Security Camera Question

Johnboy1951

I am planning for use of a few security cameras to monitor access to my site and house.
I will not be using any cloud service provided by the camera manufacturers.
I have no intention of using any 'app' provided by the manufacturer.
All devices will be wired and none using wireless.
This attitude of course considerably reduces the range of cameras available.
I accept that limitation in order to have complete control in-house.

What is the feeling here about the resolution of security cameras?
Is it desirable to use 1080p cameras or would 720p be sufficient?

Is the level of network traffic a concern when using higher resolution devices?

My present intention is to manage the cameras from a Linux file server running the likes of Shinobi or Zonealarm, with the possibility to store off site as might be required ... but all under my own control and to my own 'cloud' service.

Any thoughts on camera specifications?
Movement sensing will be done by the software so not necessary in camera.

bk

Sounds like you are looking for more traditional CCTV cameras that use Power Over Ethernet (POE).

Hikvision get recommended a lot over on the Home Security Forum for these types of cameras. They have a massive range of different cameras depending on your needs.

If you don't get more answers here, then folks over on that forum might be able to help.

Johnboy1951

bk wrote: »

Sounds like you are looking for more traditional CCTV cameras that use Power Over Ethernet (POE).

Hikvision get recommended a lot over on the Home Security Forum for these types of cameras. They have a massive range of different cameras depending on your needs.

If you don't get more answers here, then folks over on that forum might be able to help.

I do not have a POE set up presently, and most of the cheaper cameras have separate power inputs which I am comfortable with.
If needed adapters can be used to change from one to the other.

My question was about the resolution used for security cameras and whether 720p is deemed sufficient or is 1080p regarded as essential?

I already have
https://www.gearbest.com/surveillance-camera-system/pp_009952335957.html?wid=1433363
and am quite happy with its behaviour.
I have been using Xeoma software for test purposes until I get the software side of things finalised.

They also do a 1080p version
https://www.gearbest.com/ip-cameras/pp_009144605885.html?wid=1433363#goodsDetail

which is also very reasonably priced.

The main question though ...... is it consider essential to use 1080p cameras to help identify intruders or will 720p do, generally speaking?

bk

Now, this is just my opinion, others might disagree and I'm not a "home security professional".

Given how common cameras have become, most intruders today cover their faces. Baseball hats, hoodies, etc. So personally I wouldn't stress too much over picture quality, it probably won't be much use either way after the fact.

Here are what I think the main uses for cameras like this are:
- Deterrent. Hey I've got cameras and a home security system, go try burgle a less secure home. These won't deter the most brazen of thieves, but can definitely deter more opportunistic ones, which actually make up the majority of burglaries.
- Confirmation. If they do break in while you are out and the alarm goes off and you get a notification. You can use the cameras to confirm that it is a real break in and not just another false alarm.
- You could then use the two way voice on the camera to perhaps frighten away a burglar.
- Finally you can call the Gardai and tell them there is an active burglary and you can see them on the camera. A visually confirmed active burglary will typically get a much higher priority and faster response from the guards then just a basic alarm system going off, those of had too many false alarms for the guards to be bothered with them anymore.

I feel after the fact, it is too late and you probably won't get any satisfaction anyway. It isn't like CSI where you are going enhance, enhance and the Gardai raiding some place.

If there is only €7 difference, then I'd go for 1080p, why not. But also it probably isn't a big deal.

bk

BTW POE cameras aren't much more expensive and would likely be far more reliable and cause less issues then wifi cameras:

https://www.gearbest.com/poe-camera-_gear/

Depending on how many wifi cameras you used, it could end up really straining your wifi network.

Johnboy1951

bk wrote: »

BTW POE cameras aren't much more expensive and would likely be far more reliable and cause less issues then wifi cameras:

https://www.gearbest.com/poe-camera-_gear/

Depending on how many wifi cameras you used, it could end up really straining your wifi network.

