The Falcon And The Winter Soldier - Miniseries - Disney + (***Spoilers***)

flazio

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'm finding the redhead, Karli, tough to buy as a threat though.

"Oh hi little girl" WHACK into the truck behind them. Yeah, she's a threat.

pah

flazio wrote: »

"Oh hi little girl" WHACK into the truck behind them. Yeah, she's a threat.

I dunno, Steve had the bulk to back up the fact he was in peak physical condition with his muscles popping, even Bucky was bigger in TWS than he is now. Super soldier serum can't just make small people strong.

Mecrab

pah wrote: »

I dunno, Steve had the bulk to back up the fact he was in peak physical condition with his muscles popping, even Bucky was bigger in TWS than he is now. Super soldier serum can't just make small people strong.

The serum that Cap got in the first Avenger was the original and all the serums afterwards (Bucky, hydra super soldiers, these goons) are imitations and not as good

adaminho

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The character of John Walker does intrigue me. Don't know about anyone else but I think the actor bears a striking resemblance to Harry Kane.

All I see is his Dad, especially when he wears the helmet.

Midnight_EG

adaminho wrote: »

All I see is his Dad, especially when he wears the helmet.

Must be his big Ego

gmisk

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I liked it better than last week's episode but the chemistry between the two leads really isn't there. Marvel have a formula to these things, and so feel they have to insert their comedic moments, but it doesn't really suit these characters; and that comes across.

The character of John Walker does intrigue me. Don't know about anyone else but I think the actor bears a striking resemblance to Harry Kane.

I'm finding the redhead, Karli, tough to buy as a threat though.

I pretty much agree with this.

I felt it was slightly better than last week's...but it is not wowing me really. I wasn't exactly expecting it to be as out there as wandavision but it just feels very by the numbers so far.

The actress playing karli is actually pretty decent in other things I have seen her in like raised by wolves.

The White Wolf

I wonder if it's General Ross chasing the Flag Smashers.

Would be some craic that he's still chasing the super soldier serum after all this time.

Lithium93_

The White Wolf wrote: »

I wonder if it's General Ross chasing the Flag Smashers.

Would be some craic that he's still chasing the super soldier serum after all this time.

Wasn't The Falcon & The Winter Soldier originally supposed to debut before the Black Widow movie?

silverharp

is this series going on the dud heap? from a few comments I saw its not generating any excitement relative to wandaision

silverharp

silverharp wrote: »

is this series going on the dud heap? from a few comments I saw its not generating any excitement relative to wandaision

Around episode 2 wandavision was getting panned by many.

Insect Overlord

silverharp wrote: »

is this series going on the dud heap? from a few comments I saw its not generating any excitement relative to wandaision

What did you think of it yourself?

I've enjoyed episodes 1 & 2, therefore (so far) it's not a dud to me.

flazio

The reason it's not getting much discussion is there isn't as much mystery as to WTF is going on as there was in Wandavision. "Oh, who's that watching them on TV, how did that girl know about Pietro etc" Here it's New terrorist organisation trying to force their world order. Falcon and the Bucky (he is no longer the Winter Solider) have to stop them while tackling their own issues. So the discussion tends to be. "I like the action sequence" "I agree" "I disagree" and so on.

silverharp

flazio wrote: »

The reason it's not getting much discussion is there isn't as much mystery as to WTF is going on as there was in Wandavision. "Oh, who's that watching them on TV, how did that girl know about Pietro etc" Here it's New terrorist organisation trying to force their world order. Falcon and the Bucky (he is no longer the Winter Solider) have to stop them while tackling their own issues. So the discussion tends to be. "I like the action sequence" "I agree" "I disagree" and so on.

that sums it up, shows like Twin Peaks were brought up with Wandavision so yeah it got people talking. Probably superhero genre fatigue at this stage too.

What did you think of it yourself?

I've enjoyed episodes 1 & 2, therefore (so far) it's not a dud to me.
Today 00:32

I watched the first episode but it didnt grab me, I'd need some mystery or the trying to live the double life like a Superman/Batman or a Spiderman

Foxtrol

steve_r wrote: »

so, back to the, eh show...

