Third Irish forestry fund.

Sonny noggs

All Righty wrote: »

If I did I'd not be taken my wages in shares!

I agree there is a glut of bad timber on the market but also a glut of good timber which is causing the prices to fall.

Plantation owners are felling their forests before beetles get there.

Why should we care about the current prices when the schemes had 10 years or maturity... all this talk about pests and current timber prices is a smokescreen and a red herring.

nerine

Too late for a novena I suppose

The One Doctor

You'll be doing well to get your initial investment back plus inflation tbh. My mum has a few of these and I am not holding out any hope.

LVIrish21

I am a new user (first time to post) but I have followed this thread for some time. I have shares in the Forestry Growth Plans, and I had shares in the 10-year Forestry Investment Plans which matured back in 2015. My expectations are very low due to past performance; the ones that matured in 2015 generated AAR of less than 2.0 percent. So anything over that would be a bonus, but still disappointing.

I was curious to see if I could roughly estimate the price per acre paid by AXA. But this is difficult; the financial reports do not include number of acres owned by each fund. However, some public information and finanical data in the reports allows for a crude estimate.

An article on agriland.ie dated May 21 and titled “Single largest private forestry transaction in Irish history completed” suggests the total land portfolio bought by AXA is 10,067 acres (4,074 hectares). And each financial report has a “Statement of Cash Flows” with a line item “Net Proceeds from disposal of tangible assets” or “forestry land”. (I assume this line item refers to the money paid by AXA and is Net because some sales expenses were deducted???). Adding up this line item from all the financial reports gives a total of 56.19 million Euro.

So very crudely, AXA paid 56.19 million Euro for 10,067 acres = average 5,581 Euro per acre.

A real guesstimate and I have no idea if this is anywhere in line with average market prices. And no idea how values differ by forest age….the older funds having more mature forest.

LVIrish21

I think you may be only looking at the 6 Funds, there are also 12 Plans purchased by AXA.

The page number may vary, but as example looking at the Second Forestry Fund, page 13 shows the "Statement of Cash Flows" and roughly half way down is a line item "Net proceeds from disposal of forestry land". Add up this line item from the 6 funds and 12 plans to get an estimate of what AXA paid for the land.

Shareholder Funds is the final reconcilation taking account of cash that came in from the sale, was on the books, etc. These are the funds distributed to shareholders.

LVIrish21

I think you are still missing some numbers. Total shareholder funds comes to 58.84 million for all the funds & plans. Here are the shareholder funds:

Funds
#2 1,390,288
#3 3,955,203
#4 3,311,130
#5 3,766,282
#6 3,333,240
#7 2,752,308
Plans
#1 3,860,353
#2 3,225,509
#3 4,476,737
#4 3,175,838
#5 3,643,216
#6 3,694,443
#7 2,842,237
#8 2,433,097
#9 2,805,188
#10 2,927,725
#11 3,013,297
#12 2,231,592
Total
56,837,683

LVIrish21

I mean total comes to 56.84

LVIrish21 wrote: »

I think you are still missing some numbers. Total shareholder funds comes to 58.84 million for all the funds & plans. Here are the shareholder funds:

Funds
#2 1,390,288
#3 3,955,203
#4 3,311,130
#5 3,766,282
#6 3,333,240
#7 2,752,308
Plans
#1 3,860,353
#2 3,225,509
#3 4,476,737
#4 3,175,838
#5 3,643,216
#6 3,694,443
#7 2,842,237
#8 2,433,097
#9 2,805,188
#10 2,927,725
#11 3,013,297
#12 2,231,592
Total
56,837,683

ForFsSake

While unable to keep up with you whizz kids on understanding a set of accounts I was able to do a bit of googling to see if I could learn more

1. https://www.veon.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Veon_Vision_Jan_2018.pdf

Page two makes interesting reading and although written 18 months ago Veon state

"It shows that prices did indeed drop in the immediate post Brexit vote (Q3-16). This quarter is the worst performing quarter over the two years analysed. However, prices quickly recovered in Q4 2016 and, while they settled in early 2017, Q4 2017 is seen to have performed better than all other quarters. The UK economy has continued to grow and this coupled with price recovery in the UK by sawmillers and increasing domestic demand means that prices achieved by forest owners have improved. So long as these factors continue timber prices will continue to perform well."


