the process quicker

Secondly the very act of banning lead without a viable, economic alternative has to be challenged, as in effect it means that you are banning shooting or at least recreational shooting

.

'Cept there are in the eyes of Govts and orgs and groups,an alternative to lead in this case,namely steel,copper,tombak,etc already exists.whether it is afordable or wrecks your barrels is moot to them.It's not like lead is the ONLY material that can be used ,and this is where we have the uphill arguement.

What a next , how hard would it be for them to raise the licence from 80 quid for 3 years to sky’s the limit?

THAT is the one of the things that got us organised and bolshie 15 years ago when I was a newbie here on boards when the liscense fee went up:D:D
So I doubt they will go there.

We know in certain parts of the west for example, some very ‘efficient’ superintendents barely wait a month after a licence has lapsed before they confiscate old shotguns
I have seen a gun shop with a cage full of old shotguns, and even newer Tikka and Sako S destined for the saw.

While I sympathise with this problem.You do have 3 months time to get the paperwork in to re new. Now,if it is a case of them leaving the application sitting in the IN tray under the copy of the stations Playboy mag,and then saying it was never recived therefore we are confiscating it as being unliscensed...Thats a different story.

Thirdly The farming lobby are bloody powerful scross Europe, and may well be useful, what farmer will gladly pay 50 quid a box to take care of foxes , badgers, vermin etc. I would for certain Add them into an EU wide challenge?

Being a farmer in Europe,does not automatically equate you with being a gun owner. They have different liscensing for owning firearms and hunting rights.Both are utterly seperate entities.You dont own the sporting rights to your land like here.That is owned by the local group of hunters who lease the shooting rights off the community.So you as a farmer have the right to claim compo of them if say, a herd of wild boar demolish your corn or spud crop,or you have a fox raiding your chicken farm.

Appeal to the hunting organisations,they might be small to the pouplation,but they punch well above their political weight class.Something we are learning in Ireland,but need to practise alot more,and not be shy about getting on the streets too.The French and German hunters are on the streets at the drop of a hat.Even the police like dealing with their demos,as they are the most disiplined with the least hassle.

If they were really interested in the environmental arguments they could ban plastic wads overnight in favour of fibre wads

.
Give them time,and with bio degradeable plastic, it will become less an issue.

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

We're too small a group to be bothered with. If you factor out farmers as gun owners, who generally are only concerned with firearms as a tool. The fact that most of the rest own multiple firearms, i certainly do, so how many of us are there really ? 10,000 ? 15,000 ? We can safely be thrown under the bus and Leonara or Mehole or whoever it will be can go in front of the gullible public and whitter on about being green and how good this lead ban will be for the environment, wildlife and public health.

Except when it is election time..Remember how FG were all over us with the public Dail inquiry? Election year that... Then we were ignored or can kicked. Ok say at worst there is 10k worth of us.If that was a protest vote to say ..God help us ...Shin Fein,that could be damageing in a knife-edge election which I reckon the next one will be anyway...

The farmers you get them mobilised by unfortunatly two things[1] They will lose money [2] They will gain money.:( [1] Ye are going to have to buy new guns lads!That 150 year old yoke behind the back door will have to be tested and it will cost ya!"[Which is already being played] [2] The rest of Europe will be behind you if you push the Govt for a grant or payment to get new ones![Which will happen once X million EU gunowners start looking for compo for now useless guns to be either replaced or rebarrelled.

tudderone

no_4 wrote: »

You can walk in to any builders merchants and buy rolls of lead for roofing etc, I did this myself in June when replacing lead around a bad chimney 23 kgs worth for about 70quid

Supposed to be all gone by 2018. That said solder with lead in it is supposed to be gone, i've tried to buy it here and no joy, but ebay Uk is full of it.

keith s

I'm in a 22lr rifle club, we use only sub or standard (1050fps I think) ammo, as to reduce noise and they tend to be more accurate, which is the desire in target shooting.
The alternatives to lead rounds are all very much over that speed.

We also have full catchments for the fired rounds, so no lead gets in to the earth.

Any investments we've made in the range, our rifles and setup/accessories (scopes and other glass, clothing.... ) will essentially be down the drain, it's not even like we could sell them on.

The current perposal doesn't care about any firearm holders, in fact it's like they are giving us the finger.

The money spent on everything to do with the sport and the chuck of change the government take from it, probably does not bother them, as we will inevitably move along and choose another sport or hobby to spend our money on.