Watched this and was quite underwhelmed. I’ve probably had my fill of the MCU so maybe I’m being too negative, but the attempt to build social issues from the events of the “snap”, like the inability to secure finance, anarchist groups rising felt really hollow to me.

There’s plenty of real-world issues they could use, instead of bending over backwards to tie back into the MCU continuity. Marvel do this kind of stuff too often, where there are references/nods to other films/shows to push people to watch everything and it just grates on me.

There’s a great story arc in the comics where Cap dies and Bucky has to wrestle with the idea of taking up the mantle, and what a world without Captain America looks like.

I do think that it would be possible to tell an equally interesting story about Sam taking up the Shield but the first episode was a really poor start. A lot of moping around, exposition, harking back to other stories rather than telling something new.

I would like to see this done well, and I do think there is the potential for a good story there.

However I get the sense that this is “Safe” marvel, and as one poster already mentioned if you miss this series it won’t really matter. Which is a pity, because WandaVision showed that if you are willing to take a few risks, you can tell a really engaging story.

Interesting to hear that perspective in bold. During WandaVision there were a good few posters complaining that they just brushed over the impact of the blip/snap.

I feel the total opposite, how one movie impacts the later ones and the wider world has always been an element I've loved about the MCU. What happens actually matters to what comes next. I'm still warming to the show but it is really interesting to me how they are fleshing out the impacts of people returning and how it is driving world volatility - I'm sure it won't be the last.

FileNotFound

So far not overly awed or impressed.

Will keep watching but not overly expectant

steve_r

Foxtrol wrote: »

Interesting to hear that perspective in bold. During WandaVision there were a good few posters complaining that they just brushed over the impact of the blip/snap.

I feel the total opposite, how one movie impacts the later ones and the wider world has always been an element I've loved about the MCU. What happens actually matters to what comes next. I'm still warming to the show but it is really interesting to me how they are fleshing out the impacts of people returning and how it is driving world volatility - I'm sure it won't be the last.

It is an idea worth exploring but I don't feel the show dealt with it particularly well. It was a small part of the first episode and didn't feature in the second episode.

I liked the action in the second episode but the relationship between Bucky and Falcon seemed all off to me - going from buddy cop banter then to the really forced therapy scene, it didn't feel natural for either character in my opionion.

Mitch Connor

I don't think it as interesting or mysterious a show in premise, but to be honest I am getting what I expected of it - a tv version of the captain america movies, something closer to Agents of Shield than WandaVision ever would be.

I'm enjoying it for what I expected it to be.

Also, Captain America was my favourite MCU character by a mile, so seeing a show about taking on (or not) his mantle is something that was always going to draw me in. I have never been a fan of Sam, but I am certainly here for the story arc he is going to go through (i think) in terms of can he be Captain America? Can he be a symbol to America, and (based on the first two episodes) can he be a symbol of America.

Mitch Connor

steve_r wrote: »

It is an idea worth exploring but I don't feel the show dealt with it particularly well. It was a small part of the first episode and didn't feature in the second episode.

I liked the action in the second episode but the relationship between Bucky and Falcon seemed all off to me - going from buddy cop banter then to the really forced therapy scene, it didn't feel natural for either character in my opionion.

Would agree on the therapy scene, but imo it was there for a couple of purposes - the Bucky 'If he was wrong about you then he was wrong about me' line, or close to that. I think they could have got that line into the show without a crap therapy session. The other piece, imo, is to create a connection between the Doctor and Walker/Captain America. I reckon that is going to be an important plot 'twist' a bit further down the line.

steve_r

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Would agree on the therapy scene, but imo it was there for a couple of purposes - the Bucky 'If he was wrong about you then he was wrong about me' line, or close to that. I think they could have got that line into the show without a crap therapy session. The other piece, imo, is to create a connection between the Doctor and Walker/Captain America. I reckon that is going to be an important plot 'twist' a bit further down the line.

Yeah agreed, they could have been looking for a way to get that line in there. The scene just felt off for me.