2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBc2AIDKrXU

"Planting running 7% below target with forestry broadly 30% below target in Ireland."

Surely if we are below our forestry targets then that makes our funds more valuable?


3. https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-brosnan-919456/. He has posted an article where his fellow director Trevor McHugh in Irish Forestry Funds states

“Ireland has an enormous strategic advantage over other countries when it comes to growing Sitka Spruce.”

I don't know what type of trees are in our fund but if there are some Sitka Spruce trees then surely this advantage is worth money?


4. The directors are involved in other funds. This one seems to have done OK!

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/money-grows-on-trees-for-forestry-fund-investors-26687316.html

Quote from Trevor McHugh - director of Irish Forestry Funds - You cant make this stuff up!

"If you're a pure forestry owner in tough times, you just leave the trees to grow."

So if he believes that then why not keep ours growing for the next nine years?


5. Always good to know the company the directors keep. Not sure how this story finished up

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/forestry-fund-chaired-by-ahern-raises-just-5m-since-2009-1.1662063


In the same way you are examining the numbers I am trying and see if this is a good deal for us. Having read the above articles it seems selling now is a bad idea. Pretending it is a great deal for a few months to keep us quiet until it is over comes across as a disgusting way to treat shareholders.

Caveat - If a cheque arrives for more than we expect I retract all the above & congratulate the directors on their business acumen and sale execution!

PaulHayes82

Has anyone seen this article from the propertyfundsworld.com website posted on the 21st May:

"AXA Investment Managers - Real Assets (AXA IM - Real Assets) has completed the acquisition, on behalf of clients, of a 4,074 hectare forestry portfolio, in Ireland.

In a second transaction, AXA IM – Real Assets has agreed to acquire, on behalf of clients, a 594 hectare forest in Toulouse, South-West France, from a private investor.

The portfolio in Ireland, which is significant for the UK and Irish markets, is divided across 185 estates. Comprising one of Europe’s fastest growing wood types and the main and most valuable commercial conifer species in Ireland and the UK, the mixed age portfolio has a high average wood density of 182 sq m/ha. The portfolio’s 36-year typical crop cycle rotation is lower versus AXA IM - Real Assets’ other managed forestry assets, thereby improving the portfolio’s overall income profile. All of the estates benefit from good local infrastructure and close proximity to a number of saw mills.

Gresham House, the largest UK forestry management group, which manages over GBP1.1 billion of forest assets in the UK and Ireland, will act as the operating partner for the Irish portfolio, with forestry company Veon providing the forestry management services.

The Toulouse forest is managed by the Forestry Club de France and is predominantly comprised hardwood. Favorably located in the Forest of Giroussens, less than 30 minutes from Toulouse, the highly biodiverse area complements AXA IM – Real Assets’ existing portfolio of French forestry assets, both in terms of wood type and geographical diversification, whilst its urban positioning offers longer term change of use potential.

Following these transactions, AXA IM - Real Assets’ forestry portfolio now totals 41,000 hectares, with 15,000 hectares in France, 22,000 hectares in Finland and 4,000 hectares in Ireland. The forestry portfolio is a key tenet supporting AXA IM – Real Assets’ approach to Environmental, Social and Governance performance.

Christophe Lebrun, Head of Forestry at AXA IM - Real Assets, says: “These acquisitions, which reaffirm our commitment to responsible investing, are well aligned with our ambition to geographically diversify our forestry portfolio by crop type and maturity profile. The ability to source and then acquire what is one of the largest forestry portfolios to come on to the UK and Irish market in recent years demonstrates the strength of our origination capabilities, whilst the attractive income profile will benefit investors moving forward.