I be more inclined to save that money and (when everythings calmed down with COVID), feck off to the States for a few range days or plan a hunting trip abroad.

no_4

[
The money spent on everything to do with the sport and the chuck of change the government take from it, probably does not bother them, as we will inevitably move along and choose another sport or hobby to spend our money on.


They expect we will just buy the more expensive alternatives and tax the hell out of it.


I be more inclined to save that money and (when everythings calmed down with COVID), feck off to the States for a few range days or plan a hunting trip abroad.[/quote]

Not really an option for most of us.

tudderone

Interesting article on the subject of lead shot in the Field magazine.

https://www.thefield.co.uk/news/lead-shot-43779

keith s

"They expect we will just buy the more expensive alternatives and tax the hell out of it."

Yeah, it's already an expensive sport, especially if you're at it a bit to get the practice in.
Plus there are no alternatives for sub sonic or standard velocity lead ammo in 22lr.

=====================================

"Not really an option for most of us"

Like ordinarily it would be well out of my budget, but if I didn't get to enjoy the sport here, I would save the money I would normally spend on ammo, entering and travelling to competitions, bits and bobs, even if it took two years I'd spend my money elsewhere.

I know that's not great thinking, spending the money in another country, but I can be stubborn like that. If they take it from us I would do everything I could, not to give them anything back.

Think of the dealers here that would have no market (not because I would spend my money abroad), because the sport (hunting and target) would take such a hit it could probably cost a few of the smaller shops to shut.
===================================

tudderone

The Norwegians repealed the lead shot ban in 2015 for everywhere apart from ranges (indoor ranges maybe ?) and Wetlands. The ban was originally pushed through by an association of vets. When repealed "The parliament found the extreme warnings made by the lead ban lobby exaggerated and not trustworthy".

"A Swedish study states that 100 years of hunting with lead shotgun
ammunition will leave only one lead pellet pr. 25m2 in woodlands and pr.
100m2 in mountains".

Quick everyone stop shooting, and run around waving your hands in the air. One pellet in an area 5 metres by 5 metres, how will mother nature survive ?


https://www.leadinammunition.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/5a-Larsen.pdf

Grizzly 45

We'd better quit eating French and Belgian produce too.Considering how much lead and other crap there is on the former ww1 battlefields that are now agricultural fields again.:rolleyes:

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

We'd better quit eating French and Belgian produce too.Considering how much lead and other crap there is on the former ww1 battlefields that are now agricultural fields again.:rolleyes:

The "Iron Harvest". They have teams going around constantly collecting or dealing with ww1 ordinance. Thats just the big stuff, artillery shells etc, if 50-60 million shells were fired during the battle of Verdun, how many machine gun and rifle bullets ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqMOjpFH6g8

Interesting the civil guard armed with pistols just to dispose of old shells ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GNH-douids

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

We'd better quit eating French and Belgian produce too.Considering how much lead and other crap there is on the former ww1 battlefields that are now agricultural fields again.:rolleyes:

The Belgian part of the WWI Western front, bar a few cemeteries and memorials is probably among the most intensively farmed land in Europe.

On a side note, compared to current and historical industrial pollution what would the proportion of civilian lead ammo in the total lead pollution in the EU be ? A few million parts of one percent ? I don’t know but it would be interesting to find out and I for one would not be surprised to find that it’s completely insignificant.

tudderone

meathstevie wrote: »

The Belgian part of the WWI Western front, bar a few cemeteries and memorials is probably among the most intensively farmed land in Europe.

On a side note, compared to current and historical industrial pollution what would the proportion of civilian lead ammo in the total lead pollution in the EU be ? A few million parts of one percent ? I don’t know but it would be interesting to find out and I for one would not be surprised to find that it’s completely insignificant.

Its a Trojan horse to limit civilian gun ownership by the EU commission, thats all.

paulireland

Good grief Tudder do you ever sleep:)

hiddenmongoose

The vote went ahead today and was passed. the lead ban will effectively end shooting as we know it

hiddenmongoose

Deleted post as it posted twice for some reason

GooseB

Anyone have any updates on the result? All I could find was that there was a Webex meeting on this this morning where they voted. I Googled but couldn't find anything about it except from Birdwatch Ireland's Twitter -

"Delighted to learn that Minister
@MalcolmNoonan1
stepped up for #Ireland, for people and for birds today by voting with other EU Member States to prohibit the use of #leadshot over wetlands in Europe. Viable alternatives have been available to #shooters for years."

