Lead ban

TeaBagMania

screw that environmental garbage i say we move to depleted uranium shot

JohnFitz2332

oldgit1897 wrote: »

I see who is standing for election, and scratch out anyone fg, ff, labour, green or sf/ira. I see who is left, pick the most extreme either on the left or right and vote for them. The only way things will change is when those in power get a nasty shock. The sight of a load of communists or facists trotting into the dail might give them a rocket. Its happened in a lot of european countries in the last few years.

But as George Carlin says in the video below, it doesn't make a jot of difference who you vote for anyway, Ireland is bought and paid for and has been for a long time.

I'd be well up for a communist Dáil tbh

JohnFitz2332

Bob66 wrote: »

Agreed. Lead is bad.

It is toxic and has been accepted by humanity for a long time. Out of ignorance and habbit. It's what our Fathers used, our military used etc. People don't like change!, and react mostly negatively to something taken away from them. We feel like it's a personal infringement of our rights. Given time and education we soon become acustomised to the new alternatives. Who'd have thought 20 years ago that we'd be driving electric cars. Growing up I had to make a phone call from a yellow box on the street. Alternatives to lead commonly used today are 100% Copper, which is expensive & 95% Copper 5% Zinc. Which studies have shown to be superior to lead. I'm sure there are many more combinations of metals that will have the same effect we are all used to getting. But no matter what is chosen as the alternative, we are still dumping and polluting our environment. I'm as guilty as everybody else. I'd like to be part of positive change as a responsible shooter.

Footnote:
The downside initially to using alternative rounds is the cost. Manufacturers will need to recoup losses changing over from lead. Once everybody has made the change prices will come down as demand rises. Change is inevitable as is our ability to adapt to it.

Pretty much on board with you here. I wish the legislation was actually about environmentalism, but it's not. It's another way of attempting to disarm the public. Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the copper alternative to lead is also toxic, I think.

BryanL

Bob66 wrote: »

Agreed. Lead is bad.

It is toxic and has been accepted by humanity for a long time. Out of ignorance and habbit. It's what our Fathers used, our military used etc. People don't like change!, and react mostly negatively to something taken away from them. We feel like it's a personal infringement of our rights. Given time and education we soon become acustomised to the new alternatives. Who'd have thought 20 years ago that we'd be driving electric cars. Growing up I had to make a phone call from a yellow box on the street. Alternatives to lead commonly used today are 100% Copper, which is expensive & 95% Copper 5% Zinc. Which studies have shown to be superior to lead. I'm sure there are many more combinations of metals that will have the same effect we are all used to getting. But no matter what is chosen as the alternative, we are still dumping and polluting our environment. I'm as guilty as everybody else. I'd like to be part of positive change as a responsible shooter.

Footnote:
The downside initially to using alternative rounds is the cost. Manufacturers will need to recoup losses changing over from lead. Once everybody has made the change prices will come down as demand rises. Change is inevitable as is our ability to adapt to it.

What about the lead in our green future batteries? Or lead flashing on housing?

Lead in shotgun shot is a easy win for politicians without any great benefit to anyone.

Grizzly 45

BryanL wrote: »

What about the lead in our green future batteries? Or lead flashing on housing?

Lead in shotgun shot is a easy win for politicians without any great benefit to anyone.

As someone said in FUN.Its a gun ban by the back door by the EU.Cant get the guns?Get the ammo and places they shoot instead.

grassroot1

Bob66 wrote: »

Agreed. Lead is bad.

It is toxic and has been accepted by humanity for a long time. Out of ignorance and habbit. It's what our Fathers used, our military used etc. People don't like change!, and react mostly negatively to something taken away from them. We feel like it's a personal infringement of our rights. Given time and education we soon become acustomised to the new alternatives. Who'd have thought 20 years ago that we'd be driving electric cars. Growing up I had to make a phone call from a yellow box on the street. Alternatives to lead commonly used today are 100% Copper, which is expensive & 95% Copper 5% Zinc. Which studies have shown to be superior to lead. I'm sure there are many more combinations of metals that will have the same effect we are all used to getting. But no matter what is chosen as the alternative, we are still dumping and polluting our environment. I'm as guilty as everybody else. I'd like to be part of positive change as a responsible shooter.

