The Falcon And The Winter Soldier - Miniseries - Disney + (***Spoilers***)

The Phantom Pain

I sat in stunned silence after the episode ended.
This show improves with each episode.

expectationlost

those Wakanda warriors are hella incompetent

Mitch Connor

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Karli never went to Madripoor, she went to Munich

Was she not in madripor at some point previous to the show, to meet the power broker and at some point steal the serum?

Midnight_EG

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Was she not in madripor at some point previous to the show, to meet the power broker and at some point steal the serum?

They stole the serum from Nagel before it got to the Power Broker. She may have been there before what we know, but in the show she hasn't.

PTH2009

That was a great episode, Can't get enough of Zemo he's just so sneaky. I'd love to see him and Loki join forces. Would it be some laugh if he was Doctor Doom all along

That

Captain America murder scene was just wow.. Be interesting to see what now, will he get stripped of the role and go full psycho

gmisk

This week's was strongest episode by a distance for me. That final scene was excellent.
Some of the other fight scenes were excellent.
Things should kick up a notch now

that the new captain america has taken the serum, and they killed off his mate. The scene with them all shocked didn't exactly ring true.

Karli is still not really that convincing to me at all.
Loving zemo.

Mitch Connor

Midnight_EG wrote: »

They stole the serum from Nagel before it got to the Power Broker. She may have been there before what we know, but in the show she hasn't.

He was in madripor making the serum, the power broker backed it iirc?

Also, was there not some lines about karli and others meeting at the club?

I know she wasn't in madripor within the time frame of the show, but I'm convinced they were there before the show (and that is how they for the serum)

Midnight_EG

Mitch Connor wrote: »

He was in madripor making the serum, the power broker backed it iirc?

Also, was there not some lines about karli and others meeting at the club?

I know she wasn't in madripor within the time frame of the show, but I'm convinced they were there before the show (and that is how they for the serum)

Yeah that's right, I just meant we haven't seen her there

Homelander

Still don't quite get the universal praise, I find the fight and action scenes are great, but the narrative stuff in between is really cheesy and dumb.

I mean, Bucky has a warrant issued for his arrest for missing a therapy session, but then flies to central Europe, engages in all sorts of shenanigans, frees one of the worlds most dangerous criminals from prison, and then strolls around town in broad daylight with said sprung criminal...

Loads of other stuff as well that just strikes me as Sunday afternoon cartoon level stuff, when compared to the wider MCU and how plots are developed in other things.

I don't expect oscar-winning material, but Marvel movies are usually far more convincing and intelligent than this, the whole thing is just really incredibly stupid and convenient to drive the plot forward quickly rather than arrive at it intelligently or logically.

On the plus side the action is good, the last 20 minutes of the latest episode were actually well done, compelling and very interesting.

John Walker - does he play a "homelander" and insist that it's the price to keep the world/American safe? Or just go off the rails altogether and go rogue. Or something in between. This is literally the first time I'm interested in the next episode

I just wish the connecting tissue wasn't so weak and the show could have been every bit as good as the movie universe it's based on.

gmisk

Homelander wrote: »

Still don't quite get the universal praise, I find the fight and action scenes are great, but the narrative stuff in between is really cheesy and dumb.

I mean, Bucky has a warrant issued for his arrest for missing a therapy session, but then flies to central Europe, engages in all sorts of shenanigans, frees one of the worlds most dangerous criminals from prison, and then strolls around town in broad daylight with said sprung criminal...

Loads of other stuff as well that just strikes me as Sunday afternoon cartoon level stuff, when compared to the wider MCU and how plots are developed in other things.

I don't expect oscar-winning material, but Marvel movies are usually far more convincing and intelligent than this, the whole thing is just really incredibly stupid and convenient to drive the plot forward quickly rather than arrive at it intelligently or logically.

On the plus side the action is good, the last 20 minutes of the latest episode were actually well done, compelling and very interesting.