I think you might have misunderstood ..... I will not be using wifi. If I buy cameras with wifi I hope to disable it.

I will be using the cameras wired with ethernet cable, but they will not necessarily be powered over that cable. Most of the cheaper cameras have separate power inputs.
If I do buy a POE camera I can inject the power from a separate PSU, in the media press for it.
Presently I do not intend to get a POE switch.
One never knows what might happen in future.


On the matter of intruders/visitors ...... we have had some drive in and begin 'to look about', essentially casing the place pretending to be lost.
It is nice to be forewarned.
Also of course having knowledge of those you missed but might want to meet is also good though not a security issue.

bk

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I think you might have misunderstood ..... I will not be using wifi. If I buy cameras with wifi I hope to disable it.

Ah, I totally missed that the cameras you linked to had a RJ45 port! Yep, crossed wires there Looks nice.

Stoner

Johnboy1951 wrote:

The main question though ...... is it consider essential to use 1080p cameras to help identify intruders or will 720p do, generally speaking?

Generally speaking, what do cameras do anyway? Do you expect to catch people easier, provide better quality to the police? That doesn't really make as much difference as people think.

The higher the resolution the more bandwidth you'll use. You can end up with a lot of cameras on an app that struggles to refresh.
A faster response is often preferred to a clearer one, particularly when the clearer one still isn't good enough to identify someone from.

If you want to get someone on a camera you need a pan tilt zoom unit with a motor unless it's in a certain area where the focal length and the physical area is fixed allowing for a decent fixed focus.

Personally I'd be happy with a lower specification particularly if I could get things working quickly.

Johnboy1951

While searching about last night I began to come across a number of 5 Meg cameras which of course would be capable of much better resolution.
How far do you go? I won't go there - yet!

On the matter of network bandwidth, I think all should be ok with the monitoring software using a low res sub stream generated by the camera, and when triggered by an event then the high res stream would be recorded.

The biggest difficulty I have is believing all the ads say about these cheap cameras. I have already been burned ..... receiving a device not as specified in the ad.
I did get a refund and gave the camera away in the hope it might get used.

I have the 720p Gocomma camera (links above) so will go with that brand again for the 1080p version, in the hope that they are similar in all respects except for the res.

Thanks for the responses.

bk

Just on the point of higher resolution and bandwidth. While I can't speak for every camera on the market, the ones I have, you can opt to run them at a lower resolution, for lower bandwidth. For instance my Logitech Circle cameras can be set to 360, 720, 1080. My Yi Cameras can be set to SD or HD. Nice as it gives you options.

Technically this is relatively easy to do, so any half decent camera should support this option. No guarantee, could be worth checking out the cameras manual/app before buying to confirm.

Also as you've found it isn't just resolution, but also the megapixel count of the camera and also other factors like frame rate (fps) and as Stoner points out you can get into really expensive systems with pan/tilt/zoom and focal lengths, etc.

Johnboy1951

bk wrote: »

Just on the point of higher resolution and bandwidth. While I can't speak for every camera on the market, the ones I have, you can opt to run them at a lower resolution, for lower bandwidth. For instance my Logitech Circle cameras can be set to 360, 720, 1080. My Yi Cameras can be set to SD or HD. Nice as it gives you options.

Technically this is relatively easy to do, so any half decent camera should support this option. No guarantee, could be worth checking out the cameras manual/app before buying to confirm.

Also as you've found it isn't just resolution, but also the megapixel count of the camera and also other factors like frame rate (fps) and as Stoner points out you can get into really expensive systems with pan/tilt/zoom and focal lengths, etc.

Yes the cameras I linked have two output streams. At least the 720p has.
One is full res - 1280x720 - and the lower one is chosen between 640x352 and 320x176 in the camera settings. As you can see other parameters are also adjustable such as bitrate.
I can access those settings from any browser on any OS.
Unfortunately that is not the case with lots of cameras .... one lot require IE plus ActiveX in order to log in using the browser!

