No point in trying to better yourself is there ?

Ush1

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Ok so it's hardly Lionel Messi money, but it's still 2 grand a week, almost 3 times the average wage in this country, arguing that you're poor on that kind of money is disingenuous to say the least.

I never said poor, there's a big area between poor and wealthy. 100k a year you're still working hard and paying bills. It's very convenient that the left leaning among us think it's fair to further tax the already most taxed demographics in Ireland, knowing that they aren't among them (and likely lack the ambition to ever join them).

Why don't the "poor" contribute? Most other countries you pay some form of income tax no matter how small an amount you earn. Skin in the game an all that...

Wanderer78

Ush1 wrote:

I never said poor, there's a big area between poor and wealthy. 100k a year you're still working hard and paying bills. It's very convenient that the left leaning among us think it's fair to further tax the already most taxed demographics in Ireland, knowing that they aren't among them (and likely lack the ambition to ever join them).

Tis time to start taxing the land owning classes and corporations me thinks, the average Joe can't pay for everything

Leroy42

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Tis time to start taxing the land owning classes and corporations me thinks, the average Joe can't pay for everything

We already do!

Wanderer78

Leroy42 wrote:

We already do!

A land value tax is desperately needed, and many of those corporations could spare an extra few quid

Leroy42

Well, we have the local property tax and businesses pay rates.

In terms of the corporations, you can argue that they should pay more tax but I think we can agree that they pay tax.

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

Somebody said an income of €100k gross would qualify somebody as "wealthy". Somebody responded by saying it's not but nobody, as far as I can see, said people on €100k are "poor". You'd be a very lucky person indeed in Dublin if €100k gross made you "wealthy" (because of high marginal tax rates and higher basic living costs). At most - for instance, if you had no mortgage or childcare costs - you could be 'comfortable' on €100k gross.

A come on now, if I had no childcare or mortgage costs I'd be a little more than comfortable with 1100 a week after tax in my back pocket!

I'm not getting at you or advocating that you should be subsidising some skank in their pyjamas any more than you already are. Sometimes people just don't see the wood for the trees though. If you're paying 2 and half grand for childcare then obviously the maths works out favourably for you to do so, if you were actually loosing money by doing it I presume you'd stop. Kids are also quite decently subsidised in this country via childrens allowance.

It's odd that you praise other countries with state subsidised childcare while in the same sentence criticising Ireland for having state subsidised childcare!

It's just human nature, everybody wants something from the state, we all know that someone has to pay for that something but we want that someone to be someone else. You want cheaper childcare for yourself at someone else's expense for example.

It's hard to find someone who'll tell you they're well off, bar the Messi's of this world who just can't hide it. By any objective measure - you're doing OK. Subjectively you may well argue differently, you may have a big mortgage say, but it's buying you a nice house, you may have a big car loan, but you're driving a nice car and so on.

It's like Mr Burns in the Simpsons - I'd swap everything I have for just a little bit more!

klaaaz

Ush1 wrote: »

Why don't the "poor" contribute? Most other countries you pay some form of income tax no matter how small an amount you earn. Skin in the game an all that...

If you tax the poor more, it won't bring in much plus they would be disproportionately hit harder. We're trying to reduce poverty, not increase it! How can they give what they don't have?

tjhook

klaaaz wrote: »

If you tax the poor more, it won't bring in much plus they would be disproportionately hit harder. We're trying to reduce poverty, not increase it! How can they give what they don't have?

I don't think people want to specifically tax the poor. However, over a third of the workforce pay no income tax. 29% of workers pay no income tax or USC. The tax base is too narrow. Piling more taxes on the same people doesn't broaden that base.

klaaaz

tjhook wrote: »

I don't think people want to specifically tax the poor. However, over a third of the workforce pay no income tax. 29% of workers pay no income tax or USC. The tax base is too narrow. Piling more taxes on the same people doesn't broaden that base.

There's probably a reason for that 29%, they earn a pittance and it is they who pay disproportionately more in indirect taxes like VAT on their income than others do.

Grayson

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Before tax and they pay more tax than others. It is actually 1163 a week after tax. You need to workout after tax salary because it is not equivalent to 3 times the average worker. We have a very progressive tax system the more you earn the higher percentage of tax you pay.

It's progressive but not that progressive. We could do with a few more bands. So wages up to 20k are taxed at a certain amount. Between 20-30 is another amount and keep it going up to 100k. It would spread it out more.

