Everest

jasper100

Richard Hillman wrote: »

So what happens if this retrieval team, go's up, fails to retrieve the body and come home?

This whole thing sounds ludicrous and is taking advantage of the family and well meaning people.

There is absolutely nothing to say that these folks throwing the bill out saying "we went to camp 3, had a scout around and couldn't see anything". Maybe they will go to Camp 3, have a look around and come back but in general it is complete nonsense. The people putting money into this account, whilst well meaning, are complete idiots.

I don't think anybody will be hurt or killed in any retrieval expedition, I just think they'll tokenly go up there, get out the binoculars and go home.

Presumably they will keep giving false hope to the family as long as money keeps flowing.

Everest is a dog eat dog sleaze pit.

tuxy

jasper100 wrote: »

The climbing (and body recovery) window is pretty much closing at this point, and if its delayed a week, as mentioned on here earlier, I cant see this recovery mission happening.

Often it is in the following years that a body is retrieved. That's why they have to cut it out of the ice and it will be over 150kg in weight.
I believe the family have friends who are climbers, as difficult as it may be to talk about these people should be helping the family make the correct decision.

QuadaLumpins

@jasper ... you made the accusation that the GoFundMe was a “scam”.

Are you prepared to back this up or explain what you meant by that?

Do you know that you cant libel people like that, even on the internet? This can be taken further and I’m sure there are people who’d be very keen to do this ...

jasper100

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Will the 200k+ be refunded to the people who contributed to a rescue mission if it can't go ahead?

According to their faq, as soon as money is pledged you can start drawing it down to your bank account to spend as you please. No accountability at all.

You dont need to reach the target to start drawing down funds.

So say you start a fund for 200k to purchase a historic building and open it to the public, you can just keep drawing out the cash without ever reaching the target or purchasing the building.

newirishman

NIMAN wrote: »

What a lot of people are forgetting is that climbs on everest are usually only done during a very small window in May, as that's when the weather is at its most favourable.

Outside of this window the risks can increase dramatically. Its likely by the time the money is raised it'll be too late to try to go look for him, and any search might be delayed indefinitely.

They have at this moment already raised €213K Euro from around 6000 people.
That is a huge amount of money raised in one day, and should be more than enough to start / continue immediately.

Very sad story, and I feel with the family. I have lost a friend or two to the mountains.
I still think it is madness to do this mission. There is literally zero chance that he is still alive, probably not much more chance of finding his body, and a huge risk to everyone partaking in this search mission. This is not the Alps where you can essentially hop into a helicopter once it stops raining.

As someone who grew up in the alps and has been hopping around mountains since young age, I know about the risks of these activities even without going into the extreme altitudes of the Himalayas or Andes, and had my own experience with the challenges of thin air whilst hiking.

There’s the (unwritten) rule for many a mountain that if something happens and you get lost, there will be very limited attempts of rescue missions due to the danger of such. If you are not very clear about this, and about the risks associated with the activity with your next of kin you have in my opinion no business trying to scale that particular mountain. Usually, you sign paperwork to the effect before you head off, given it isn’t easy to get insurance cover for these things. Mind, even your standard life insurance wouldn’t pay out in such cases unless you explicitly try to get cover (which is expensive or better: impossible).

There is no logical reason whatsoever to try and scale a mountain, apart from your own determination and dare I say ego. There is no benefit to anyone bar oneself to do this. And I am saying this as someone who has been up a handful of 5000m+ mountains and once above 6000m. There is nothing wrong with it of course, but this is essentially extreme sports with extremely high risk, even if you can hire whole teams to support / drag you up and down that hill like in the case of Everest.

Don’t make someone else take that risk as well, even though it can be difficult for many to find closure without finding the body.

tuxy

QuadaLumpins wrote: »

@jasper ... you made the accusation that the GoFundMe was a “scam”.

Rather than calling it a scam(it's far to early for that accusation)
Is it fair to state there is a massive irregularity between the usual cost of such a mission and the goal set for the gofundme?

B0jangles

I was reading about conditions on the higher regions of Everest last night, and it's horrible and astonishing just how difficult it is to do pretty much anything there. Just staying alive is a constant struggle. There are bodies that have been lying right beside the main tracks for years on end, left there simply because retrieval is so difficult. Imagine how much harder it would be when the body has fallen a significant distance and its exact location isn't known?

I feel terrible for this man's family, I can't imagine how utterly destroyed they are - especially as he'd already reached the top and was returning - so subconsciously you'd feel that the major danger was already past and over.

But I still think the money raised should go to the charity that was named, and a memorial put up to him here in Ireland, maybe on a mountaintop where he used to climb? Throwing such a huge sum at what sounds like a hopeless and dangerous retrieval effort, one which could very easily cost more lives surely cannot be what he would have wanted?