If you love the Cap storylines and the idea of what the shield stands for, then the Ed Brubaker run on the Captain America comic is well worth checking out.

It inspired a lot of the themes of the Cap movies and really explores the character of Bucky

Bacchus

+1 here in the enjoying it for what it is - a TV version of a Captain America movie. I'm ok with the lack of big mystery. Not every show has to have a mystery box. A straight up super-soldiers with a dastardly plan is just fine... though I'm not sure how their plan is dastardly. They appear to want equality for all and to tear down the old systems of global superpowers. This is bad because.... ? It will be interesting to see if they go deeper in to that... shades of grey with the baddies.

What I really like is how success the show is at making me uncomfortable with Walker as Captain America. It's grating, I'm with Bucky, not my Cap etc. Yet, there's also a tinge of him being a bona-fide hero at peak human fitness (without enhancements) who had this thrust at him. It's being well done IMO.

Mitch Connor

Bacchus wrote: »

+1 here in the enjoying it for what it is - a TV version of a Captain America movie. I'm ok with the lack of big mystery. Not every show has to have a mystery box. A straight up super-soldiers with a dastardly plan is just fine... though I'm not sure how their plan is dastardly. They appear to want equality for all and to tear down the old systems of global superpowers. This is bad because.... ? It will be interesting to see if they go deeper in to that... shades of grey with the baddies.

What I really like is how success the show is at making me uncomfortable with Walker as Captain America. It's grating, I'm with Bucky, not my Cap etc. Yet, there's also a tinge of him being a bona-fide hero at peak human fitness (without enhancements) who had this thrust at him. It's being well done IMO.

Next episode will be key I guess. Whatever they do there is no going back from so they have to be doing something big.

I don't think they are actually the bad guys though.
Karli got a text from someone threatening her, which she kept from the others. I assume that was the 'Power Broker', and we don't know who that is yet.

To me, they are too front and centre in from the first episode to be the ultimate bad guy in this.

I reckon the therapist and someone behind Captain America are going to be the bad guys, and using the Flag Smashers.

My thinking:

Flag Smashers are going to kill Walker, and it will have been set up behind the scenes, using the death of Captain America to fuel an American expansion to 'solidify' borders. Bucky and Sam will work to uncover/stop them - with Sam taking up the Shield as part of his efforts to right the wrongs.

FileNotFound

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Next episode will be key I guess. Whatever they do there is no going back from so they have to be doing something big.

.....

To me, they are too front and centre in from the first episode to be the ultimate bad guy in this.

I got that feeling after the episode, they humanised them too much.

Can't say i can see where the bad guy is, +1 on bye bye walker somehow.

Lithium93_

Could Zemo not be orchestrating the Flag Smashers while he's locked up? He did hate the Avengers to the extent he badly fractured them. That and he has a line that superheroes shouldn't be allowed to exist..

Mitch Connor

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Could Zemo not be orchestrating the Flag Smashers while he's locked up? He did hate the Avengers to the extent he badly fractured them. That and he has a line that superheroes shouldn't be allowed to exist..

But he killed off the super soldiers in CW, so wouldn't make sense that he would then be behind a group of them.

We did see trailer footage showing he will be doing something, so might be aligned with people trying to use/frame the flag smashers if that is the direction they go.

den87

I like this enough to stick with it but only just. I think my biggest problem with it is that (in my opinion) Anthony Mackie is just not a good actor and i find it very hard to stay focused if has the majority of the dialogue in a scene.

Walker as Cap is my favourite part of the show and I do enjoy Bucky for the most part.

Lithium93_

Mitch Connor wrote: »

But he killed off the super soldiers in CW, so wouldn't make sense that he would then be behind a group of them.

We did see trailer footage showing he will be doing something, so might be aligned with people trying to use/frame the flag smashers if that is the direction they go.

Aligned with a certain General maybe, a you help me, I'll help you deal. I'm definitely intrigued as to how Zemo ties into the show's larger story.