I use the lower resolution for motion detection in the backend software and when triggered it records the high res stream.

[CLICK to enlarge]

The high horse brigade

Hey Johnboy, as a security professional specialising in cctv I
have invested my time in setting up my own home into the fully open source software Zoneminder which works with just about camera. It's right up your street. It's late, I'll chat tomorrow about it.

Stoner

bk wrote:

but also the megapixel count of the camera

Correct using the megapixel count is a very common way for installers to talk about camera spec.

If you use a DVR you can record and review in "high" definition at home.

You might not stream at this rate. So a poe camera has value if you have recorders in your home and your network is a private cabled one.

Streaming obviously depends on your internet connection, some cameras only stream online so the amount of cameras you have and your internet connection becomes an issue.

Johnboy1951

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Hey Johnboy, as a security professional specialising in cctv I
have invested my time in setting up my own home into the fully open source software Zoneminder which works with just about camera. It's right up your street. It's late, I'll chat tomorrow about it.

Dang! and to think I could have picked your brain much earlier in the process and saved myself a lot of research and errors

I look forward to this. Thank you.

I am leaning towards a GUI solution for managing the system, because I want others in the household, who are only comfortable with GUI, to be able to manage it in my absence.
Yes, it will still be running on Linux and libre software unless I hit a serious insurmountable roadblock.

Stoner

Very interested in your set up too High Horse.

My own ip camera system is pretty rubbish. Expensive set up but the app is muck, at least it's all wired up.

The cameras i use are all poe ones.

What HW runs the OS?

Have you used MotioneyeOS ? Does it work with Hikvision IP cameras

Both seem to work.on a raspberry pi 3B that's what I'd like to run mine one

The high horse brigade

I work in the business installing many systems, Videoedge, Avigilon, Milestone, Geovision, Axis, Dahua, Hikvision and others so for my home use I went with Zoneminder. I went with it mostly for a challenge but also because it was open source and could integrate with Home Assistant. I can add the motion detection of the cameras to Home Assistant as sensors and use them to trigger lights, play audio etc, it's a black canvas and I love messing about :-)

I installed it about a year ago on Centos following the docs. I have a 1u Dell r210 with a q6600 quad core and 8GB ram I bought on eBay second hand years ago as a Plex server but I've now moved to Emby on a Hetzner dedi with media in the cloud. Once you get it running and install your DB through CLI you have a web GUI and most of the configuring of cameras and recording is done in the browser

I have a mix match of cameras, 2x 1MP Ubiquiti bullets, 1x 2MP illustra bullut and 1x 2MP Dahua bullet. All cameras are added twice, low bitrate b&w stream and high bitrate HD stream. I have the low stream set to do motion detection (Modect mode) and the HD stream set to motion record (Nodect) when triggered by the low stream. My admin user sees all 8 streams but any family users I created including myself I only let see the HD so we only see 4 cameras

We use the Zmninja app on our Android phones, it's a third party app but works very well and has great support. It's also able to run on Linux, I have it installed on my laptop but rarely use it. I also have Tiny Cam Monitor installed for live view on my Shield TV and Mibox on the sitting room and kitchen TVs.

A few weeks ago I added an event server. This pushes notifications and snapshots to our phones and does object identification, car, van, person, dog etc. I discovered when setting this up that there is no maintainer for the RHEL repo so it's a few versions behind master and I'm missing out on the latest facial detection features that can be added to the event server. The developer and the developers of Zmninja all develop for it on Ubuntu so I'd advise to go with that rather than RHEL. The developers and Pliable pixels the developer of Zmninja are very helpful on the Slack channel should you have any difficulty.

It's far from perfect, is a little clunky and is not very efficient on the server compared to the commercial products but I'm loving it. I'm planning on rebuilding the server from scratch at some stage on Ubuntu but far I'm too busy at the moment.

