Everest

ToBeFrank123

lazygal wrote: »

A death in service benefit just means you're employed by the organisation at the time of death. Doesn't mean the death was linked to your job.

That's fair enough. I hope the wife gets something. Although at the moment, there is no body.

pc7

lazygal wrote: »

A death in service benefit just means you're employed by the organisation at the time of death. Doesn't mean the death was linked to your job.

If you are on unpaid leave you may not be covered for ‘death in service benefit’ so depends on the university’s policy and what leave he was on (annual, shorter working year, special leave of absence etc).

banie01

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

That's fair enough. I hope the wife gets something. Although at the moment, there is no body.

A body is not needed nor does there need to be a 7yr wait(many people think there does) before a "death" can be confirmed.

The outright selfishness of the climber in undertaking this trip is absolutely baffling.
Leaving aside the adventure holiday as a "charity" event.

Choosing to leave your family behind and let's be honest here...
At risk of extreme financial hardship should he be one of the 3% that die on the climb!
No mortgage protection policy payout (let's hope that at least the family home is owned outright)
Unlikely to have a life assurance policy payout unless an absolutely huge single premium policy was taken out prior to the climb.

And whilst death in service will likely be in place, some policies do exclude high risk activities.

To decide that climbing a mountain, risking not only your own life but your young families future is worth a throw of the dice!
Is in my honest opinion selfish, arrogant hubris.

My condolences to his family and to those affected by Mr Lawless loss...

But and I say this as someone who was left widowed to raise a child alone!
Risking your family's future, leaving them dependent upon the kindness of strangers is absolute egocentric selfishness.

Does one climb a mountain to be a hero to a club of climbers and have a great "top of the world" anecdote.
Or does one ensure that whatever happens that they are around to be there for their child!

I know which one is the "hero" in my book!

ToBeFrank123

I was just reading this article on how difficult it is to retrieve a body.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/05/27/the-extraordinary-cost-of-retrieving-dead-bodies-from-mount-everest/?utm_term=.216993b64a1b

Some of these climbers seem to be a bit hippy leaning with their names!, eg Seaborn Beck Weathers

Anyways, he put it really well with his advice.

One former climber, Seaborn Beck Weathers who chronicled his experience nearly perishing on the mountain in a book titled “Left for Dead,” now strongly advises potential climbers to reconsider. He told BBC, “If you don’t have anyone who cares about you or is dependent on you, if you have no friends or colleagues, and if you’re willing to put a single round in the chamber of a revolver and put it in your mouth and pull the trigger, then yeah, it’s a pretty good idea to climb Everest.”

A body can be twice its weight after you dig it out of the ice and snow. Sounds like Lawless' body is in a valley though, 500metres from where he was last seen. Retrieving his body would be a virtual suicide mission at best.

bodice ripper

ToBeFrank123 wrote:

Some of these climbers seem to be a bit hippy leaning with their names!, eg Seaborn Beck Weathers

Literally a conservative, Texan doctor.

lazygal

pc7 wrote: »

lazygal wrote: »

A death in service benefit just means you're employed by the organisation at the time of death. Doesn't mean the death was linked to your job.

If you are on unpaid leave you may not be covered for ‘death in service benefit’ so depends on the university’s policy and what leave he was on (annual, shorter working year, special leave of absence etc).

Well of course like any benefits there are terms and conditions. But a death in service benefit isn't usually directly linked to dying while "on the job".

tuxy

jasper100 wrote: »

So is there anyy update on how the 233k raised so far is being spent?

The person running the gofundme page is watching it closely. They could amend the details at any time but for now they still plan to use the money for a search and rescue mission to bring Seamus home safe and well.

completedit

It's really weird that people are so cut throat re: passing dying bodies, given that it is just a ****ing holiday.

ohnonotgmail

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I was just reading this article on how difficult it is to retrieve a body.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/05/27/the-extraordinary-cost-of-retrieving-dead-bodies-from-mount-everest/?utm_term=.216993b64a1b

Some of these climbers seem to be a bit hippy leaning with their names!, eg Seaborn Beck Weathers

Anyways, he put it really well with his advice.


A body can be twice its weight after you dig it out of the ice and snow. Sounds like Lawless' body is in a valley though, 500metres from where he was last seen. Retrieving his body would be a virtual suicide mission at best.

