Everest

Blaizes

.Charlo wrote: »

It really is dog eat dog on Everest,I watched a documentary yesterday about a group from New Zealand who were climbing Everest in 2006. On their way up they passed a dying climber and then again on the way back down passed him again without trying to help him.

Not sure they could have done much to help but they were vilified in the press and by Sir Edmund Hilary.

Yes I read that comment by Hilary as well basically saying that climbers first priority should be helping those in trouble even if it means abandoning their plans to reach the summit. I suppose after spending so much money on their adventure and wanting to achieve this big thing they don’t care or won’t let me themselves care. Horrible though and passing the dead along the way why would anyone possibly want to do that it’s ghoulish.

I was reading about one climber who did turn back though as he couldn’t handle what he’d seen .The more I read about it the more I wonder if Everest should be closed to this kind of tourism too many people dying.

recedite

Stark wrote: »

If you want to experience what it feels like to be on the highest point on the planet and have strong economic background to compensate for your old age, weak physical condition or your fear of risks, you can sign up for the VVIP Mount Everest Expedition Service offered by Seven Summit Treks and Expeditions.

Yikes.

If only I had the money, I'd be the perfect candidate.

Blaizes

Blaizes wrote: »

Yes I read that comment by Hilary as well basically saying that climbers first priority should be helping those in trouble even if it means abandoning their plans to reach the summit. I suppose after spending so much money on their adventure and wanting to achieve this big thing they don’t care or won’t let me themselves care.

In the Sherpa documentary some of the clients are furious when the sherpas go on strike (due to 16 deaths in an avalanche). One of them likens them to terrorists. It's shocking how selfish some of them are.

Previously you see the sherpas make dozens of trips at night while the clients sleep in their tents. Going ahead with gear and oxygen bottles. One particularly dangerous part of the route, the organizer says the clients will do twice. The sherpas will do it 20-30 times.

maxsmum

I had no idea of the treacherousness of Everest or of the financial exploitation of the Sherpas. After watching all these documentaries over the weekend I cannot comprehend how anyone with a 4 year old child took this on, knowing the risk of death and that his body would not be returned to his family if he died.
I just don't get it.
Very, very sad.
How is this ever going to be explained to the child?

Lillyfae

Deleted User wrote: »

In the Sherpa documentary some of the clients are furious when the sherpas go on strike (due to 16 deaths in an avalanche). One of them likens them to terrorists. It's shocking how selfish some of them are.

Previously you see the sherpas make dozens of trips at night while the clients sleep in their tents. Going ahead with gear and oxygen bottles. One particularly dangerous part of the route, the organizer says the clients will do twice. The sherpas will do it 20-30 times.

This is exactly it. These people are egotistical maniacs. This man left a pregnant partner and young child at home to tick off a "before 40" bucket list aspiration to summit a mountain. If one has no dependents go ahead, it's your life, but if you have people that rely on you this is not on, nor is this recovery effort. He risked his own life, no one else's should be risked in trying to recover a body- I believe this should be a rule on Everest.

BarryD2

BowSideChamp wrote: »

This is the crowd that Shay Lawless signed up with - https://www.sevensummittreks.com/trip/vvip-everest-expedition-service

Basically, you pay for some poor local Sherpas to carry you and all your gear up the mountain so you can take an Instagram photo.

No doubt that the sales pitch on this site is OTT but you must put it in the context that there's a long tradition of mountain guiding in mountainous regions. It's a source of income and a way of life even. The idea of hiring mountain guides goes back to the Golden Age of Alpine mountaineering in the 19th century, gentlemen and ladies in their tweed jackets and hob nail boots climbing the Alps under the guidance of local guides. So if it's OK in Europe, so it should be OK in Asia or wherever. Indeed we have a number of Irish professional mountain guides whom you can pay to assist you in climbing peaks.