Black_Knight

The high horse brigade wrote: »

I work in the business installing many systems, Videoedge, Avigilon, Milestone, Geovision, Axis, Dahua, Hikvision and others so for my home use I went with Zoneminder. I went with it mostly for a challenge but also because it was open source and could integrate with Home Assistant. I can add the motion detection of the cameras to Home Assistant as sensors and use them to trigger lights, play audio etc, it's a black canvas and I love messing about :-)

I installed it about a year ago on Centos following the docs. I have a 1u Dell r210 with a q6600 quad core and 8GB ram I bought on eBay second hand years ago as a Plex server but I've now moved to Emby on a Hetzner dedi with media in the cloud. Once you get it running and install your DB through CLI you have a web GUI and most of the configuring of cameras and recording is done in the browser

I have a mix match of cameras, 2x 1MP Ubiquiti bullets, 1x 2MP illustra bullut and 1x 2MP Dahua bullet. All cameras are added twice, low bitrate b&w stream and high bitrate HD stream. I have the low stream set to do motion detection (Modect mode) and the HD stream set to motion record (Nodect) when triggered by the low stream. My admin user sees all 8 streams but any family users I created including myself I only let see the HD so we only see 4 cameras

We use the Zmninja app on our Android phones, it's a third party app but works very well and has great support. It's also able to run on Linux, I have it installed on my laptop but rarely use it. I also have Tiny Cam Monitor installed for live view on my Shield TV and Mibox on the sitting room and kitchen TVs.

A few weeks ago I added an event server. This pushes notifications and snapshots to our phones and does object identification, car, van, person, dog etc. I discovered when setting this up that there is no maintainer for the RHEL repo so it's a few versions behind master and I'm missing out on the latest facial detection features that can be added to the event server. The developer and the developers of Zmninja all develop for it on Ubuntu so I'd advise to go with that rather than RHEL. The developers and Pliable pixels the developer of Zmninja are very helpful on the Slack channel should you have any difficulty.

It's far from perfect, is a little clunky and is not very efficient on the server compared to the commercial products but I'm loving it. I'm planning on rebuilding the server from scratch at some stage on Ubuntu but far I'm too busy at the moment.

Not sure whether to thank you or curse you.

Sounds similar to my setup, with extra frills. I've a nuc with 8gb ram running Ubuntu, with Plex, home assistant and camera software. I might try switch it out and give zone minder a go.

Stoner

It seems that an rPi 3B+ with 5 x 2MP cameras, Ubuntu is possible.

I like the home assistant interference you have. Also adding each one twice, I was wondering how to address this, getting to two streams from each one is a great fix


You've a lot of layers for on your system to attempt in one bite.

Did you ever try it in a simple set up. It looks nice but anything I've seen on it says it's a bit of a pig to set up, but great when working, saving to local SSDs etc

Johnboy1951

I tried Shinobi on a fresh Ubuntu install yesterday and got it somewhat working but was not satisfied.
I decided to try BlueCherry and that installation clashed with Shinpbi and caused all sorts of hassle.

Did a fresh install and installed Zoneminder.
That took a lot of manual entry on command line which really should not be be necessary. I had no clue what I was doing some of the time, just followed blindly!
Not something I am comfortable with.

I found out the old laptop I used to test it is not powerful enough for the video elements of three cameras to be shown reasonably well, so I will try something else later.

I ordered the 1080p camera I linked to earlier, so hopefully I get the correct camera which will make life much easier for me.

The high horse brigade

Stoner wrote: »

It seems that an rPi 3B+ with 5 x 2MP cameras, Ubuntu is possible.

I like the home assistant interference you have. Also adding each one twice, I was wondering how to address this, getting to two steams from each one.


You've a lot of layers for on your system to attempt in one bite.