The Golden Miller

The show is good but the inshow reality of characters strength is all over the place. It's an arc on super soldiers, yet we've a human "Captain America" falling off the back of trucks and not dying. What's the point of a super soldier premise if bog standard humans are just as strong or can hold their own?

Why would Bucky even need the shield to do the job, as he said on the plane? He often bested Captain America without the shield, who himself had it. Think Bucky can get on fine in combat without it. Now we're supposed to believe he needs the shield or will be at some huge loss?

As for the new Captain America saying to Bucky to stay out of his way or else, are we supposed to believe this new Captain America could even hold his own against Bucky? Shouldn't he be dead after one punch from Bucky?

RedRochey

The Golden Miller wrote: »

The show is good but the inshow reality of characters strength is all over the place. It's an arc on super soldiers, yet we've a human "Captain America" falling off the back of trucks and not dying. What's the point of a super soldier premise if bog standard humans are just as strong or can hold their own?

Is he just "bog standard" though? I don't think the plot is as straightforward as you think

The Golden Miller

RedRochey wrote: »

Is he just "bog standard" though? I don't think the plot is as straightforward as you think

Well I think the implication is he's not a super soldier. And his sidekick certainly isn't, yet he's falling off the back or lorries too, with no bother on him

shawki

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Well I think the implication is he's not a super soldier. And his sidekick certainly isn't, yet he's falling off the back or lorries too, with no bother on him

His suit probably has some protection.

shawki

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Well I think the implication is he's not a super soldier. And his sidekick certainly isn't, yet he's falling off the back or lorries too, with no bother on him

His suit probably has some protection.

Foxtrol

steve_r wrote: »

It is an idea worth exploring but I don't feel the show dealt with it particularly well. It was a small part of the first episode and didn't feature in the second episode.

They hit on it again in the second episode, talking about refugee camps that were created, the effort to restart social security numbers, the changes to government structures. They're slowly building out what the world is like after the people returned.

Mark Hamill

The Golden Miller wrote: »

What's the point of a super soldier premise if bog standard humans are just as strong or can hold their own?

Skill and experience count for a lot in a fight, four soldiers going against a group of inexperienced fighters, even though super-powered, will get far. Even so, we see they all get beaten anyway.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Why would Bucky even need the shield to do the job, as he said on the plane? He often bested Captain America without the shield, who himself had it.

Captain America beat Bucky every time they fought (twice in Winter Soldier and once in Civil War). Captain America was basically strong enough to bicep curl a helicopter while it tried to take off, he is like Spider-man in that he is severely pulling his punches so that he doesn't explode peoples heads when he punches them (doubly so after he realises the Winter Soldier is his friend and he doesn't want to kill him).

The Golden Miller wrote: »

As for the new Captain America saying to Bucky to stay out of his way or else, are we supposed to believe this new Captain America could even hold his own against Bucky? Shouldn't he be dead after one punch from Bucky?

New Cap doesn't appear to be unpowered (during the tv interview with him, a short scene of him throwing the shield and he seems to be throwing faster than a normal human would). Bucky, as he is no longer brainwashed, also holds back.

The Golden Miller

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Skill and experience count for a lot in a fight, four soldiers going against a group of inexperienced fighters, even though super-powered, will get far. Even so, we see they all get beaten anyway.

Your standard human, army or not, doesn't be leaping and falling from trucks unscathed. They die, generally

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Captain America beat Bucky every time they fought (twice in Winter Soldier and once in Civil War). Captain America was basically strong enough to bicep curl a helicopter while it tried to take off, he is like Spider-man in that he is severely pulling his punches so that he doesn't explode peoples heads when he punches them (doubly so after he realises the Winter Soldier is his friend and he doesn't want to kill him).