John Walker - does he play a "homelander" and insist that it's the price to keep the world/American safe? Or just go off the rails altogether and go rogue. Or something in between. This is literally the first time I'm interested in the next episode

I just wish the connecting tissue wasn't so weak and the show could have been every bit as good as the movie universe it's based on.

Do you mean universal praise on here or in general?
On here I don't think it has been honestly.
Reviews are positive but not overwhelmingly so.
https://www.metacritic.com/tv/the-falcon-and-the-winter-soldier/season-1

I honestly have enjoyed it but it wasn't excellent until this week, the other eps would have been a 6 maybe 7 max this was an 8, much much better.

It is a very different beast to wandavision, very much as expected, not half as inventive, off the wall or engaging but still enjoyable with solid action scenes.

Homelander

Yeah, to be fair I meant on this thread really, haven't looked to the wider reviews. 6.5 user score seems fair to me, it's a 6(ish)/10 for me overall with occasional 8/10 moments - last 15 minutes of latest episode for example.

Feel like Wandavision was a more consistent 7 or 7.5/10 material throughout.

gmisk

Homelander wrote: »

Yeah, to be fair I meant on this thread really, haven't looked to the wider reviews. 6.5 user score seems fair to me, it's a 6(ish)/10 for me overall with occasional 8/10 moments - last 15 minutes of latest episode for example.

Feel like Wandavision was a more consistent 7 or 7.5/10 material throughout.

I would agree with that...but I would bump some of the wandavision episode scores up a notch or two

joficeduns1

I agree on the connective material being weaker. I rolled my eyes at Cap/Battlestar yelling back and forth with the three lads in the middle of a city street with people around.

Mr.Nice Guy

I liked the episode and I'm digging Walker's character. There was a Homelander vibe to the final scene. I find him to be the most sympathetic character and I don't get the hate for him. He's just been trying to do his best, and Sam's plan had me just as annoyed as Walker. And then his best friend gets killed by the terrorists that Sam and Bucky wanted to play nice with. Not really a good look when your two protagonists are left looking like nitwits.

This show seems desperate for me to sympathise with Karli, who has killed innocent people without any regrets, and has now threatened innocent kids. I can't stand her. Prattling on about Mama Donya like some character in The Fiddler on The Roof is bad enough, but she just doesn't come across as intimidating whatsoever. And why did she bother battling with the mask on? Seems counter-productive. She has go away heat with me whenever she's on screen.

I feel like this series is leading to a conclusion with Sam and Bucky trying to stop Walker from killing Karli. I really hope not, as I don't think that will work, even if she ends up expressing regret, gets close to Sam's sister, or whatever. I want this series to end with Karli getting killed off by Walker, ideally followed by him draping an American flag over her. The flag-smasher gets smashed by the flag-waver.

beakerjoe

I dont see Cap Walker as being a Homelander type character.

Hes in it for the right reasons and his own shortcomings, the weight of expectations and lack of respect have all allowed his frustartions to grow. Hes not a dick, hes got initial good intentions and seems more misguided than evil.

The death of Battlestar will/has changed him. Hes snapped and now has the motivation to go HAM bad.

Loved the episode. Simple, yet effective. Everything has moved along nicely. Karli has been fleshed out, not so one dimensional now. Zemo has been a joy to watch... like you have to always keep an eye on him.

The end scene was well built from episode 1 and it ramped up here until the final scene. Great visual and a satisfying character transformation. Very enjoyable

Ave Sodalis

I have to say, I haven't commented on this thread because I found the series quite "meh" until now. I thought it was pretty generic, and just going through the same trope motions without adding anything to make it their own. Sam and Bucky's interactions weren't as good as they were in the movies. I was watching it, but I almost forgot about this week's episode and wasn't too bothered.

So glad I watched it though! It really stepped up another gear this week. Looking forward to next week now!

expectationlost

did Karli know Falcon's (sister) was turned down by the bank

expectationlost

is there some every scene with Karli (or where she is mentioned) edit on youtube ?