“With the wood market in Ireland forecast to double by net realizsble volume over the next five years, this acquisition provides us with a significant footprint at the early stage in this growth phase. At the same time, Ireland benefits from an optimal climate, which supports some of the highest growth rates. The Toulouse acquisition was a rare opportunity to acquire a single asset close to a major conurbation and offers the longer term potential to significantly enhance value both through improved environmental management and land value creation.”

******

We have been fed a complete line of rubbish in relation to the risks to our fund in the letters we received in May and the latest set of financial reports updated on Friday last.

What jumps out:

"Comprising one of Europe’s fastest growing wood types"
"the main and most valuable commercial conifer species in Ireland and the UK"
" The portfolio’s 36-year typical crop cycle rotation is lower versus AXA IM - Real Assets’ other managed forestry assets, thereby improving the portfolio’s overall income profile"
"All of the estates benefit from good local infrastructure and close proximity to a number of saw mills"
"With the wood market in Ireland forecast to double by net realizsble volume over the next five years"
"At the same time, Ireland benefits from an optimal climate, which supports some of the highest growth rates"


My questions:
1. How is this sale at this time to the benefit of shareholders with "With the wood market in Ireland forecast to double by net realizsble volume over the next five years"
2. If this was just a "windfall" for shareholders why the lack of transparency from the letters we receieved in May up until now?

Davo222

I wonder if the newspapers will report on this saga?

FishHook

Postman has been and gone here, still no cheque.

McSqueelpipe

FishHook wrote: »

Postman has been and gone here, still no cheque.

Same here 😡

In the old days

Ditto

John C 1981

Postman has just been here. Nothing from IFS.

antietam1

Are not waiting on a courier/carrier?

John C 1981

antietam1 wrote: »

Are not waiting on a courier/carrier?

Everything I've ever received from them has been by regular post. I don't see why this would be different.

FFruits

Nothing in the post here either. I just joined this forum as I’m trying to find out what on earth is going on. I’ve had quite a few investments over the years some good some fair. But I’ve never had an investment like this one. The uninformed untrue fairytale hype (fake news) from journalists ( they are no more informed than us the shareholders) and the positive public statements from the directors with no transparency during and after the AXA sale is more than unusual.

As a “preference” shareholder I’ve never been treated like this with any legitimate investment. To be told your investment has stopped early and sold and then given absolutely no follow on information for 4+ months is I think illegal. It is breaking their promise to shareholders and therefore not transparent and not fair.

After reading this forum I get the feeling that many would be prepared to take legal action in the event of a lower than expected return based on the “INFORMATION” given to us by the directors in public statements after the sale was agreed. The cheques are irrelevant at this stage the lack of transparency IS very relevant. We as preference shareholders are legally entitled to have our questions answered.

What does anyone else think. Anyone interested in drafting a letter to Paul Brosnan, Trevor McHugh and their respective solicitors if nothing has been made clear to us by tomorrow?

nerine

The non-arrival of the cheques is very worrying indeed. I wonder if the media is still covering this, they might if we all arrived at Leopardstown en masse

antietam1

John C 1981 wrote: »

Everything I've ever received from them has been by regular post. I don't see why this would be different.

Somebody mentioned that, I thought postie and registered letter which would mean waiting in to sign for same.

tomgilboy

Look .. they're hardly going to us the ordinary post to send out used 100 Euro notes .. especially when there could be thousands per envelope .. personally I'm watching out for. G4s van heading my way ..

I'm beginning to feel we could all be shafed in this 'scheme' ..has alot of ? about it all.

Id imagine people should refrain from trying to second guess their possible returns and concentrate on getting answers on where their 'so called' sale dividends are stuck ???

Where's AXA in all this ..has any Reporter worth their salt who lapped up the Bonanza tale bothered to contact them for their side of it all ?