Footnote:
The downside initially to using alternative rounds is the cost. Manufacturers will need to recoup losses changing over from lead. Once everybody has made the change prices will come down as demand rises. Change is inevitable as is our ability to adapt to it.

I always get surprised when you get a first post with so much contrary opinion
The is no alternative metal that is a direct replacement for lead.
Why should we be forced to except the removal of lead on the whim of an unelected eurocrat

Grizzly 45

Bob66 wrote: »

Agreed. Lead is bad.

It is toxic and has been accepted by humanity for a long time. Out of ignorance and habbit. It's what our Fathers used, our military used etc. People don't like change!, and react mostly negatively to something taken away from them. We feel like it's a personal infringement of our rights. Given time and education we soon become acustomised to the new alternatives. Who'd have thought 20 years ago that we'd be driving electric cars. Growing up I had to make a phone call from a yellow box on the street. Alternatives to lead commonly used today are 100% Copper, which is expensive & 95% Copper 5% Zinc. Which studies have shown to be superior to lead. I'm sure there are many more combinations of metals that will have the same effect we are all used to getting. But no matter what is chosen as the alternative, we are still dumping and polluting our environment. I'm as guilty as everybody else. I'd like to be part of positive change as a responsible shooter.

Footnote:
The downside initially to using alternative rounds is the cost. Manufacturers will need to recoup losses changing over from lead. Once everybody has made the change prices will come down as demand rises. Change is inevitable as is our ability to adapt to it.

Then stick with lead! Its the most cost effective,humane for kills and available.
Unless we decide to start growing veggies on the range berms and eating the first 12ins of dirt on the range,it has just as much an effect on us as eating normally grown and imported commercially grown and lead infested vegtables.

Bismuth,is a lead manufacture by product,and you need lead to produce bismuth.So by and large you are not gaining anything by doing such.

Strangely enough, people seemed to have survived and reproduced no problem with four times the average amount of lead in their systems than we have today
.Our Great great grandparents in Victorian times were surrounded by the stuff,and seemed to have lived to ripe old ages too.They ate off pewter plates and mugs[lead compound],drank water from taps solderd and pipes made of lead.Painted their houses with lead paint, ate from lead sealed cans,belted it onto their roofs and cast many parts insitiu with molten lead.

Even us who grew up in the 60s were still playing with lead soilders,and chewing no doubt on wooden lead painted things as kids.Or writing in school with genuine lead pencils.Still here arent we?

Mississippi.

Bob66 wrote: »

Agreed. Lead is bad.

It is toxic and has been accepted by humanity for a long time. Out of ignorance and habbit. It's what our Fathers used, our military used etc. People don't like change!, and react mostly negatively to something taken away from them. We feel like it's a personal infringement of our rights. Given time and education we soon become acustomised to the new alternatives. Who'd have thought 20 years ago that we'd be driving electric cars. Growing up I had to make a phone call from a yellow box on the street. Alternatives to lead commonly used today are 100% Copper, which is expensive & 95% Copper 5% Zinc. Which studies have shown to be superior to lead. I'm sure there are many more combinations of metals that will have the same effect we are all used to getting. But no matter what is chosen as the alternative, we are still dumping and polluting our environment. I'm as guilty as everybody else. I'd like to be part of positive change as a responsible shooter.

Footnote:
The downside initially to using alternative rounds is the cost. Manufacturers will need to recoup losses changing over from lead. Once everybody has made the change prices will come down as demand rises. Change is inevitable as is our ability to adapt to it.

If it was about environmental reasons , promoting and encouraging paper cartridges again would of done as much if not more.
Steel shot would need stronger wads and longer cartridges.
And the copper would be no less toxic than lead.

juice1304

Bob66 wrote: »

Agreed. Lead is bad.