If you have seen the film Everest (and you really should) Seaborn is the guy who was evacuated by helicopter at the end. He lost his right hand, all the fingers on his left, his nose, and parts of his feet.

jordata

banie01 wrote: »

Does one climb a mountain to be a hero to a club of climbers and have a great "top of the world" anecdote.
Or does one ensure that whatever happens that they are around to be there for their child!

I know which one is the "hero" in my book!

Thank you for wording that so well banie. Not all heroes wear capes.

josip

maxsmum wrote: »

I had no idea of the treacherousness of Everest or of the financial exploitation of the Sherpas. After watching all these documentaries over the weekend I cannot comprehend how anyone with a 4 year old child took this on, knowing the risk of death and that his body would not be returned to his family if he died.
I just don't get it.
Very, very sad.
How is this ever going to be explained to the child?

Years ago I was heading off to hike up Snowdon.
I wanted to go via Crib Goch but my 4 year old son said when i was leaving, "Come back safe daddy".
I went up the octogenarian track.

SusieBlue

God, seeing the video of the poor Sherpa struggling up the mountain with the monstrous bag of supplies & tents while the climbers followed hands free was hard to watch.
Awful to imagine what hardship a person has in life that they not only regularly scale Everest, but they do so carrying massive burdens & loads, putting themselves at even greater risk of death.
Forget Barretstown, the money should be donated to the Sherpas.

Wibbs

completedit wrote: »

It's really weird that people are so cut throat re: passing dying bodies, given that it is just a ****ing holiday.

It's anything but a holiday at that altitude. You're literally dying of hypoxia, your brain is shutting down, your lungs are becoming more filled with fluid, your legs are like lead. Indeed until Reinhold Messner climbed it first without oxygen many in the medical and scientific community reckoned it was impossible without supplementary oxygen.

bucketybuck

completedit wrote: »

It's really weird that people are so cut throat re: passing dying bodies, given that it is just a ****ing holiday.

I think you'd need to be up there to fully understand what is going on.

I have been above 20,000ft, when you get into higher altitude it really is a different world altogether when it comes to what you can and cannot do. Any exertion, even as simple as just moving your feet is hard, lifting your leg knee high just to step onto a boulder is harder again, running or pushing yourself for any length of time is simply out of question. The oxygen isn't there to fuel any exertion, you are immediately out of breath and energy and even the simplest of tasks require a lot of effort.

You'll see people trekking up Kilimanjaro, not a technical climb at all but all you can see is chains of people barely inching along putting one foot in front of the other. Think walking pace slowed down by half or even more, thats all they can do, they aren't used to the altitude and going faster could leave them in serious trouble. Everest is quite a bit higher than that again, and far more inhospitable.

So imagine being in a place where it is a serious effort just to walk forward, a place called the death zone where you know you will die if you don't get in and out as soon as you can. Then you come across somebody in trouble. You can barely lift your own feet, what do you think is going to happen if you try to support their weight as well?

And I'm not talking about the way up, but the way down, where you have been awake for 12 hours and dying for every last minute of it. Your oxygen is probably all gone and you need to get out of the death zone before it is too late. What do you do? You would want to be very confident in your strength to try and help that person, because in the death zone the likelihood is that helping them will mean two dead people instead of one.

The climbers know all this, so while it might be a holiday, in terms of mentality they aren't exactly sitting beside the pool weighing up their life choices.

antix80

"Everything that we raise above and beyond our expedition costs will go directly to Barretstown"
Bit of a summary of this hero.
Expedition cost: €40,000(ish).
Funds raised for expedition: €<40,000
Funds raised for Barretstown charity: €0.
Risk of death: 1 in 50.
Cost of evacuation/recovery: €750,000+
Now, there's no evidence Life Cover, Death in Service benefit and Mortgage protection won't pay out. But the guy's wife and kids have been deprived of a father and let's hope he left them in a good financial position.
Being charitable, we can just assume the guy had some sort of stress or worries that allowed him to justify taking on the trip. But media reporting shouldn't portray it as an unexpected tragedy or a hero who was doing it for charity. He wasn't. Seems like a bum.