The Golden Miller

You can see where this is going. Zemo will instigate some situation or fight with the hero's and this Power Broker. After that, or at some point, Bucky will batter this new Captain America and take the shield but not the mantle

AlmightyCushion

expectationlost wrote: »

those Wakanda warriors are hella incompetent

Prone to over-reacting as well. Cap 2 goes to slap her on the arm and she tries to kill him.

The Golden Miller

Bucky should be made the new Captain America. The rightful heir. Best friend, super soldier, from the same era and moral standing. Well liked character too and interesting

Tazzimus

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Bucky should be made the new Captain America. The rightful heir. Best friend, super soldier, from the same era and moral standing. Well liked character too and interesting

Steve would have given the shield to him if he thought he was the right man for the job, both Steve and Bucky knew he wasn't.

I know he's Cap at some stage in the comics, but they haven't gone down that road yet.

beakerjoe

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Bucky should be made the new Captain America. The rightful heir. Best friend, super soldier, from the same era and moral standing. Well liked character too and interesting

But theres no story in him just being a new Capt. This story is the right way to go. Much more meat to it

The Golden Miller

Tazzimus wrote: »

Steve would have given the shield to him if he thought he was the right man for the job, both Steve and Bucky knew he wasn't.

I know he's Cap at some stage in the comics, but they haven't gone down that road yet.

Well giving it to a non super soldier isn't the right man either

flazio

Soundtrack for episodes 1 to 3 is now available.
Spotify link.
https://open.spotify.com/album/5rA2ipMGRAUO9MRODPHoHG?si=cgTUN_voTPeABe_V5icihA&utm_source=copy-link

steve_r

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I have to say, I haven't commented on this thread because I found the series quite "meh" until now. I thought it was pretty generic, and just going through the same trope motions without adding anything to make it their own. Sam and Bucky's interactions weren't as good as they were in the movies. I was watching it, but I almost forgot about this week's episode and wasn't too bothered.

So glad I watched it though! It really stepped up another gear this week. Looking forward to next week now!

Same - this was a real step up this week

beakerjoe wrote: »

I dont see Cap Walker as being a Homelander type character.

Hes in it for the right reasons and his own shortcomings, the weight of expectations and lack of respect have all allowed his frustartions to grow. Hes not a dick, hes got initial good intentions and seems more misguided than evil.

The death of Battlestar will/has changed him. Hes snapped and now has the motivation to go HAM bad.

Loved the episode. Simple, yet effective. Everything has moved along nicely. Karli has been fleshed out, not so one dimensional now. Zemo has been a joy to watch... like you have to always keep an eye on him.

The end scene was well built from episode 1 and it ramped up here until the final scene. Great visual and a satisfying character transformation. Very enjoyable

I think the show has actually done a very good job of showing the danger of putting someone with the wrong personality into the Captain America role. Steve Rogers was perfect for the role because he was a fundamentally decent and kind person, who was patriotic in the best possible way.

Walker is a patriot, but in a darker, more vicious way. The show is doing a very good job in showing how a figure like that can become a hate figure very quickly.

Lithium93_

Don't know who said it, but the fight between Tony, Steve & Bucky in Captain America: Civil War, when Bucky tried ripping out Tony's reactor, Bucky didn't have the Vibranium arm - he wasn't given that until Avengers: Infinity War.

Tazzimus

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Well giving it to a non super soldier isn't the right man either

He gave it to Sam because he was "A good man", the reason Steve was picked for the process in the first place.

He held his own against the flag smashers reasonably well, despite not being enhanced.
Being a super soldier doesn't mean you're a good fit for being Cap, Walker proves that quite well.

AbusesToilets

steve_r wrote: »

Same - this was a real step up this week



I think the show has actually done a very good job of showing the danger of putting someone with the wrong personality into the Captain America role. Steve Rogers was perfect for the role because he was a fundamentally decent and kind person, who was patriotic in the best possible way.

Walker is a patriot, but in a darker, more vicious way. The show is doing a very good job in showing how a figure like that can become a hate figure very quickly.