Neon_Lights

johnmck wrote: »

I'm a teacher working in Dublin. Worked all my life from the age of 15. Re-educated myself to become a teacher. Took me years to get a full time post.
Very happy with my job now, after a bit of struggling to secure a permement post. I love helping students achieve their goals.
I've had to move several times in the past 2 years due to landlords and crazy co-habitants. I've handed in my tenancy notice in the latest rodent / bug invested kip I'm living in Dublin. Technically at the end if the month I'm homeless. Luckily I can move my stuff back to the home house, where my elderly father still lives. But I can't stay there. Some friends have offered to put me up for the summer. Im lucky in that sense. My cousin has offered me cheap rent on his cottage down the country. But it's a 2.5 hour commute to Dublin. What the hell do I do come September? Rent another room in a house with complete strangers. I can't afford a place of my own. Or risk my life from tiredness of falling asleep behind the wheel commuting !
Sometimes I feel I'd be better off having not tried to better myself, developed some sort of disorder or health condition, or had 5 kids and got myself on the local authority housing list and have been a social welfare lifer.
Don't seem to be able to get on with my life for having to tried to be a better person. I'm not expecting sympathy, just that people see the unfair society we are living in. Guessing I'll might get a few haters for this , but it's my truth.

Straya canntt!!

Grayson

tjhook wrote: »

I don't think people want to specifically tax the poor. However, over a third of the workforce pay no income tax. 29% of workers pay no income tax or USC. The tax base is too narrow. Piling more taxes on the same people doesn't broaden that base.

The solution isn't to start ramping up tax on the people who earn the least.

I think tax credits are a sensible idea. It gives everyone the same starting point.

martingriff

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

The government should be building 100,000 houses per year to help people like you out.

It's the one thing that is unavoidable in a society. Everyone needs a place to live (and food as well).

You can argue about what the dole should be, or cost over runs on a hospital, or new roads being built, or hospital waiting times, or lack of public transport, or rural broadband or whatever. Housing is the number one issue that should be sorted out, and this government has absolutely failed in that regard.

Social and affordable housing should have been the number one priority over the past 5 years. And it's the number one reason I want this government to get a kicking in the elections next week.

But governments don't build houses they help with policies and they lack there. But we need a functioning industry of developers builders and lending to get the housing needs sorted. But don't forget land is a finite resource so where to build and how to you make people want to move

tjhook

Grayson wrote: »

The solution isn't to start ramping up tax on the people who earn the least.

I think tax credits are a sensible idea. It gives everyone the same starting point.

"The people who earn the least" seems to currently mean a third of the workforce. Why? Why not two thirds? Why not a tenth? We can define "the people who earn the least" to mean the bottom 99% if we want to.



Very few countries, if any, have such a narrow tax base.

Wanderer78

Leroy42 wrote: »

Well, we have the local property tax and businesses pay rates.

In terms of the corporations, you can argue that they should pay more tax but I think we can agree that they pay tax.

we do indeed, but from seriously vague understanding of land value taxes, this is a better way to manage the use of land

we can indeed, but i do think this is being very poorly managed, and simply isnt high enough, but i suspect this will be addressed soon enough

Ush1

klaaaz wrote: »

If you tax the poor more, it won't bring in much plus they would be disproportionately hit harder. We're trying to reduce poverty, not increase it! How can they give what they don't have?

I'm aware it wouldn't yield a huge amount, the point is the moral hazard and civic responsibility. You don't value what you don't pay for, no matter how small a contribution, every working person should make one. As I said, skin in the game.

Old diesel

Ush1 wrote: »

klaaaz wrote: »

If you tax the poor more, it won't bring in much plus they would be disproportionately hit harder. We're trying to reduce poverty, not increase it! How can they give what they don't have?

I'm aware it wouldn't yield a huge amount, the point is the moral hazard and civic responsibility. You don't value what you don't pay for, no matter how small a contribution, every working person should make one. As I said, skin in the game.

If someone is working honestly in a low paid job - I don't think we need to worry about moral hazard and civic respossibility.

We do however need to worry about someone in a low paid job having no money the day before pay day.

Edit if we insist that someone who only has 20 quid left over every week pays 15 quid a week tax and an extra 10 for social house rent* - they might have to skip a lunch to feed their child.

Winning strategy

*people moan about this as well

Ush1

Old diesel wrote: »

If someone is working honestly in a low paid job - I don't think we need to worry about moral hazard and civic respossibility.

We do however need to worry about someone in a low paid job having no money the day before pay day.

You can be in a well paid job and have no money before pay day.

Moral hazard should always be a consideration with regards taxation. Sure why not just tax the wealthiest 10 people in the country 90%? They can afford it after all.

suicide_circus

klaaaz wrote: »

There's probably a reason for that 29%, they earn a pittance and it is they who pay disproportionately more in indirect taxes like VAT on their income than others do.

Grayson wrote: »

The solution isn't to start ramping up tax on the people who earn the least.

I think tax credits are a sensible idea. It gives everyone the same starting point.

we dont have the luxury of excluding almost a third of the workforce from the tax base. Its utterly absurd.

mariaalice

Some of the responses in this thread has been really interesting, we all live in a bubble to a certain extent. The starting salary is so so not great but not bad, but to some, a teacher salary with a permanent job is almsot millionair status and they can't understand why the OP is complaining despite the fact they are finding it very difficult to find somewhere to rent and even if they did it would be 50% of their salary.

sbsquarepants

martingriff wrote: »

. But don't forget land is a finite resource so where to build and how to you make people want to move

Land is a of course finite, but it's not in anything remotely approaching short supply in Ireland, even in Dublin.