It is toxic and has been accepted by humanity for a long time. Out of ignorance and habbit. It's what our Fathers used, our military used etc. People don't like change!, and react mostly negatively to something taken away from them. We feel like it's a personal infringement of our rights. Given time and education we soon become acustomised to the new alternatives. Who'd have thought 20 years ago that we'd be driving electric cars. Growing up I had to make a phone call from a yellow box on the street. Alternatives to lead commonly used today are 100% Copper, which is expensive & 95% Copper 5% Zinc. Which studies have shown to be superior to lead. I'm sure there are many more combinations of metals that will have the same effect we are all used to getting. But no matter what is chosen as the alternative, we are still dumping and polluting our environment. I'm as guilty as everybody else. I'd like to be part of positive change as a responsible shooter.

Footnote:
The downside initially to using alternative rounds is the cost. Manufacturers will need to recoup losses changing over from lead. Once everybody has made the change prices will come down as demand rises. Change is inevitable as is our ability to adapt to it.

It has nothing to do with ignorance, it has everything to do with science...:pac:
The only other metal on the planet that shares the same properties/characteristics is gold

, all you have to do is look at the periodic table.

Trust me there is no alternative that is superior. And i know and have spoken with people whose livelihood it is to research these things, including the people in charge of research and development at RWS.
Copper projectiles are also far more dangerous.
They are using it as a means of making a large amount of firearms obsolete and as a means of virtue signaling.
There is a reason they use solid rounds in Africa for penetrating the skulls and bodies of elephant and buffalo.
Having also lived in Germany where they already have a ban on lead projectiles for hunting in several Bundesland i can tell you that these alternatives are terrible and often punch a tiny hole in deer and exit, in the same manner, leaving the animal wounded. Not only did i see this first-hand numerous times but also had several customers complaining on a weekly basis.

Which is why we saw no change in our ammunition sales as everyone still uses lead rounds and carries one or two Evo green with them in their pocket. :rolleyes:

If they want to get rid of lead from the enviroment they should start with removing it from roofs.

Grizzly 45

juice1304 wrote: »

Which is why we saw no change in our ammunition sales as everyone still uses lead rounds and carries one or two Evo green with them in their pocket. :rolleyes:
.

SNAP!!!:D

oldgit1897

Its tokenism from the EU pure and simple, nothing to do with anything environmental. The EU commission and parliament have recently voted themselves double the free air travel miles they are entitled too, that wasn't very green and touchy feely was it ? Of course our quisling "leader" pounced on it to be seen as green, thankfully his time is nearly up.

The eu are hoping people will see the new laws and give up, turn in their guns and not bother with the sport anymore. I wonder will they be looking for lead-free knives after the stabbings in Paris yesterday, things have moved on , terrorists are not interested in firearms anymore, trucks and blades are where its at.

oldgit1897

grassroot1 wrote: »

I always get surprised when you get a first post with so much contrary opinion
The is no alternative metal that is a direct replacement for lead.
Why should we be forced to except the removal of lead on the whim of an unelected eurocrat

I wonder why the Brit's voted for Brexit .

Grizzly 45

But then again,the Brits are so damaged by their on gun and knife laws, the EU couldnt hurt them any further.

oldgit1897

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

But then again,the Brits are so damaged by their on gun and knife laws, the EU couldnt hurt them any further.

It was nothing to do with gun or knife laws really though, but the ability to govern yourself, make your own laws and rules. The eu has too much say about everything, even what wattage your bloody vacuum cleaner can be. :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

My point being, anything the EU could come up with on knife&gun laws are nothing to what the UK parliment has inflicted on its own subjects over the last 25 years,and I doubt HM govt will reverse any of those laws post Brexit either. So while you Britons might be leaving,its on a very badly holed and damaged and rather archaic shipwhen it comes to personal freedoms.:)

juice1304

Their laws are far better than ours. in my opinion.
A gunsmith can get approval from the local super and work from home with nothing more than a safe,
you can own full auto with the proper license., I know someone with a collection of 400 full auto firearms there. It's extremely rare and not something a normal citizen could do unless a serious bonafide collector. However the possibility is actually there.
You can still own section 5 firearms if you show a valid reason, much the same as our restricted licence.
Practical shooting is legal there.
you can own a single shot pistol for dispatching deer.
their license is much better than our joke of a system where you need a licence for every firearm etc..