Captain America gave up in the last fight in Winter Soldier, they were at a stalemate at that point. Bucky disappeared in the first fight if I remember, stalemate again. Captain America was generally bested by Bucky, until the storyline decided Bucky can't win as he's the "bad guy". They are both super soldiers, supposed to be in and around the same level. Neither were holding back on the other, mitigating factors generally broke it up. Captain America didn't even know he was Bucky in the first fight

Saying that, neither are even in the ballpark in terms of Spider-man's strength. They are supposed to be of peak/enhanced human abilities, Spider-man can lift 50 tonnes casually.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

New Cap doesn't appear to be unpowered (during the tv interview with him, a short scene of him throwing the shield and he seems to be throwing faster than a normal human would). Bucky, as he is no longer brainwashed, also holds back.

The actor has said himself he isn't enhanced. Yet there he is throwing the shield around as if he is. We're supposed to believe anyone can pretty much be Captain America if he has "guts"? Does having guts now mean you do superhuman things all of a sudden. It's nonsense.

Mitch Connor

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Your standard human, army or not, doesn't be leaping and falling from trucks unscathed. They die, generally



Captain America gave up in the last fight in Winter Soldier, they were at a stalemate at that point. Bucky disappeared in the first fight if I remember, stalemate again. Captain America was generally bested by Bucky, until the storyline decided Bucky can't win as he's the "bad guy". They are both super soldiers, supposed to be in and around the same level.

Saying that, neither are even in the ballpark in terms of Spider-man's strength. They are supposed to be of peak/enhanced human abilities, Spider-man can lift 50 tonnes casually



The actor has said himself he isn't enhanced. Yet there he is throwing the shield around as if he is. We're supposed to believe anyone can pretty much be Captain America if he has "guts"? Does having guts now mean you do superhuman things all of a sudden. It's nonsense

What is there to say that a really strong person can't throw the shield? We've seen people handle the shield - Tony picked it up without issue so it doesn't weigh the same as a truck or something. It isn't Thor's hammer.

The only person we have seen try/fail to do similar is Happy (but not using Caps shield).

Part of the point is Captain America is a symbol - which is what Walker is trying to be. He is the best of the best, or so we are told. A superb soldier, if not a super-soldier.

Black Widow and Sam used caps sheild to stop themselves dying coming out of the car in Winter Soldier - the shield took the hit and cushioned them, just as it did Battlestar?

flazio

adaminho wrote: »

All I see is his Dad, especially when he wears the helmet.

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Must be his big Ego

Only found out today that Kurt Russell is his dad and therefore only get the references now.
<face palm emoji>

shawki

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Spider-man can lift 50 tonnes casually

I think you meant Superman because Spider-man is no where near that strong.

adaminho

shawki wrote: »

I think you meant Superman because Spider-man is no where near that strong.

Superhuman Strength: Spider-Man has the proportional strength of a spider. This allows him to lift 10 tons or more (if he's under extreme stress or sufficiently enraged), allowing him to perform even greater levels of strength.

https://spiderman.fandom.com/wiki/Peter_Parker_(Earth-616)#Powers

shawki

adaminho wrote: »

https://spiderman.fandom.com/wiki/Peter_Parker_(Earth-616)#Powers

I don't see casually lifting 50 tonnes there.

The Golden Miller

shawki wrote: »

I don't see casually lifting 50 tonnes there.

That was at the start. Over time they've put him in the 30-50 tonne region, as with Venom. Captain America and Bucky in the 1 tonne range, with Bucky's metal arm more. 10 tonne or not, Spiderman way above Captain Americas level

Homelander

The Golden Miller wrote: »

The actor has said himself he isn't enhanced. Yet there he is throwing the shield around as if he is. We're supposed to believe anyone can pretty much be Captain America if he has "guts"? Does having guts now mean you do superhuman things all of a sudden. It's nonsense.

I agree entirely with this. I couldn't suspend belief seeing a supposed "gutsy but entirely normal" human get beat up by super soldiers, tossed off fast moving trucks, et al and be completely fine without a scratch, not to mention flinging and catch the vibranium shield like a casual frisbee, etc.

It just strikes me as nonsensical even within a comic book world with a lot of leeway. They seem to want to suggest that guts and patriotism somehow magically compensate for the shortfalls.

Some of the counter-arguments are weak or missing the point. Someone throwing the shield, picking it up, being saved by it on occassion - totally fine.