The 'Seven Summits' thing though is a different can of worms, the challenge idea of climbing the highest mountains on each of the seven continents. The general theme is that whilst several of these climbs are physically & logistically difficult, they are not overly technical in terms of steep climbing. That they can be in the scope of the ordinary man or woman who is sufficiently fit, motivated and financed. Started in the 1980s and obviously whilst relatively few people do it, there's a small touch of the 'caminos' about it. Hard to know whether it's a good concept in that it breaks down barriers and allows people to take on challenges that seem impossible. Or a unhelpful concept that lures people into a falser sense of safety than prevails in reality.

kurtainsider

kurtainsider wrote: »

Perhaps all money collected above and beyond what they want to spend will go directly to Barretstown?

There has been no indication of that in the fundraising request.
Given that the original fundraising pages show they hadn't reached their targets I imagine the money will go to covering the cost of the expedition, towards his mortgage and an amount to charity.

Fotish wrote: »

If you set up a Go Fund Me Page looking for 750,000 euro ,you can expect people to comment and in my opinion you are inviting comment.

What surprised me most ,was the speed that the page was set up, in such at short time, he was only missing a few hours when the page was set up.

I would expect a period of turmoil for a few days and then start to make plans and look for help.

Indecent haste in this case ! How was the figure of 750,000 arrived at ?

I'm sure grief and wanting to do something played a big part but the best time to fundraise was immediately - while it was in the news headlines. If they had waited a few days and it was clearer that there was no hope of finding him alive and only a small chance of recovering the body people would question if their money could be better spent elsewhere.

ToBeFrank123

Wildlife Actor wrote: »

Don't want to distract but on the theme of burials in the mountains, an interesting and poignant story. I'm sure its somewhere online but i read about it in a book so working from memory.

Willi Unsold was the third American to summit everest when he and his partner climbed a new route, the west ridge, the same day the first two Americans climbed it by the south col route. Serious mountaineer. Lost his toes to frostbite in the way down but made it.

He always wanted to climb a sacred Indian mountain called Nanda Devi, but it was closed to climbers for years by the indian govt. Unsoeld had even named his daughter after it.

In the 70s, Nanda Devi was reopened to climbers (briefly) and a team was assembled. By now Devi Unsoeld was 19 or 20 and an accomplished climber for her age. Father and daughter joined the team. The expedition was a mess and there feuds and general bad luck. Anyway, at high altitude, Devi got severe oedema and rapidly deteriorated. She died with her father and her team wrapped her body and left her on the mountain she was named for.

There's no shame in leaving a body on the mountain.

True. But there's also no shame in weighing the risks and benefits. Willi Unsoeld was about as irresponsible as you can get, bringing his daughter up a dangerous mountain like that, particularly when the expedition was a mess. He should have said "feck this, I'm going home" as any responsible parent would have done.

What I am noticing with a lot of these climbers is summit fever and a lack of basic cop on. You don't need to be the world's leading mountaineering expert or even to have climbed a mountain to see that.

There's a fine line between being a "hero" and "irresponsible fool" on places like Everest. And I have little sympathy for people who live on the edge in general.

facehugger99

maxsmum wrote: »

I cannot comprehend how anyone with a 4 year old child took this on, knowing the risk of death and that his body would not be returned to his family if he died.
I just don't get it.
Very, very sad.
How is this ever going to be explained to the child?

It beggars belief that anyone could prioritise a self-indulgent, ego-boost over staying at home and looking after your family. It smacks of incredible selfishness.

In my view, being a hero involves being a good parent and spending time with your kids.

His wife will now have to be the hero in that family, raising kids on her own. It probably won't get you as much kudos down the pub than saying you climbed Mt Everest but it's infinitely more important.

Ardent

Can only assume he unclipped from the line at some point on the way back down- either from hypoxia or to pass another person or group. We'll probably never know.

Wildlife Actor

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

True. But there's also no shame in weighing the risks and benefits. Willi Unsoeld was about as irresponsible as you can get, bringing his daughter up a dangerous mountain like that, particularly when the expedition was a mess. He should have said "feck this, I'm going home" as any responsible parent would have done.

What I am noticing with a lot of these climbers is summit fever and a lack of basic cop on. You don't need to be the world's leading mountaineering expert or even to have climbed a mountain to see that.

There's a fine line between being a "hero" and "irresponsible fool" on places like Everest. And I have little sympathy for people who live on the edge in general.