Grizzly 45

juice1304 wrote: »

Their laws are far better than ours. in my opinion.
A gunsmith can get approval from the local super and work from home with nothing more than a safe,
you can own full auto with the proper license., I know someone with a collection of 400 full auto firearms there. It's extremely rare and not something a normal citizen could do unless a serious bonafide collector. However the possibility is actually there.
You can still own section 5 firearms if you show a valid reason, much the same as our restricted licence.
Practical shooting is legal there.
you can own a single shot pistol for dispatching deer.
their license is much better than our joke of a system where you need a licence for every firearm etc..

Ok ,and in reality how many Brits can in do such?Thats like the it exists/doesent exist Irish concealed carry permit over here.Try gettingv one of those single shot dispatch pistols.Apprently getting a chat with Liz is down in London might be easier.Id even question how long they will have IPSC after their next firearms review,and the hatchet job the Times did on them,and the multiple orgs bumbling reply.Dont look for the extremes of what can be done,rather the possibility of Joe Bloggs being able to do aquire,or liscense.

Eddie B

juice1304 wrote: »

Their laws are far better than ours. in my opinion.
A gunsmith can get approval from the local super and work from home with nothing more than a safe,
you can own full auto with the proper license., I know someone with a collection of 400 full auto firearms there. It's extremely rare and not something a normal citizen could do unless a serious bonafide collector. However the possibility is actually there.
You can still own section 5 firearms if you show a valid reason, much the same as our restricted licence.
Practical shooting is legal there.
you can own a single shot pistol for dispatching deer.
their license is much better than our joke of a system where you need a licence for every firearm etc..

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ok ,and in reality how many Brits can in do such?Thats like the it exists/doesent exist Irish concealed carry permit over here.Try gettingv one of those single shot dispatch pistols.Apprently getting a chat with Liz is down in London might be easier.Id even question how long they will have IPSC after their next firearms review,and the hatchet job the Times did on them,and the multiple orgs bumbling reply.Dont look for the extremes of what can be done,rather the possibility of Joe Bloggs being able to do aquire,or liscense.

I have to agree with a lot of what juice1304 says. Easy get a single shot pistol. Lads doing earth work use them all the time for dispatching fox. You can use catapults to hunt with. You can use calls for hunting vermin, and to call deer. No licence required for air rifles. Trapping legislation is clear, with little chance of mis interpretation. Legislation here is a bloody mess compared to that in the UK.

Grizzly 45

Eddie B wrote: »

I have to agree with a lot of what juice1304 says. Easy get a single shot pistol. Lads doing earth work use them all the time for dispatching fox. You can use catapults to hunt with. You can use calls for hunting vermin, and to call deer. No licence required for air rifles. Trapping legislation is clear, with little chance of mis interpretation. Legislation here is a bloody mess compared to that in the UK.

You mean in the "single shot pistols" something like this???https://www.gunstar.co.uk/radikal-sbx-single-shot/Pistol-Hand-Guns/1110825
A 13 in smoothbore 410.[Availabe in 9mm too]But try getting the exemption to use 410 slugs,and its into sect 5[?] category

OTOH we still have proper CF pistols here,albeit limited numbers,Can get relatively easily enough licensed for .22 handguns,Can still get CF semi auto rifles and restricted shotguns.[Which the Brits are very jealous of BTW] We dont have anti hunting loons harrassing us at every turn [yet] and "SWATting" us when out piegon or duck hunting.Nor do we have a paranoid police force who are boasting on FB on how they removed dangerous weapons from the streets..IE a butter knife,and arresting people for being in public with a POTATO PEELER!!!
Nor do we have to go bother our doctors for medical certs to be included to say we arent cuckoo for our applications,or do we have AGS trolling FB and Twatter for mean tweets and offensive "hate speech" likes and comments to deny us a liscense as we might be "alt right wing"...YET!