There's also a fundamental difference between Walker and Rogers, in that Walker was a real soldier. He's fought in battles as man on the ground. Rogers was only ever a promotional figurehead (in the MCU), who finally got to do some heroing towards the end. Walker by contrast has decades of tough service before getting the gig.

I think the show is doing a good job of building on the themes of guys carrying the weight of their actions, how they've been damaged by them. It's also a bit of a nice rebuke to the neutered reality of superheros seeing Walker kill that dude.

Mr.Nice Guy

As regards the right personality for Captain America, maybe the uncomfortable truth is that Walker is exactly the right personality for a modern day Captain America? He'd be the wrong one for the 1940s sure, but the US has changed a lot since then. It was said when Kennedy was shot, that was 'the day America lost its innoncence'. Well, it lost plenty more since then. Remember 74 million Americans fancied 4 more years of Donald Trump.

I'd like to see the show delve into that in the next episode. The Boys touched on this theme to some extent with how Stormfront was able to whip up the flames of the American right. Perhaps Walker's actions will end up being cheered on by certain quarters, much to the dismay of Sam and Bucky.

That would in itself raise an interesting question: should the shield be held by someone who embodies certain ideals, something pure and utopian, or should it be held by someone who represents what America really is: uncompromising, with narrow interests, and willing to be ruthless.

In other words, in 2021 does the world need Captain America, or Captain America First?

Varik

As good a person as Rogers was he had a naïve view of the world. Like a million other who went off to fight the good fight and beat the bullies, but unlike those who went off with the same idealistic notion after he got his power he got to keep them. He didn't get confronted by his own limitations.

The US nuked a country to end WW2, and even before that all sides committed mass air bombings on civilian targets. Any innocence stops when the bombs start.

The notion of the US having a new Cap America is kind of stupid, if he's a normal human he can just get killed as easily as one.

beakerjoe

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

As regards the right personality for Captain America, maybe the uncomfortable truth is that Walker is exactly the right personality for a modern day Captain America? He'd be the wrong one for the 1940s sure, but the US has changed a lot since then. It was said when Kennedy was shot, that was 'the day America lost its innoncence'. Well, it lost plenty more since then. Remember 74 million Americans fancied 4 more years of Donald Trump.

I'd like to see the show delve into that in the next episode. The Boys touched on this theme to some extent with how Stormfront was able to whip up the flames of the American right. Perhaps Walker's actions will end up being cheered on by certain quarters, much to the dismay of Sam and Bucky.

That would in itself raise an interesting question: should the shield be held by someone who embodies certain ideals, something pure and utopian, or should it be held by someone who represents what America really is: uncompromising, with narrow interests, and willing to be ruthless.

In other words, in 2021 does the world need Captain America, or Captain America First?

Rodgers was chosen because of his morals, selflessness and his ability to appreciate his power.

Walker was chosen to be a symbol more than anything.

Both completly different people.

Id argue the world needs Rodgers more than Walker in 2021 and always will, however Walker suits the modern day outlook of America more though. Doing what ever it takes to achieve its goal, no matter what the means is, regardless of whether its right or wrong.

Rodgers had moral limits.... Walker may not.

FunLover18

I’m enjoying this show as a piece of weekly entertainment but man the writing is really clumsy sometimes. Sam telling us his aunt died and that they had a week long ceremony so he could ponder if there will be something similar to Donya, such a long winded way of saying there might be funeral, all so we can have some weird exchange about Sam calling his aunt Ti-ti. Then Karli’s friend reading out the text from the Power Broker, I thought that was really cringe.

Overall I think the biggest problem I have is that the titular characters aren’t friends and I don’t see them being friends by the end of this show because the only thing they have in common is a mutual friend. This is being sold as a buddy-comedy but I just don’t get the sense that underneath all of the “bickering” (and there hasn’t even been a lot of it) these two are actually buddies or even like each other. The first episode gave us a glimpse into their backgrounds but background is not the same as personality. Wandavision took three episodes to establish the format of the show but also to establish Wanda and Vision as a couple which we had only got glimpses of in the films. In TF&TWS we didn’t even see the main characters in the same scene until the second episode. These characters were amongst the weakest defined in the MCU (Bucky in particular was hard done by) and I really hoped this show was going to rectify that but I am disappointed so far.