If ..and hopefully it's a big IF AXA are part of the problem ..then steps should be actioned against them also ..I'd be slow to buy any AXA product if it transpired they had something to do with it all other than being a genuine buyer at the right price

FFruits

I say everyone on this forum should phone them TODAY. Ask where our money is? Do not accept a blow off and ask to speak to one of the directors. If enough people do this they will start to get more interested in their shareholders. I’m phoning now. tel:+353 1 284 1 777

paris24

No point phoning they have automated voice mail asking you to email any queries.

I think we need to explore the possibility of appointing a liquidator to the various forestry funds so a full and comprehensive investigation can be carried out into the affairs of the various companies and the actions of the directors. It would appear the manner in which we’ve been treated thus far has been nothing short of scandalous.

Once a liquidator is appointed we could explore the possibility of rescinding the sale contract for the various forestry investments. I also notice Deloitte are the auditors for the various forestry funds and surprised such a reputable firm is involved with such shady behavior.

FFruits

You’re right telephoning was just an idea to get their blood pumping but I think they don’t have any! I do think the media needs to be informed though. A short email to the Irish times may be an idea. It seems the independent have been “given” their story back in May then told to shut up.

dan1981

The media are not going to report that shareholders are not happy with the size of the gain from an investment. That's simply not the case. A profit is a profit. There are questions about 'summer bonanzas' and 'windfalls' - but it's quite clear that Veon hasn't been great with communications.

However, what the media will take an interest is how the shareholders react after the fact (of receiving the dividend), informing the journalists of how Veon has treated shareholders with confusing and contradictory written communications and what the preferred meaning of that has been, and a refusal to discuss dividends with shareholders in advance of payment.

On the communications, it's clear there's a significant quantum between how AXA are pitching this as a very profitable purchase which will improve their income profile (so basically saying this purchase is better for them than their other forestry purchases!), and the communications form Veon citing all kinds of contrasting and contradictory awful which merits them selling the entire fund whilst a the same time directly benefitting from the transaction by swapping one shareholder out for another, who is likely to pay them more.

If the shareholders here are to organise, and make formal and informed complaints to the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement (ODCE) the Central Bank/Financial Regulator and the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission (CCPC) then I would say journalists would jump all over the story. Because this will be the story to write.

Further, I would be inclined, once I had the dividend cheque, to challenge the audit conducted by Deloitte and the Independent verification (which I assume we'll be provided with) and ask how they have deemed the books in good order if assets in the respective funds are being allegedly undersold.

If anyone does wish to reach out to a journalist they should do so. It's August and it's a quiet period, people may be away, but there's a story here. It's up to the shareholders to reach out and tell it.

antietam1

Anyone know if this is being discussed on any other forae forii forums or formicary's whatever the damned plural is.

dan1981

antietam1 wrote: »

Anyone know if this is being discussed on any other forae forii forums or formicary's whatever the damned plural is.

Not to the extent it's being discussed here. But I do suspect there are many Irish Forestry lurkers looking at this thread:

Here's a thread from elsewhere: https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/investment-in-irish-forestry-funds.6699/page-14#post-1613216

And I think the word you're looking for is 'fora'

nerine

DAN1981, I think you are right. I would like to have that cheque in my possession first though, no matter how small the profit

MGHolmes

Just rang their 1800 719 399 free ph. no. and was told the cheque's were posted from Limerick on Fri. last 16th. of Aug. 2019 ? I asked , Why Limerick ? and was told that is where our specialist printers are !!? I said we should have them by now and she agreed and sounded bemused !! WTF ? Also told to check the website for pricing info. !!

FFruits

I’d say Trev & Paul are off on hols!

dan1981

MGHolmes wrote: »

Just rang their 1800 719 399 free ph. no. and was told the cheque's were posted from Limerick on Fri. last 16th. of Aug. 2019 ? I asked , Why Limerick ? and was told that is where our specialist printers are !!? I said we should have them by now and she agreed and sounded bemused !! WTF ? Also told to check the website for pricing info. !!

I did see somewhere they were contracting out the payments to shareholders to a specialist firm given the sheer volume of cheques.

If they’re based in Limerick it’s perhaps Northern Trust.