When i said there's no shame in leaving the bodt on the mountain, the alternative i was referencing was a recovery mission, not avoidingbthe mountain in the first place. That's a different debate and I've posted in that earlier.

You should read a bit more about Willi Unsoeld and his daughter before you draw that conclusion about them. They were real mountaineers so "bringing his daughter up the mountain" mischaracterises the dynamic completely and does a disservice to her. WU wrote a piece about the death afterwards: its a few paragraphs into this link: https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/wild-adventures-known-reflections-jolene-willi-unsoeld

He died himself a couple of years later in an avalanche.

ToBeFrank123

Wildlife Actor wrote: »

When i said there's no shame in leaving the bodt on the mountain, the alternative i was referencing was a recovery mission, not avoidingbthe mountain in the first place. That's a different debate and I've posted in that earlier.

You should read a bit more about Willi Unsoeld and his daughter before you draw that conclusion about them. They were real mountaineers so "bringing his daughter up the mountain" mischaracterises the dynamic completely and does a disservice to her. WU wrote a piece about the death afterwards: its a few paragraphs into this link: https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/wild-adventures-known-reflections-jolene-willi-unsoeld

He died himself a couple of years later in an avalanche.

Fair enough and it is an interesting story. I think these mountaineers get into a bubble where they cannot think straight both before climbing and on the mountain. And someone like Unsoeld and his daughter would rather die on a mountain than live a long life of relative safety. They know the risks and its part of the thrill of climbing. People choose different courses in life and good luck to them.

antix80

He has a young child and wife pregnant with 2nd child.
The trip of a lifetime costs €40,000 to do and there's a 2.2% risk of death.
I see from his sponsor.me page that he and his friend managed to raise €8k for charity.
It's too bad he didn't have a father or brother or someone in his life to say "you're lying to yourself. You're doing this for yourself. It's selfish"
Now his wife has a gofundme that raise €200k with a target of €750k to bring his body home. I don't care how people spend their money but this seems like such a waste of money with a huge risk that one or all of the rescuers could end up dying.

SirGerryAdams

knucklehead6 wrote: »

yes raising 25000 for charity... How selfish of him :rolleyes:

You're probably one of those who looks at suicide victims as selfish as well, aren't you?

And now his family are looking for 750k to search for him. Should have sold cupcakes instead.

LollipopJimmy

Having read through the thread and even read around on a few things it really is hard to know what to think. First off I obviously feel a lot of empathy for the man’s wife who is now a widow with a child to care for with another on the way. Insurance won’t pay out, mortgage protection etc, ‘adventure sports’ are usually excluded from policies. My condolences to his family.

The next part though and I apologise in advance for this, his actions were that of a selfish man, to go ahead on this trip with a decent probability of never returning was insane. His sponsor page, the original one was to pay for the trip – only leftovers would be given to Barretstown. So it was really – pay for me to do this.

Now people are being asked to donate again to mount a ‘rescue/recovery’ mission. At this point the decent thing needs to be done and those who have donated through gofundme should be refunded. If there is a gofundme started to ease the financial burden on his family then grand, donators can choose to donate with eyes wide open.

To hear this ‘hero’ crap, our soldiers killed on peacekeeping missions are heroes, Garda Ciaran Jones who jumped into a swollen river to rescue others and gave his life in the process is a hero, the firefighters who walk into burning buildings day in day out are heros.

This was a man chasing a thrill and lets be honest, there was no real charity element. He raised 8k, Barretstown wouldn’t have seen a cent of that based on what the page says.

jasper100

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Fair enough and it is an interesting story. I think these mountaineers get into a bubble where they cannot think straight both before climbing and on the mountain. And someone like Unsoeld and his daughter would rather die on a mountain than live a long life of relative safety. They know the risks and its part of the thrill of climbing. People choose different courses in life and good luck to them.

Was this "Shay" fella even a mountaineer though? He sounds to me more like just a glory hunter with a big ego. Professor he called himself, not the sharpest knife in the drawer to leave a young family to go on a guided walk with such high risks.