We are a little over half the size of England with less than a tenth of the population. Land is not an issue.

I wonder is it a case of the grass being greener elsewhere. Someone’s in a crap job so they re-educated themselves and got a better job but still feel dissatisfied. It’s all very well saying that the government should be doing more. They cannot do everything for every citizen. When they try to broaden the tax net and introduce household and water charges, they were vilified and we were subjected to months of feral behavior by those who expected most for free.

I can’t offer the OP any suggestions other than stick with it and I’m sure a solution will be found.

tjhook

Deleted User wrote: »

I can’t offer the OP any suggestions other than stick with it and I’m sure a solution will be found.

Unfortunately, solutions are usually funded by adding taxes and charges to those who strive to succeed. I.e. the OP.

tjhook

tjhook wrote: »

Unfortunately, solutions are usually funded by adding taxes and charges to those who strive to succeed. I.e. the OP.

And what’s wrong with that? I don’t think that OP expects others to pay their rent!

Ulysses Gaze

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Funny how socialist leaning countries like Sweden tend to have the best standards of living in the world

They tax the hell out of their people though to run their system. Finland and Sweden have some of the highest tax rates in the world.

tjhook

Deleted User wrote: »

And what’s wrong with that? I don’t think that OP expects others to pay their rent!

Sorry, you were saying that a solution would be found and I assumed you meant that the state would facilitate such a solution. My point is that if something is done by the state to make housing more affordable, it is likely to be taken back with the other hand. It would be unusual to see the people like the OP (i.e. the people who pay all the tax) being the beneficiary.


I think the practical solutions are to either join with a friend/partner to share the costs of accommodation, or temporarily live in another country to save.

Captain Chaos

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

They tax the hell out of their people though to run their system. Finland and Sweden have some of the highest tax rates in the world.

But look what they get for their taxes.

We get feck all for ours, it's all wasted and squandered.

I'd pay more tax in return for better services.

Ulysses Gaze

Captain Chaos wrote: »

But look what they get for their taxes.

We get feck all for ours, it's all wasted and squandered.

I'd pay more tax in return for better services.

You won't get it here no matter how high the taxes.
We are incapable of doing things properly here because of the innate "It'll do" mentality that a significant number of the population seem to have. We accept mediocrity in our politicians at all levels and we accept a public service that is, with certain exceptions, completely dysfunctional.

We sit at the barstool and smack our hands on the bar counter, but will do very little to change things.

You could tax everyone here at 70% and we'd still be in the same mess.

suicide_circus

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

You won't get it here no matter how high the taxes.
We are incapable of doing things properly here because of the innate "It'll do" mentality that a significant number of the population seem to have. We accept mediocrity in our politicians at all levels and we accept a public service that is, with certain exceptions, completely dysfunctional.

We sit at the barstool and smack our hands on the bar counter, but will do very little to change things.

You could tax everyone here at 70% and we'd still be in the same mess.

100% agree. it's a mentality issue. its the reason i dont think we can have a nuclear power station.

martingriff

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Land is a of course finite, but it's not in anything remotely approaching short supply in Ireland, even in Dublin.

We are a little over half the size of England with less than a tenth of the population. Land is not an issue.

Okay let me rephrase land is finite and the land in where people want to live (at the momebt) is more so

tjhook

tjhook wrote: »

I think the practical solutions are to either join with a friend/partner to share the costs of accommodation, or temporarily live in another country to save.

Or move to somewhere more affordable and commute. It’s what us country bumpkins are used to doing.

sbsquarepants

martingriff wrote: »

Okay let me rephrase land is finite and the land in where people want to live (at the momebt) is more so

You can't have everything, I'd love to live somewhere were I could head into town for a pint and manage to get home at some kind of reasonable hour. At the moment I'd have to catch the train home at the time I'd like to be heading out! But I can't afford a house in one of those areas, so I live somewhere else. That's just life.

There is absolutely no shortage of land in and around Dublin, there's practically nothing but empty land in the surrounding counties! It might not be within walking distance of grafton street, but it is there!

topper75

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

They tax the hell out of their people though to run their system. Finland and Sweden have some of the highest tax rates in the world.

Plus after 2 years dole, you MUST have found a job. Cry at the hatch all you want. You get nothing. They treat it as a safety net, not a sickbed like here.

A Swedish work colleague here can't believe the daftness of the Irish system. Being Scandi he doesn't laugh much but we got a good chuckle out of him that day we explained the Irish 'system'.

martingriff

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You can't have everything, I'd love to live somewhere were I could head into town for a pint and manage to get home at some kind of reasonable hour. At the moment I'd have to catch the train home at the time I'd like to be heading out! But I can't afford a house in one of those areas, so I live somewhere else. That's just life.

There is absolutely no shortage of land in and around Dublin, there's practically nothing but empty land in the surrounding counties! It might not be within walking distance of grafton street, but it is there!

I agree with you 100%