What is less fine (for me personally) is Walker being a normal guy in the narrative, and then being a de-facto super-human himself on screen.

It would be like if a normal 12st man in real life went up against a prime Mike Tyson, and was then tossed off a moving truck.

He'd be in A&E for six months. Not dusting himself off with a chuckle and onto the next adventure.

I really liked Wandavision (and it goes without saying I love Winter Soldier and following movies) and I do see a lot of people praising this but I'm finding it a fairly dumb dud so far.

Midnight_EG

shawki wrote: »

I don't see casually lifting 50 tonnes there.

But you did see him pull two halves of a boat back together in Homecoming, which I'm sure is a lot more than 50 tonnes.

The Golden Miller

Midnight_EG wrote: »

But you did see him pull two halves of a boat back together in Homecoming, which I'm sure is a lot more than 50 tonnes.

That 10 tonne thing is years old. He started off at that strength, Green Goblin and Venom slightly stronger. They've all been moved up to the 50 tonne range over time.

Carnage was 80 tonne. How were Spiderman and Venom supposed to beat him, even together, both being in the 10 tonne range?

What was ridiculous is that Captain America could even tag Spiderman in Civil War. One way stomping if Spiderman wanted

The Golden Miller

Homelander wrote: »

I agree entirely with this. I couldn't suspend belief seeing a supposed "gutsy but entirely normal" human get beat up by super soldiers, tossed off fast moving trucks, et al and be completely fine without a scratch, not to mention flinging and catch the vibranium shield like a casual frisbee, etc.

It just strikes me as nonsensical even within a comic book world with a lot of leeway. They seem to want to suggest that guts and patriotism somehow magically compensate for the shortfalls.

Some of the counter-arguments are weak or missing the point. Someone throwing the shield, picking it up, being saved by it on occassion - totally fine.

What is less fine (for me personally) is Walker being a normal guy in the narrative, and then being a de-facto super-human himself on screen.

It would be like if a normal 12st man in real life went up against a prime Mike Tyson, and was then tossed off a moving truck.

He'd be in A&E for six months. Not dusting himself off with a chuckle and onto the next adventure.

I really liked Wandavision (and it goes without saying I love Winter Soldier and following movies) and I do see a lot of people praising this but I'm finding it a fairly dumb dud so far.

Exactly. Cringy watching him threaten Bucky, and for the sake of the storyline Bucky saying nothing back. Are we supposed to believe he'd be anything more than a fly for Buckey to swathe away? And with Bucky's temperament, he'd say nothing back? Least not upend him there and then?

Midnight_EG

The Golden Miller wrote: »

That 10 tonne thing is years old. He started off at that strength, Green Goblin and Venom slightly stronger. They've all been moved up to the 50 tonne range over time.

Carnage was 80 tonne. How were Spiderman and Venom supposed to beat him, even together, both being in the 10 tonne range?

What was ridiculous is that Captain America could even tag Spiderman in Civil War. One way stomping if Spiderman wanted

Well aware of his range and time line.

Cap was able to hit him, because Peter was a 16 year old kid who only had his powers six months when Civil War happened.

The Golden Miller

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Well aware of his range and time line.

Cap was able to hit him, because Peter was a 16 year old kid who only had his powers six months when Civil War happened.

Haha ye sorry, was agreeing and expanding on what you said, not disputing anything as it probably came across as

The Golden Miller

Homelander wrote: »

It just strikes me as nonsensical even within a comic book world with a lot of leeway.

Just reading back and I think that's a very good point. It's a fictional universe, but even given that there should be some consistency within it.

Thor powering Ironman's suit up just so there's a fight is nonsense. As is Hulk being knocked clean out by the Hulkbuster suit. Thor seems up and down depending on the story. From what we seen of Spider-man his feats are very up and down. The only two with consistency are Captain America and Iron-man, but very overpowered compared to their comic counterparts.

The character that's the worst for this is Bucky. When bad, he can do anything seemingly. When good, next to useless. The fight at the end of Civil War summed it up for me. It's a point very few people pick up on, the ridiculous and unbelievable manner it happened in.