Any fool with money can try climb everest. Its not an achievement anymore.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

maxsmum wrote: »

I had no idea of the treacherousness of Everest or of the financial exploitation of the Sherpas. After watching all these documentaries over the weekend I cannot comprehend how anyone with a 4 year old child took this on, knowing the risk of death and that his body would not be returned to his family if he died.
I just don't get it.
Very, very sad.
How is this ever going to be explained to the child?

I know, it’s eye-opening stuff. I can’t believe how clueless some of the wannabe summiters are (I just want to say, I know little about Seamus Lawless and I’m not grouping him in with these people). Just “I’ll arrive here with no previous acclimatisation at high altitude done, let alone climbs at that altitude. Be grand.”

I mean, for the Mexico City Olympics, the athletes had to acclimatise themselves. And that was people in peak condition at a far lower altitude than Everest.

jasper100

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

Having read through the thread and even read around on a few things it really is hard to know what to think. First off I obviously feel a lot of empathy for the man’s wife who is now a widow with a child to care for with another on the way. Insurance won’t pay out, mortgage protection etc, ‘adventure sports’ are usually excluded from policies. My condolences to his family.

The next part though and I apologise in advance for this, his actions were that of a selfish man, to go ahead on this trip with a decent probability of never returning was insane. His sponsor page, the original one was to pay for the trip – only leftovers would be given to Barretstown. So it was really – pay for me to do this.

Now people are being asked to donate again to mount a ‘rescue/recovery’ mission. At this point the decent thing needs to be done and those who have donated through gofundme should be refunded. If there is a gofundme started to ease the financial burden on his family then grand, donators can choose to donate with eyes wide open.

To hear this ‘hero’ crap, our soldiers killed on peacekeeping missions are heroes, Garda Ciaran Jones who jumped into a swollen river to rescue others and gave his life in the process is a hero, the firefighters who walk into burning buildings day in day out are heros.

This was a man chasing a thrill and lets be honest, there was no real charity element. He raised 8k, Barretstown wouldn’t have seen a cent of that based on what the page says.

Well said.

"Shay" was a fcuking bellend. Plain and simple.

lazygal

I would be absolutely furious if my husband even thought about doing something as stupid as an adventure dressed up as charity when he has a young family. And then to ask for hundreds of thousands of euro when it goes wrong is even more fury inducing. Can't understand these types of people.

jasper100

So is there anyy update on how the 233k raised so far is being spent?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Deleted User wrote: »

In the Sherpa documentary some of the clients are furious when the sherpas go on strike (due to 16 deaths in an avalanche). One of them likens them to terrorists. It's shocking how selfish some of them are.

Previously you see the sherpas make dozens of trips at night while the clients sleep in their tents. Going ahead with gear and oxygen bottles. One particularly dangerous part of the route, the organizer says the clients will do twice. The sherpas will do it 20-30 times.

God, that’s infuriating. “Do what I say, peon! I flung money at you!”.

ToBeFrank123

jasper100 wrote: »

So is there anyy update on how the 233k raised so far is being spent?

Nope. There's definitely a transparency issue though with online fundraising like this. No accounts, no bank account details, etc.

I'd like to see an upfront breakdown of how they plan to spend it, who they are sending it to, are they sending it to some dodgy guy in Nepal or someone reputable. Will all of it leave Ireland or some of it remain here. Do they even know a proper search will take place or the money will just end up in a bank account out there with no hope of retrieval and no search. I think Everest is only accessible in the month of May so it could be another year at least before a proper search is done.

It would be great to see receipts, and so on. We know from other countries that people used fundraised money to spend on mortgage payments and the like.

I have no trouble donating provided its all clear and transparent.

recedite

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

.. Insurance won’t pay out, mortgage protection etc, ‘adventure sports’ are usually excluded from policies. My condolences to his family...

Just on this insurance thing, I think the insurers are being unfairly painted as the bad guys here.
Ordinary travel insurance would not cover a trip to the top of Mt. Everest.
I'd assume there was a special insurance included in the travel package, and it would be reasonable to assume that it would cover the cost of any feasible rescue of a live climber, but not the cost of retrieving a dead body from an inaccessible location.
Mortgage protection, well I'd have thought any mortgage they had would be written off now, but I'm not an expert and obviously I haven't seen the policy.
And even if he had no other private life assurance policy, as someone said earlier..