And "Lead is poisonous. To animals, to nature, and to people. It must go. We'll be campaigning to completely #BanLead also outside of wetlands. The
@EU_ECHA
is already at work assessing a full ban. #EUBiodiversity #EUGreenDeal"

So it was voted in favour of but what exactly? Were there amendments made? Timeframe for it to come into effect - 2 or 3 years? Lead shot or also lead in bullets? etc.

GooseB

The vote went ahead today and was passed. the lead ban will effectively end shooting as we know it

Was writing my post as this was being posted so didn't see it until afterwards.

hiddenmongoose

GooseB wrote: »

So it was voted in favour of but what exactly? Were there amendments made? Timeframe for it to come into effect - 2 or 3 years? Lead shot or also lead in bullets? etc.

That hasnt been clear yet. it is a serious blow for shooting though

dto001

Is there anywhere you can find out about the vote? ie see what it was passed by?

tudderone

Is anyone really surprised it passed ? I am certainly not, saddened but not surprised. Our lot of lickspittles were always going to vote for it, anything for a pat on the head off the EU. TBH i'll make my own shot and tip on with lead.

no_4

As we expected, they will not stop there, a full ban is what they want

hiddenmongoose

no_4 wrote: »

As we expected, they will not stop there, a full ban is what they want

Of course, sure it is simply an underhanded anti firearms legislation, nothing to do with the environment.



The fact that the minister who was responsible for voting on Ireland's behalf was a Green party loony definitely didn't help us.

tudderone

no_4 wrote: »

As we expected, they will not stop there, a full ban is what they want

84% of the Irish love the eu, so we are told, shure thats the place the free money comes from. They are undemocratic and no one here cares a tinkers curse, so long as they have money to buy the latest Audi :mad:.

GooseB

I asked an ammunition manufacturer a while back if they were doing any lobbying against this (I said I was a rimfire shooter only). A reply this morning, probably before the voting and that I only saw this evening said that today's vote was mainly dealing with "the ban of lead shot in wetlands. That doesn’t deal with our rimfire sport shooting issue. (O.K. indirectly yes, because it is the start of a long chain of restrictions against shooters.)

Our main problem, the ban of lead in all civil ammunition and all terrain (also called “full ban”) is currently under construction. It’s planned to be finalised on the 10th of October 2020."

hiddenmongoose

GooseB wrote: »

That doesn’t deal with our rimfire sport shooting issue.
"

Problem is all of Ireland could be classed wetland...the biggest range in the country(midlands) is in a bog ie wetland.

GooseB wrote: »

Our main problem, the ban of lead in all civil ammunition and all terrain (also called “full ban”) is currently under construction. It’s planned to be finalised on the 10th of October 2020."

Anti firearms to the core, nothing to do with the enviroment

tudderone

Anyway, the axe has fallen, where do we go from here ? Will there be exemptions ? I hear classic firearms owners in other countries can shoot lead, a bit like classic car owners were allowed to run their cars on leaded petrol.

keith s

GooseB wrote: »

I asked an ammunition manufacturer a while back if they were doing any lobbying against this (I said I was a rimfire shooter only). A reply this morning, probably before the voting and that I only saw this evening said that today's vote was mainly dealing with "the ban of lead shot in wetlands. That doesn’t deal with our rimfire sport shooting issue. (O.K. indirectly yes, because it is the start of a long chain of restrictions against shooters.)

."

The part of the perposal that minister Noonan read out, said something along the lines that, if a territory is made up of more than 20% wetland, that, that country would completely ban the sale and use of lead and phase it out within 3 years.

tudderone

keith s wrote: »

The part of the perposal that minister Noonan read out, said something along the lines that, if a territory is made up of more than 20% wetland, that, that country would completely ban the sale and use of lead and phase it out within 3 years.

I would imagine that there are few if any eu member states that would have less than 20% wetlands.

GooseB

https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regcomitology/index.cfm?do=search.documentdetail&Dos_ID=19885&DS_ID=64660&Version=6

If you follow the link above and then click on the word "Annex" at the bottom of that page you'll download a Word document with some details.

In short, it relates to shot as opposed to bullets (for the moment) and says:

"If at least 20 % in total of the territory, excluding the territorial waters, of a Member State are wetlands, that Member State may, in place of the restriction laid down in the first subparagraph of paragraph [20], prohibit the following acts throughout the whole of its territory from [Publications office - please fill in the date that is 36 months from entry into force of this amending Regulation]:
(a) the placing on the market of gunshot containing a concentration of lead (expressed as metal) equal to or greater than 1% by weight;
(b) the discharging of any such gunshot;
(c) carrying any such gunshot while out shooting or as part of going shooting."