Re Walker, on the Empire podcast Chris Hewitt speculated that Walker is the kind of patriot who thinks it’s a crime to spit on the American flag and as Cap he now sees himself as the embodiment of the flag which I think makes sense. He may represent a certain portion of the population and I’ll be interested to see what the wider aftermath of this week’s ending will be but I think Captain America has to hold certain ideals, I’ve always seen him as Marvel’s Superman, truth, justice and the American way, etc.

Slydice

4: :eek:

Could see it leading into that but I thought it was going to be Karli the victim.

. Daniel Brühl still doing a great job as Zemo. The

fight where the Dora Milaje turned up

was great.

Had to check the who has written the last two episode. Looks like this was the last one the John Wick writer, Derek Kolstad, was involved with.
5 - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9212996/fullcredits
6 - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9212998/fullcredits


Wierdest thing is,

I'm not sure why anyone thinks that seeing the shield with blood on it like that was..

amazing.. Maybe I'm taking the word amazing a bit differently.

FileNotFound

Slydice wrote: »

4: :eek:

Could see it leading into that but I thought it was going to be Karli the victim.

. Daniel Brühl still doing a great job as Zemo. The

fight where the Dora Milaje turned up

was great.

Had to check the who has written the last two episode. Looks like this was the last one the John Wick writer, Derek Kolstad, was involved with.
5 - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9212996/fullcredits
6 - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9212998/fullcredits


Wierdest thing is,

I'm not sure why anyone thinks that seeing the shield with blood on it like that was..

amazing.. Maybe I'm taking the word amazing a bit differently.

It's the fact new cap becomes something he never was.

Judge, Jury & Executioner all on camera on PUBLIC

. It was a change of pace, moment of darkness from a marvel show...

At least that was it for me.

Slydice

so that made you think.. amazing?

fitz

Slydice wrote: »

so that made you think.. amazing?

Amazing is probably the wrong word, but it's a very strong visual - the tainting of the shield is a simple and striking representation of Walker's actions doing the same to the idea and legacy of the Captain America title. It just looks wrong... Thought it was a great visual choice tbh, and probably the best shot of the show so far.

Midnight_EG

Amazing was absolutely the correct word for that final panning scene. We've spent 13 years building up the MCU as a 'clean' set of action movies that don't generally show gore or menace in the way of murder. The same time, we've grown to love characters that are honourable and set in their heroic ways and wouldn't hurt a fly outside of a baddie, especially with Steve and we'd never question if anybody was doing the right thing because they always were. We now have a character who, at the core of it, is the right version of Captain America that the World needs, and yes we don't like him because he's not Steve but he portrays what America and the World wants.

John Walker seemed to be the unwavering, all-American hero that suited the mantra down to a tee, but that scene just screamed with intensity and harrowing sense of 'What the actual f*ck' is about to happen and it did, it really did happen. Battlestars back being broken and the whole air of the situation changed, as a viewer I felt it deep down and knew something was happening. I never for a second thought we'd be subjected to an absolute change of tone such as what we got. The World has changed, the MCU has changed, and the mindset of our old and new favourite characters has changed. It was AMAZING.

flazio

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Amazing was absolutely the correct word for that final panning scene. We've spent 13 years building up the MCU as a 'clean' set of action movies that don't generally show gore or menace in the way of murder. The same time, we've grown to love characters that are honourable and set in their heroic ways and wouldn't hurt a fly outside of a baddie, especially with Steve and we'd never question if anybody was doing the right thing because they always were. We now have a character who, at the core of it, is the right version of Captain America that the World needs, and yes we don't like him because he's not Steve but he portrays what America and the World wants.