PokeHerKing wrote: »

750k is quite the lofty target. I'd say his death in service with trinity is somewhere in the region of half a million if they need it.

Again I'm not an expert on university policies and benefits.
But it seems that although the family must be in a very bad place right now, lack of money is probably not going to be their most major problem going forward.

LollipopJimmy

recedite wrote: »

Just on this insurance thing, I think the insurers are being unfairly painted as the bad guys here.
Ordinary travel insurance would not cover a trip to the top of Mt. Everest.
I'd assume there was a special insurance included in the travel package, and it would be reasonable to assume that it would cover the cost of any feasible rescue of a live climber, but not the cost of retrieving a dead body from an inaccessible location.
Mortgage protection, well I'd have thought any mortgage they had would be written off now, but I'm not an expert and obviously I haven't seen the policy.
And even if he had no other private life assurance policy, as someone said earlier..
Again I'm not an expert on university policies and benefits.
But it seems that although the family must be in a very bad place right now, lack of money is probably not going to be their most major problem going forward.

Mortgage protection wouldn't cover something like this, it was mentioned to me when I signed up to fight MMA (I'm single with no kids)

This was in my policy

Insurance Policy wrote:

Taking part in (or practising for) boxing, caving, climbing, horse-racing, jetskiing, martial
arts, mountaineering, off-piste skiing, pot-holing, power boat racing, underwater diving,
yacht racing or any race, trial or times motorsport.

thedeiseman

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Nope. There's definitely a transparency issue though with online fundraising like this. No accounts, no bank account details, etc.

I'd like to see an upfront breakdown of how they plan to spend it, who they are sending it to, are they sending it to some dodgy guy in Nepal or someone reputable. Will all of it leave Ireland or some of it remain here. Do they even know a proper search will take place or the money will just end up in a bank account out there with no hope of retrieval and no search. I think Everest is only accessible in the month of May so it could be another year at least before a proper search is done.

It would be great to see receipts, and so on. We know from other countries that people used fundraised money to spend on mortgage payments and the like.

I have no trouble donating provided its all clear and transparent.

While I agree completely with what's been said on here - guy should never have been up there given his circumstances. However I don't think anyone who hasn't donated to the gofundme ( which is probably everyone on this thread), should be demanding accountability for this money. It's not really any of our business.

retro:electro

Obvious tragedy aside, this thread has been so enlightening to read and I’ve loved reading the various insights of experienced climbers and the little anecdotes and musings about the mountain in general. It’s not something I knew a lot about so it’s been fascinating reading. I knew about The Sherpa but had no idea how used and abused they were. Terrible.

My sympathies to the family.

maxsmum

If any (and I'm really clutching at straws here) good can come out of this maybe it will be a bit of education ..and that's for partners and parents who may have been clueless as to what the risks are here.
For example I'm now well prepared for my response should my son ever come to me one day announcing his desire to climb Everest.
Really hoping no sherpas die if they are forced to find his body.

Lillyfae

maxsmum wrote: »

If any (and I'm really clutching at straws here) good can come out of this maybe it will be a bit of education ..and that's for partners and parents who may have been clueless as to what the risks are here.
For example I'm now well prepared for my response should my son ever come to me one day announcing his desire to climb Everest.
Really hoping no sherpas die if they are forced to find his body.

8 years ago John Delaney did the same thing though. Lots of people will never learn.

ToBeFrank123

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

Mortgage protection wouldn't cover something like this, it was mentioned to me when I signed up to fight MMA (I'm single with no kids)

This was in my policy

So married with a 4 year old and another on the way.
No travel insurance if he ran into problems.
And no mortgage protection if climbing a mountain.
And his trip probably can't be considered in service with Trinity.

Its hard to draw any other conclusion than this guy was playing Russian Roulette with his life and his family's future.

It also sounds like he fell into a valley. Its hard enough getting a dead body off the mountain when its on the main route. If its in a valley in the deathzone, impossible. Best to leave him there and not risk more lives.

lazygal

A death in service benefit just means you're employed by the organisation at the time of death. Doesn't mean the death was linked to your job.