Even our vauge laws can be of benefit.IE "the suitable ammo container" debate.In the UK that would be spelled out exactly what they want,and you would REALLY see the bitch&and moan here from us all having to install strong boxes or whatever into our cars.:pac:

So are we or the UK any better off?Call it a draw.They have some things better,as do we.

oldgit1897

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You mean in the "single shot pistols" something like this???https://www.gunstar.co.uk/radikal-sbx-single-shot/Pistol-Hand-Guns/1110825
A 13 in smoothbore 410.[Availabe in 9mm too]But try getting the exemption to use 410 slugs,and its into sect 5[?] category

OTOH we still have proper CF pistols here,albeit limited numbers,Can get relatively easily enough licensed for .22 handguns,Can still get CF semi auto rifles and restricted shotguns.[Which the Brits are very jealous of BTW] We dont have anti hunting loons harrassing us at every turn [yet] and "SWATting" us when out piegon or duck hunting.Nor do we have a paranoid police force who are boasting on FB on how they removed dangerous weapons from the streets..IE a butter knife,and arresting people for being in public with a POTATO PEELER!!!
Nor do we have to go bother our doctors for medical certs to be included to say we arent cuckoo for our applications,or do we have AGS trolling FB and Twatter for mean tweets and offensive "hate speech" likes and comments to deny us a liscense as we might be "alt right wing"...YET!

Even our vauge laws can be of benefit.IE "the suitable ammo container" debate.In the UK that would be spelled out exactly what they want,and you would REALLY see the bitch&and moan here from us all having to install strong boxes or whatever into our cars.:pac:

So are we or the UK any better off?Call it a draw.They have some things better,as do we.

That will happen here too and not too far in the future either. I know a few lads in the uk who are big into shooting, things aren't as bad as you would imagine over there. There seems to be a lot more decent centrefire rifle ranges over there, many are old military ranges, something verboten here afaik.

Scotland seems hell bent on restricting things though, air rifles are now licencable, but it seems they don't like shooting on class warfare grounds :rolleyes:.

meathstevie

oldgit1897 wrote: »

It was nothing to do with gun or knife laws really though, but the ability to govern yourself, make your own laws and rules. The eu has too much say about everything, even what wattage your bloody vacuum cleaner can be. :rolleyes:

EU directives are supra national legislation but do you know how these decisions are made ? Collectively by government ministers of all the member states. That’s why the whole Brexit spin is essentially nothing but an ultimately very expensive and troublesome fallacy.

The EU does not decide anything out of thin air or by itself since it’s nothing more than an organisation that decides collectively on matters that national governments ( in Ireland’s case the people ) of member states have agreed to deal with on a supra national level. All relevant decisions are made by national governments in the Council of Ministers.

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

EU directives are supra national legislation but do you know how these decisions are made ? Collectively by government ministers of all the member states.

In a session called a TRILOUGE. An unaacountable,un recorded,closed to the public,outside the EU system of parlimentary protocol star chamber session.That can literally go on non stop for over 24 hours plus...Can you imagine the mental state that some our legislators are in when laws affecting millions ae drafted???

https://euobserver.com/investigations/123555

. https://edri.org/trilogues-the-system-that-undermines-eu-democracy-and-transparency/

The EU does not decide anything out of thin air or by itself since it’s nothing more than an organisation that decides collectively on matters that national governments ( in Ireland’s case the people ) of member states have agreed to deal with on a supra national level.

Like a Green Swedish Socialist cow deciding that post a multiple terrorist attack in Paris, 24 hours laterthis would be a great time to ban civillian firearm ownership EU wide ,before even the body count was known or the bodies had been accounted for?:mad:

All relevant decisions are made by national governments in the Council of Ministers.