McCrack

QuadaLumpins wrote: »

@jasper ... you made the accusation that the GoFundMe was a “scam”.

Are you prepared to back this up or explain what you meant by that?

Do you know that you cant libel people like that, even on the internet? This can be taken further and I’m sure there are people who’d be very keen to do this ...

Let it go

He or she didn't say it was a scam just that they can be left with a certain impression from some gofundme appeals and they didn't single out this one

holliehobbie

Why can't they give the money to the sherpas to improve their quality of life like Sir Edmund Hillary did? I read somewhere that the insurance company won't pay out for the attempted recovery. Maybe that should be questioned more?

holliehobbie

holliehobbie wrote: »

Why can't they give the money to the sherpas to improve their quality of life like Sir Edmund Hillary did? I read somewhere that the insurance company won't pay out for the attempted recovery. Maybe that should be questioned more?

No insurance company would pay out for such a dangerous mission.

Muahahaha

Must say that €750k figure seems very suss to me, especially given the average income in Nepal is only slightly over $1,000 per year, it is one of the poorest countries in the world. The rescue attempt would be likely done by around 8-10 Sherpas, specifically climbing sherpas who do get paid more than the average Nepali. But not 75 times as much as the annual salary for about 4 weeks work. I'm guessing the expedition company Mr.Lawless went with is 'selling' this search and rescue package to the family, they'll probably pay the team of Sherpas circa €100k and then keep the rest for themselves for 'organising' it. They need to cut out the middle man.

Muahahaha

Muahahaha wrote: »

Must say that €750k figure seems very suss to me, especially given the average income in Nepal is only slightly over $1,000 per year, it is one of the poorest countries in the world. The rescue attempt would be likely done by around 8-10 Sherpas, specifically climbing sherpas who do get paid more than the average Nepali. But not 75 times as much as the annual salary for about 4 weeks work. I'm guessing the expedition company Mr.Lawless went with is 'selling' this search and rescue package to the family, they'll probably pay the team of Sherpas circa €100k and then keep the rest for themselves for 'organising' it. They need to cut out the middle man.

What % do GoFundMe take?

jasper100

holliehobbie wrote: »

I read somewhere that the insurance company won't pay out for the attempted recovery. Maybe that should be questoned more?

Thats more of it. They know the risks and insurance covers x, y and z.

Id love to see where the insurance companies provide 750k cover for body recovery operations on Everest.

yosser hughes

tuxy wrote: »

In the last hour there has been a number of posts on the gofundme requesting that the family reconsiders sending more people into danger. These were respectful posts that wished the family well but pointed out the problems with recovery missions at 8000m+.
These posts have been deleted, whoever is running the page wishes to keep the general public in the dark about what they are funding.

If this is happening then serious questions need to be asked. There are still people donating that are commenting that they hope he is "returned safe and well".
The gofundme page should be amended at least.

jasper100

Muahahaha wrote: »

Must say that €750k figure seems very suss to me, especially given the average income in Nepal is only slightly over $1,000 per year, it is one of the poorest countries in the world. The rescue attempt would be likely done by around 8-10 Sherpas, specifically climbing sherpas who do get paid more than the average Nepali. But not 75 times as much as the annual salary for about 4 weeks work. I'm guessing the expedition company Mr.Lawless went with is 'selling' this search and rescue package to the family, they'll probably pay the team of Sherpas circa €100k and then keep the rest for themselves for 'organising' it. They need to cut out the middle man.

Do they even know where the body is? Or if its in a recoverable location?

newirishman

Deleted User wrote: »

What % do GoFundMe take?

GoFundMe has no platform charges, so they take nothing.

newirishman

jasper100 wrote: »

Do they even know where the body is? Or if its in a recoverable location?

Doesn’t look like it. They have not found the body, or a more concrete idea where it could be apart from the likely route he headed down.

Muahahaha

jasper100 wrote: »

Do they even know where the body is? Or if its in a recoverable location?

They know the general area from his last GPS location. But he could still have fallen way down a deep crevasse and be impossible to get to. He could also be buried in a snow drift and impossible to see.

yosser hughes

QuadaLumpins wrote: »

@jasper ... you made the accusation that the GoFundMe was a “scam”.

Are you prepared to back this up or explain what you meant by that?

Do you know that you cant libel people like that, even on the internet? This can be taken further and I’m sure there are people who’d be very keen to do this ...

No he didn't. The rest of your post is just incorrect based on that.

QuadaLumpins

jasper100 wrote: »

And the chances of a body being recovered are slim.

This strikes me as a scam, people can start drawing down gofundme funds as soon as they are pledged, direct to their bank accounts, to spend as they please, no questions asked.