First we have Bucky's vibranium arm, shown to be able to crush Iron-mans suit (his hand at the start of the fight), does so within a second. Despite his arm, and Cap's shield being their biggest asset in the fight, Bucky spends his time running away. When forced to fight, Bucky pins Iron-man to the wall and goes for his reactor/heart thing. This should have been pulled out in a second, least not destroyed beforehand when Bucky hit it dead on with a vibranium hand, knocking Iron-man against the wall.

Next we see his hand blown in two by a blast from Iron-man's reactor. Can he even shoot blasts from there? Never seen it before that scene. Next Bucky's arm is in two, despite vibranium being indestructible. If anything, surely it should of came off from the shoulder. Next Bucky is helpless on the floor, despite the fact he feels no pain in that arm. Nonsense from start to finish, as far as I'm concerned anyway. The fights logical conclusion was when Bucky went for his heart reactor with a vibranium hand

Midnight_EG

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Just reading back and I think that's a very good point. It's a fictional universe, but even given that there should be some consistency within it.

Thor powering Ironman's suit up just so there's a fight is nonsense. As is Hulk being knocked clean out by the Hulkbuster suit. Thor seems up and down depending on the story. From what we seen of Spider-man his feats are very up and down. The only two with consistency are Captain America and Iron-man, but very overpowered compared to their comic counterparts.

The character that's the worst for this is Bucky. When bad, he can do anything seemingly. When good, next to useless. The fight at the end of Civil War summed it up for me. It's a point very few people pick up on, the ridiculous and unbelievable manner it happened in.

First we have Bucky's vibranium arm, shown to be able to crush Iron-mans suit (his hand at the start of the fight), does so within a second. Despite his arm, and Cap's shield being their biggest asset in the fight, Bucky spends his time running away. When forced to fight, Bucky pins Iron-man to the wall and goes for his reactor/heart thing. This should have been pulled out in a second, least not destroyed beforehand when Bucky hit it dead on with a vibranium hand, knocking Iron-man against the wall.

Next we see his hand blown in two by a blast from Iron-man's reactor. Can he even shoot blasts from there? Never seen it before that scene. Next Bucky's arm is in two, despite vibranium being indestructible. If anything, surely it should of came off from the shoulder. Next Bucky is helpless on the floor, despite the fact he feels no pain in that arm. Nonsense from start to finish, as far as I'm concerned anyway. The fights logical conclusion was when Bucky went for his heart reactor with a vibranium hand

Alright ill bite. Bucky is a character who's only 100% effective when he's the Winter Soldier. This persona is a killing machine with no morals, no cares and no reason. Bucky is not stronger than Cap, as the serum Cap got was the original and Bucky's was a replica of the formula that Zola stole. Bucky only beat Cap because of his tenacity and innermost desire to please his masters.

In TFATWS, he's a shell of his former self, and his 'rules' from his therapist reinforce this. He can't (doesn't want to?) hurt/kill anybody, as he now has his memories of what he's done. He's certainly pulling his punches, even against the baddies.

Now, onto the CW fight. Iron Man has previous for using the Arc Reactor as a phaser beam, it's his most powerful one and we even see him hit Thor with it in their first fight after he gets hit with lightening.

Bucky's arm in Civil War was made of titanium, he didn't receive the Vibranium arm until the end of Black Panther when he became the White Wolf. Tony could easily cut titanium in two. Isiah also recalls that he tore half of Bucky's arm off in the second episode of TFAWS.

Vibranium is not indestructible, its just simply stronger than a lot of other stuff. Thanos sword was made of Uru which cut Caps shield in half, and Adamantium is also stronger again.

If you're going to put up petty arguments, at least have the facts right.

Agent Coulson

Nice to see Agent 13 get the chance to kick some ass.

Wasn't expecting that person at the end but really should have guessed they would turn up at some stage.

Mitch Connor

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Nice to see Agent 13 get the chance to kick some ass.

Wasn't expecting that person at the end but really should have guessed they would turn up at some stage.

Sharon is 100% the power broker too.