John Walker seemed to be the unwavering, all-American hero that suited the mantra down to a tee, but that scene just screamed with intensity and harrowing sense of 'What the actual f*ck' is about to happen and it did, it really did happen. Battlestars back being broken and the whole air of the situation changed, as a viewer I felt it deep down and knew something was happening. I never for a second thought we'd be subjected to an absolute change of tone such as what we got. The World has changed, the MCU has changed, and the mindset of our old and new favourite characters has changed. It was AMAZING.

You make it sound like the Netflix Defenders set of programmes never counted. Take a look at Daredevil or The Punisher for that matter. One man turning the Captains shield into a human pizza cutter doesn't mean that the Avengers were fighting for the wrong side all along.

RedRochey

I know some people don't watch trailers so I'll spoiler this

but we know Sam gets the shield back, we see him practising throwing it on some trees, so my guess is the shield is taken off Walker by Sam (or the government but I don't know why they would give it back to Sam), Walker goes full psycho and tries to kill Karli and Sam/Bucky defends her using the shield

FileNotFound

Slydice wrote: »

so that made you think.. amazing?

Amazing is a bit strong, but it was a good change from my eternal disappointment in the marvel series...

I guess everything is relative.

Midnight_EG

flazio wrote: »

You make it sound like the Netflix Defenders set of programmes never counted. Take a look at Daredevil or The Punisher for that matter. One man turning the Captains shield into a human pizza cutter doesn't mean that the Avengers were fighting for the wrong side all along.

Indeed, because they didn't. WandaVision and TFATWS tie into the MCU movies like I said in my first comment. The Defenders shows have nothing to do, so far, with the broader MCU and so aren't relevant to my whole point which it seems you missed.

tbahh

Anyone else find that Karli one annoying? It's as if they are trying to make her this big, menacing force but she lacks a lot of substance and comes across more as a wet fart. It's almost like the actress was given her lines ten minutes before shooting and just saying them without actually acting. Plus the character's reasoning for doing certain things is quite stupid.

tbahh

tbahh wrote: »

Anyone else find that Karli one annoying? It's as if they are trying to make her this big, menacing force but she lacks a lot of substance and comes across more as a wet fart. It's almost like the actress was given her lines ten minutes before shooting and just saying them without actually acting. Plus the character's reasoning for doing certain things is quite stupid.

Honestly I get they have a super soldier syrum but it'd very hard to make most women physically imposing so she's going to be less imposing as an enforcer type character anyway I'd think

EoinMcLovin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQSHrgjayz8

Cotts72

EoinMcLovin wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQSHrgjayz8

Love that bit where carlie kicks the cap shield away after being thrown at her!

Homelander

Am I mad or mid-season? There's only 2 episodes left out 6 and there's no break at all.

CastorTroy

That's why I didn't watch if it was going to show clips from the final 2 episodes.

tbahh

William Shapely Inch wrote: »

Honestly I get they have a super soldier syrum but it'd very hard to make most women physically imposing so she's going to be less imposing as an enforcer type character anyway I'd think

Nah, it's not really about being physically imposing. For example, Captain Marvel has superhuman strength but you wouldn't think it by looking at her. The actress playing Carli is just not very convincing in her role, reminding me, for example, of Emilia Clarke and Kit Harrington in the first few seasons of Game of Thrones - they dramatically improved as the series progressed, especially Emilia.


I'm finding this series okay, not amazing but not poor either. I've been watching it weekly and the story is coming across as direction less. It feels more like what has come previously in the MCU unlike Wandavision, which was more daring and intuitive. Whereas Wandavision embraced the TV format, F&WS feels more like a movie, split up into different parts. Most intriguing characters I'm liking are John Walker, Sharon Carter and, of course, Zemo. I prefer Falcon. I've always found Bucky to be dull and used as a plot device without actually much development as a character. Mandipoor also looked pretty cool.

flazio

The Carli actor, Erin Kellyman, is only 22 and has a fairly limited acting CV
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm7210986/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
Biggest role was in the Star Wars flop "Solo"
Born to a Jamaican father and an Irish mother and raised in London. She's one of ours, lads.