No need to reach the target.

No requirement to set out in advance where and how money will be spent.

No accountability at all.

“This strikes me as a scam” is pretty clear and specific.

NIMAN

jasper100 wrote: »

Do they even know where the body is? Or if its in a recoverable location?

As far as I've read, they found his GPS but have no idea where his body is.

He may never be found no matter how many go looking for him. Snow will fall and his body may get covered and not be visible again, either for years or possibly ever.

He is as likely to be found by chance in the future than by any search party in the coming days.

I would suggest watching a few of the YouTube videos about climbing everest, the conditions, the few hundred bodies scattered around the mountain for those who think this rescue attempt is something that will return a body. They are fascinating.

There are images and video of bodies which look like they are just sitting out in the open, like the one covered in the Canadian flag. It's not down some ravine, but in a place you can just walk past. Yet it's still there. You'd think that is body retrieval was easily achieved, such bodies wouldn't be scattered around?

Cut and paste this link to see what I mean

https://images.app.goo.gl/Jz5fvqUJutnJZkHz6

newirishman

newirishman wrote: »

GoFundMe has no platform charges, so they take nothing.

Ok. How much are transaction fees. Is it something like 2.9% plus 25c? Per transaction?

I get the impression that the money will be kept by the family.

as others have said no insurance company would provide insurance for Everest expeditions or if they did the premium would be so high as to be not worth it.

no recovery mission is most likely going to take place because that is rarely if ever done

https://mpora.com/mountaineering-expeditions/the-gruesome-truth-about-the-climbers-who-die-on-mount-everest#EjLuYlbBbZWApHkG.9

“Human beings simply aren’t built to function at the cruising altitude of a 747.” Recovering a body requires a lot of effort, not to mention risk, and so most of the time they’re just left there.

afaik they don't even know where the body is. the bodies that are already discovered and in plain sight are mostly left there.

if posts about the risks of recovering a body from Everest are being removed from the gofundme page then it is highly suspect.

I wonder what the tax implications of this gofundme thing are - surely you just can't keep such a large amount of money donated by the internet?

MOD-Picture of supposedly dead person removed.

yosser hughes

QuadaLumpins wrote: »

“This strikes me as a scam” is pretty clear and specific.

Is it clear and specific? I don't think so.
It's honest opinion, it's not an accusation. It's also made in the context of possibly protecting others who are donating their money, a perfectly valid scepticism. Thankfully we live in a society that allows people to freely express honest opinion.

Your attempts to shut down honest opinion and discussion is more offensive to be honest.
Good luck arguing your case in court

McCrack

QuadaLumpins wrote: »

“This strikes me as a scam” is pretty clear and specific.

But you left out..

I am not speaking about this situation in particular here, just the overall concept.

tuxy

yosser hughes wrote: »

If this is happening then serious questions need to be asked. There are still people donating that are commenting that they hope he is "returned safe and well".
The gofundme page should be amended at least.

I wish I had taken screen shots, there posts were removed within 5 minutes, someone is keeping a very close eye on what is being said. And yes the posts that wish for him to return alive and well have not been removed.
Right from the start it was known that it was impossible that he would be alive but the description of the gofundme hinted otherwise.

Snow Garden

Does anyone know if they ever recovered John Delaney's body after he died near the summit in 2011? I dont remember any plan to recover the body.

Wildlife Actor

Snow Garden wrote: »

Does anyone know if they ever recovered John Delaney's body after he died near the summit in 2011? I dont remember any plan to recover the body.

No. He's still up there.

tuxy

An experienced Irish climber finally informing the media of the reality of the situation.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/seamus-lawless-search-may-not-go-ahead-due-to-safety-concerns-expert-warns-925264.html

It's a shame that Pat Falvey's comments would never be allowed on the gofundmepage.

Blaizes

glasso wrote: »

I get the impression that the money will be kept by the family.

as others have said no insurance company would provide insurance for Everest expeditions or if they did the premium would be so high as to be not worth it.

no recovery mission is most likely going to take place because that is rarely if ever done

https://mpora.com/mountaineering-expeditions/the-gruesome-truth-about-the-climbers-who-die-on-mount-everest#EjLuYlbBbZWApHkG.9

“Human beings simply aren’t built to function at the cruising altitude of a 747.” Recovering a body requires a lot of effort, not to mention risk, and so most of the time they’re just left there.

afaik they don't even know where the body is. the bodies that are already discovered and in plain sight are mostly left there.

if posts about the risks of recovering a body from Everest are being removed from the gofundme page then it is highly suspect.

I wonder what the tax implications of this gofundme thing are - surely you just can't keep such a large amount of money donated by the internet?

Link very grim reading, very sad.