GreeBo

antix80 wrote: »

"Everything that we raise above and beyond our expedition costs will go directly to Barretstown"
Bit of a summary of this hero.
Expedition cost: €40,000(ish).
Funds raised for expedition: €<40,000
Funds raised for Barretstown charity: €0.
Risk of death: 1 in 50.
Cost of evacuation/recovery: €750,000+
Now, there's no evidence Life Cover, Death in Service benefit and Mortgage protection won't pay out. But the guy's wife and kids have been deprived of a father and let's hope he left them in a good financial position.
Being charitable, we can just assume the guy had some sort of stress or worries that allowed him to justify taking on the trip. But media reporting shouldn't portray it as an unexpected tragedy or a hero who was doing it for charity. He wasn't. Seems like a bum.

Suppose he didn't die....what did Barretstown get then? Still nada?

Squatter

josip wrote: »

Years ago I was heading off to hike up Snowdon.
I wanted to go via Crib Goch but my 4 year old son said when i was leaving, "Come back safe daddy".
I went up the octogenarian track.

You could have got the mountain train from llanberis! (I did, after failing to complete the PYG track due to heavy snow) That way, your son could have gone with you!

tuxy

antix80 wrote: »

"Everything that we raise above and beyond our expedition costs will go directly to Barretstown"
Bit of a summary of this hero.
Expedition cost: €40,000(ish).
Funds raised for expedition: €<40,000
Funds raised for Barretstown charity: €0.
Risk of death: 1 in 50.
Cost of evacuation/recovery: €750,000+

I believe the fundriser was for 4 Irish people to climb Everest.
€40k pays for a company with fairly inexperienced sherpas that are know to exploit their workers.
If you want a more experienced company with a better reputation it's €70k - 80k

so minimum 160k, 320k if they decided to be sensible and use a good company.

They planned to also raise €25k for Barretstown

qxtasybe1nwfh2

I donated a couple of days ago and then a few hours later I found this thread, did a little bit more research and I applied for a refund. I donated it elsewhere as I felt guilty for taking it back essentially.

I feel awful for his wife, kids, family and friends. Even if they knew there was a possibility of this happening, I'm sure they didn't have a clue what to do when they heard the news and were holding on to hope. I'm really hoping that when it all settles down that we will hear that the money will be donated to charity. If I was his wife, I would hope someone would sit me down and explain that his body is gone and not filling her with false hope.

Maybe, as others have said, this is a terrible thing for me to think but I also think he was incredibly selfish to go with a pregnant wife and a 4 year old. Yes, life would be boring without risks but there's also choices to make. If you have kids, you have a responsibility to be there for them and you shouldn't take such risks. Also knowing, if it's true, that your insurance wouldn't cover your mortgage in this case is madness. It's not our job to think of their mortgage, it was theirs. That's not what I would have wanted my donation to go towards. There are people in worse situations that didn't put themselves there. Maybe that makes me heartless. Would I say that to the family, obviously not. But I do think since they are asking the public for donations and being deceitful by deleting comments, it's open to discussion.

lazygal

Why can't people just raise money for charity if that's what they want. Why haven't we all seen through the holidays dressed up as charity swizz by now?
People like this fella would want to cop onto themselves.

tuxy

lazygal wrote: »

Why can't people just raise money for charity if that's what they want. Why haven't we all seen through the holidays dressed up as charity swizz by now?
People like this fella would want to cop onto themselves.

Look at how many people are calling him a hero. Why wouldn't you say your dream holiday is actually for charity when people will love you for saying it.

lazygal

The egos of these types of people are unbelievable.

ToBeFrank123

I think GoFundMe and similar websites have a lot to answer for, facilitating dubious and irresponsible fundraising adventures such as climbing Everest. Its like giving someone a pat on the back as they head off to a disaster. And now facilitating fundraising to try recover his body which again could lead to more deaths. Stuff like this needs to stop.

antix80

tuxy wrote: »

Look at how many people are calling him a hero. Why wouldn't you say your dream holiday is actually for charity when people will love you for saying it.

In fairness I came to the same conclusion after reading the sponsor.me page. But upon reading their website, they're a bit more open about their goals

The goals of the Ireland on Everest Expedition are:

1. The ensure the safest possible passage of all Team members throughout the expedition
2. To climb Mount Everest as a Team, supporting each other throughout our training programme and on the mountain
3. To place as many members of the Expedition Team as possible on the summit of Mount Everest
4. To represent Ireland and our sponsors in all our interactions with people from around the world
5. [Goal related to X charity we select]
6. To raise awareness of mountaineering and the issues facing the Himalayan region through all our interactions, both personal and online.