Did you ever try it in a simple set up. It looks nice but anything I've seen on it says it's a bit of a pig to set up, but great when working, saving to local SSDs etc

Most cameras have 2 streams. Log into the camera web GUI to see. You will need to find the rtsp URL of each stream to add to Zoneminder. It's different for each brand of camera. Google it. I think I installed some other CCTV software on my laptop to connect and show the rtsp info for my Ubiquiti cameras to use in Zoneminder, if the name comes to me I'l let you know

Something I didn't mention before is that as my server has several NICs I have all my cameras in a private subnet that is not accessible from my LAN. I have a POE switch plugged into a second NIC on the server. This is the way corporate cameras networks are configured for security reasons. I can only access the Zoneminder server from LAN, not the cameras.

Johnboy1951

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Most cameras have 2 streams. Log into the camera web GUI to see. You will need to find the rtsp URL of each stream to add to Zoneminder. It's different for each brand of camera. Google it. I think I installed some other CCTV software on my laptop to connect and show the rtsp info for my Ubiquiti cameras to use in Zoneminder, if the name comes to me I'l let you know

Something I didn't mention before is that as my server has several NICs I have all my cameras in a private subnet that is not accessible from my LAN. I have a POE switch plugged into a second NIC on the server. This is the way corporate cameras networks are configured for security reasons. I can only access the Zoneminder server from LAN, not the cameras.

I am glad to read you have your cameras on a separate sub net.
That was my intention but had not read anything about it previously.

I posted a pic earlier showing the management page of a camera with the two streams and the editable options for that camera, for anyone who wishes to see what it looks like.

I installed Xeoma to help get information about my cameras. It is a paid for app in its full form, but is usable for basic testing etc within the limitations that are free to use. I used it to test motion detection settings and recording settings for the areas I am monitoring. It has proved very useful.
It is the best software I have tested so far, but too costly for my pocket.
If money was not a factor I would use Xeoma I think.

Stoner

That's all a bit to much of a knowledge gap for me at the moment. I don't know how to do too many of the steps required.

Agree and the network set up, mine was installed like that anyway (not by me)

I think I'll have to wuss out of this one until someones pop up a video on YouTube with one box using Ubuntu, an install of the software and connected a couple of IP cameras,

Hopefully it shows up soon
Great job!

uck51js9zml2yt

Stoner wrote: »

Generally speaking, what do cameras do anyway? Do you expect to catch people easier, provide better quality to the police? That doesn't really make as much difference as people think.

The higher the resolution the more bandwidth you'll use. You can end up with a lot of cameras on an app that struggles to refresh.
A faster response is often preferred to a clearer one, particularly when the clearer one still isn't good enough to identify someone from.

If you want to get someone on a camera you need a pan tilt zoom unit with a motor unless it's in a certain area where the focal length and the physical area is fixed allowing for a decent fixed focus.

Personally I'd be happy with a lower specification particularly if I could get things working quickly.

A scum bag vandalised my property a few years ago.
CCTV caught the person with the judge commenting on the high quality of photos.
The person got 4 years.

Lucifer

There is a bit of a learning curve with it alright but it is worth having a go at.

Follow this https://wiki.zoneminder.com/Ubuntu_Server_16.04_64-bit_with_Zoneminder_1.32.x_the_easy_way

All you need is a fresh install of ubuntu, select LAMP and SSH server when installing. Then it is just a case of copy a block of text and a couple of lines of code.

Where are you based? If you are not far I would show you. Im south dublin


Also to add I have a couple of zoneminder setups between work/friends places and I run node red to check the api to monitor any disconnects etc. Have not tried zoneminder event server. What are you using for the object detection? something I have been interested in messing with.

Stoner

Lucifer wrote:

All you need is a fresh install of ubuntu, select LAMP and SSH server when installing. Then it is just a case of copy a block of text and a couple of lines of code.

Sounds great similar to how I installed home assistant.
Might pop a pm to you at some stage .