That's the rubber stamping and eyewash for the people out there.Been long decided before it even gets there.

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

In a session called a TRILOUGE. An unaacountable,un recorded,closed to the public,outside the EU system of parlimentary protocol star chamber session.That can literally go on non stop for over 24 hours plus...Can you imagine the mental state that some our legislators are in when laws affecting millions ae drafted???

https://euobserver.com/investigations/123555

. https://edri.org/trilogues-the-system-that-undermines-eu-democracy-and-transparency/



Like a Green Swedish Socialist cow deciding that post a multiple terrorist attack in Paris, 24 hours laterthis would be a great time to ban civillian firearm ownership EU wide ,before even the body count was known or the bodies had been accounted for?:mad:




That's the rubber stamping and eyewash for the people out there.Been long decided before it even gets there.

Just like a cabinet meeting at government buildings so where just as after Paris and our Scandinavian friend some rather shortsighted people come up with piles of steaming horse ****e knee jerk panic policies and legislation.

The only successful legislation that ever came out of such a frame of mind was the legislation setting up the CAB but that was probably inspired by a handful of competent professionals having a word in a few ministers’ ears about how to hit criminals where it hurts.

Unfortunately these days the spin doctor and the sound bite merchant have the upper hand over the professional.

You only need to look at all the “new legislation” that has been introduced and proposed around the likes of revenge porn, domestic abuse, conducting of certain types of criminal trials and so on.

Some of it may do more harm than good while misuse of telecommunications, assault, rape and indecent assault have been on the books as offences carrying potentially serious tariffs for decades if not longer.

The only thing wrong with the lot is the lack of enforcing existing legislation but concentrating on that of course denies the back bench gombeen their five minutes in front of the RTÉ camera.

Grizzly 45

Back OT.
https://www.leadinammunition.com

Sofar THE best website on information revelant to lead ammo. Please pass this on,and post to NARGC,and other revelant bodies.

Grizzly 45

This is one EVERY organisation head and you yourselves should read!

https://www.leadinammunition.com/news-world-002/?fbclid=IwAR2dV4zbRe9HvtESREgokNIt-pqOVFurWBHRDUHNxDuoNNPCHdt3RAo4zcQ

Grizzly 45

Europen Chemical Agency wants to hear from its EU subjects on why they should NOT ban lead in ammo.
You chance to vent your spleen ,politely of course,,with these people.


https://comments.echa.europa.eu/comments_cms/CallForEvidence.aspx?RObjectId=0b0236e184015b61&fbclid=IwAR3EU_eAwJrAWB06bWReo07Uv70KiUgGubAK

oldgit1897

meathstevie wrote: »

EU directives are supra national legislation but do you know how these decisions are made ? Collectively by government ministers of all the member states. That’s why the whole Brexit spin is essentially nothing but an ultimately very expensive and troublesome fallacy.

The EU does not decide anything out of thin air or by itself since it’s nothing more than an organisation that decides collectively on matters that national governments ( in Ireland’s case the people ) of member states have agreed to deal with on a supra national level. All relevant decisions are made by national governments in the Council of Ministers.

Yeah, a camel is a horse designed by a committee, that committee is the eu. As for decision making and democracy in the eu ;

"We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."

That quote is by Jean claude Junker eu preseident.

meathstevie

oldgit1897 wrote: »

Yeah, a camel is a horse designed by a committee, that committee is the eu. As for decision making and democracy in the eu ;

"We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."

That quote is by Jean claude Junker eu preseident.

And that’s exactly the same way as in which national government implements it’s more unpalatable policies.

Either dress it up in a cloak of public safety, which was done to effectively ban guns that weren’t used to harm anyone, or slip it in a heap of quickly quickly before we feck off for eight weeks over Christmas legislation.

Cass

Anyone get any word from the NARGC on their meeting last week?

onetimecypher

First they came for the lead, now coming for the steel that replaced the lead.

https://www.fairandreasonable.co.nz/media_release_colfo_plans_court_action_over_ammo_ban