Still, seems very cynical. They forgot to update the placeholder text. Seems a bit like ryanair and their scratchcards.

And goal #6 was a resounding success.

tuxy

antix80 wrote: »

And goal #6 was a resounding success.

#1, not so much.

Man Vs ManUre

SusieBlue wrote: »

God, seeing the video of the poor Sherpa struggling up the mountain with the monstrous bag of supplies & tents while the climbers followed hands free was hard to watch.
Awful to imagine what hardship a person has in life that they not only regularly scale Everest, but they do so carrying massive burdens & loads, putting themselves at even greater risk of death.
Forget Barretstown, the money should be donated to the Sherpas.

Those climbing sherpas are heroes beyond doubt, and many of them will die on Everest despite the fact that they are supreme climbers, because of their extra efforts, workloads, responsibility to the wealthy clients, their own reputations and even a dogged inbuilt determination to succeed that seems to be part of their psyche.
But in Nepal standards, climbing Sherpa is a highly paid job. In those few months of climbing season they are able to provide for their families for the rest of the year, and many of them live a happy and peaceful life back in their villages, even if they still work on their farms, trades etc.
Nepal is one of the poorest countries in Asia, but mountain tourism is its biggest attraction and source of income, and the climbers who take all these risks are at the top of the Nepal earners.
And I don’t mean to say anything other than positive about them.

Sunrise_Sunset

Josephine Full Cougar wrote: »

I donated a couple of days ago and then a few hours later I found this thread, did a little bit more research and I applied for a refund. I donated it elsewhere as I felt guilty for taking it back essentially.

I feel awful for his wife, kids, family and friends. Even if they knew there was a possibility of this happening, I'm sure they didn't have a clue what to do when they heard the news and were holding on to hope. I'm really hoping that when it all settles down that we will hear that the money will be donated to charity. If I was his wife, I would hope someone would sit me down and explain that his body is gone and not filling her with false hope.

Maybe, as others have said, this is a terrible thing for me to think but I also think he was incredibly selfish to go with a pregnant wife and a 4 year old. Yes, life would be boring without risks but there's also choices to make. If you have kids, you have a responsibility to be there for them and you shouldn't take such risks. Also knowing, if it's true, that your insurance wouldn't cover your mortgage in this case is madness. It's not our job to think of their mortgage, it was theirs. That's not what I would have wanted my donation to go towards. There are people in worse situations that didn't put themselves there. Maybe that makes me heartless. Would I say that to the family, obviously not. But I do think since they are asking the public for donations and being deceitful by deleting comments, it's open to discussion.

How do you apply for a refund? i thought all donations were non-refundable.

Hoboo

Sunrise_Sunset wrote: »

How do you apply for a refund? i thought all donations were non-refundable.

So it clearly states on the site, was just thinking that

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

adox wrote: »

I was always under the impression that rescuing bodies from Everest beyond a certain height was a near impossibility and hugely risky at lower levels.

Is there no one to advise the family on the realities? The go fund me page has hit six figures. Can that money be returned?

I have no climbing to experience whatsoever but was always fascinated by people wanting to climb the likes of Everest. The amount of work that is prepped for them, ropes ladders etc before they try and summit. The human traffic jams at times on the mountain. It all kind of took the romance out of it. Having said that, the sheer height and danger of it never lessened despite the climbers more or less being handheld up and down. Having said that I have nothing bit admiration for people who do manage it.

It all puts into perspective what an amazing feat it was by Tenzing Norgay and Edmund Hillary.

It’s a very sad story. A hugely risky undertaking that has ended in tragedy. RIP to the climber and his family. I just hope that some common sense is brought to this sooner rather than later. If his remains are most likely unrecoverable then the family should be informed as soon as possible.

As stated at the start I am no climber and have no climbing experience so my opinions are purely based on reading and viewing and I have no real world experience in any of it.

Yes. A woman I knew died whilst fundraising to raise money for a legit but expensive cancer treatment. The donors were given the option of either getting their donation back when she died or giving the donation to a charity that she had nominated. But that was her family being upfront and honest. I’m not sure if they had to do that or could that money have gone to her estate?

tuxy

Hoboo wrote: »

So it clearly states on the site, was just thinking that

The person who owns the page can offer a refund. So you could try contacting them.
If you paid by credit/debit card you could try disputing the translation.