Stoner

Donald Stocky Lumberjack wrote:

A scum bag vandalised my property a few years ago. CCTV caught the person with the judge commenting on the high quality of photos. The person got 4 years.

Fair play. I had one where I got a great picture of the guys breaking into cars. Nothing came if it, got a letter last month saying I'm one of the people who had an unsolved case, some sort of apology. I posted on it at the time crime at the time


Great to see CCTV at it's best working lucky they didn't have hoodies. Did you have the camera hidden?

The high horse brigade

This is the event notification, it uses web sockets. It's not part of Zoneminder it is an addon for ZMNinja made by PliablePixels
https://github.com/pliablepixels/zmhacks/wiki/ZoneMinder-Secure-Websocket-Event-Notification-Server

This is the machine learning
https://github.com/pliablepixels/zmeventnotification

I setup 2 PCs for 2 friends using Debian and Zoneminder over 8 years ago...

One is on a 2003 Celeron with only one camera behind the NBS three network and is humming away..

For my other mate, there is 5 cameras, and the Guards, asked for some footage for something that occurred outside the mates front.. One of the things the detective commented was the time stamp, the beauty of linux is when it is setup it is to an NTP server, I always have mine to ie.pool.ntp.org

You should install the free version of Pulseway, this allows you to monitor the server from your phone/pc, its run at system level, so you can even turn on/restart server etc.

And perform basic hardening on the servers, acls, etc..

I have a paid account with https://www.shodan.io, which I use to monitor Clients networks etc, and the amount of Hikvisions out there in Ireland with the default credentials not changed is scary..

eusap

Having high MP camera is not always the best option a 2MP camera will perform better day/night where as a 5mp camera will have a better picture in day time and night time it will not be as sharp.

For e.g. my 5mp camera at front of house can read a registration plate in day time (crystal clear) but at night time not a hope. At back of house a 2mp camera can read plate in day time and also at night time. There are many factors to consider IR lights etc....

Also if you plan to use Hikvision you should google first about security risks..... Most households have nothing to worry about but it does make you think....

paulbok

Some great ideas there High Horse Brigade, like Stoner, a bit beyond me at the moment but hopefully Will get around to figuring out all the steps.
Can I ask you a few questions on a new install I'll be getting around to soon?
Renovating some old stables approx 30M from the house into a home office, workshop and storeroom.
Going to build a comms cabinet in the office so I can move as much kit out of the house as possible and run a number of CCTV cameras from there. Approx 4 will be setup around the main house and 4 around the stables.
I will be running a number of cat 6 cables in a duct between the two buildings for internet connection and for cameras, but would I be better connecting those at the house to a Poe switch there and piggyback on the backbone connection?
Currently planning to run a cable for each camera direct to the comms cabinet so if I decide in the future to change from a setup similar to yours with Zoneminder and Home Assistant, to a dedicated NVR system, the cameras can just plug straight in.
Which is better in your experience?
Anything else I should watch out for?
How many cameras can Zoneminder run?
Might run a fiber cable between the two while I'm at it for a future link, but not planning on getting the kit needed for a full fibre network just yet.

Lucifer

You would be fine running a link between the 2 and have a switch in each building. Either zoneminder or a nvr will work with either way you wire it.

Just to give you an idea of traffic, with 8 cameras, a mix of 720/1080, at about 15 fps the network traffic to zoneminder is about 1 MB/s (8 Mbps)

Another setup with 5 cameras, 1 x 4mp, 1 x 3mp 1 x 2mp and 2 x 1mp, all around 15 fps, is about 1.2 MB/s during the day.

If you use gigabit switches you get a transfer rate of 125MB/s (1000Mbps) so a few cameras streaming over is not going to be a massive load on the network.

Would even be fine with a 100Mbps link

Zoneminder does not have any limitations on the number of cameras, it's purely down to your hardware. I have read of setups into hundreds.

One thing when you set it up, use h264 video pass through which cuts down on cpu usage