The Falcon And The Winter Soldier - Miniseries - Disney + (***Spoilers***)

Gbear

I'm getting the ultimate feeling (notwithstanding the last few episodes), that neither this nor Wandavsion merited the number of episodes, or benefitted from the extended format.

Wandvision seemed to have some interesting ideas but petered out into a bland superhero punch thingy, and left much of what seemed intriguing about it as red herrings. Falcon... is superhero-spy thriller 101, needlessly split into more bits than normal.

I kinda just don't see the point.

They're fine, but whatever hope I had that the episodic format might be an interesting new direction for the MCU doesn't seem to have been born out.

Films have a strong link to their income, which is measured in box office receipts, but something like this is a bit more indirect. It makes less sense for them to be so bland and straightforward. Will this calibre of film make people want to subscribe to Disney+ in the long term? A film is an event, and you get the spectacle of a theatre experience, and it's something to do of a Tuesday evening, or whatever. A monthly subscription to watch stuff that's just grand doesn't seem like a winner to me.

tbahh

flazio wrote: »

The Carli actor, Erin Kellyman, is only 22 and has a fairly limited acting CV
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm7210986/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
Biggest role was in the Star Wars flop "Solo"
Born to a Jamaican father and an Irish mother and raised in London. She's one of ours lads.

She'll be joining Fair City soon. :pac:

Exactly, she'll no doubt improve the more roles she gets. Come to think of it, Carli is similar to Bucky as a plot device character. It wouldn't surprise me if she's killed off in the next or last episode by John Walker or Power Broker.

FileNotFound

Gbear wrote: »

I'm getting the ultimate feeling (notwithstanding the last few episodes), that neither this nor Wandavsion merited the number of episodes, or benefitted from the extended format.

Wandvision seemed to have some interesting ideas but petered out into a bland superhero punch thingy, and left much of what seemed intriguing about it as red herrings. Falcon... is superhero-spy thriller 101, needlessly split into more bits than normal.

I kinda just don't see the point.

They're fine, but whatever hope I had that the episodic format might be an interesting new direction for the MCU doesn't seem to have been born out.

Films have a strong link to their income, which is measured in box office receipts, but something like this is a bit more indirect. It makes less sense for them to be so bland and straightforward. Will this calibre of film make people want to subscribe to Disney+ in the long term? A film is an event, and you get the spectacle of a theatre experience, and it's something to do of a Tuesday evening, or whatever. A monthly subscription to watch stuff that's just grand doesn't seem like a winner to me.

You don't see the point in tv shows? Or you think these ones have been disappointing?

These are handy production to add new content and use some cheaper to cast secondary characters, if one shows extra promise then they may progress it further. Or maybe a number of standalone series will start to converge.

I mean the original Captain America to me was pretty poor - but it built the character that became important to the main series.

I see these as a filler or a base and either is fine - Maybe dragged out a bit to be fair but I cannot help enjoying having something new to watch each week during lockdown - even if all i do is complain about it.

tbahh

Gbear wrote: »

I'm getting the ultimate feeling (notwithstanding the last few episodes), that neither this nor Wandavsion merited the number of episodes, or benefitted from the extended format.

Wandvision seemed to have some interesting ideas but petered out into a bland superhero punch thingy, and left much of what seemed intriguing about it as red herrings. Falcon... is superhero-spy thriller 101, needlessly split into more bits than normal.

I kinda just don't see the point.

They're fine, but whatever hope I had that the episodic format might be an interesting new direction for the MCU doesn't seem to have been born out.

Films have a strong link to their income, which is measured in box office receipts, but something like this is a bit more indirect. It makes less sense for them to be so bland and straightforward. Will this calibre of film make people want to subscribe to Disney+ in the long term? A film is an event, and you get the spectacle of a theatre experience, and it's something to do of a Tuesday evening, or whatever. A monthly subscription to watch stuff that's just grand doesn't seem like a winner to me.

Wanda and Vision are more interesting characters. It took more chances, and while not everything was delivered smoothly, there was a bit of hype around the series. Even the thread on here was quite animated.

F&WS is just a typical run-of-the-mill superhero adaptation. Even the name sounds too long - Bucky and Falcon surely would have sufficed. Wandavision primarily took place in the same location for like 90% of the time. I think F&WS must have passed 10 by now and the constant displacement of characters grows weary. Looks like they are

back in the US

for next week's episode.

It's also smart of Disney to release it weekly. Loki is up next an its slot will be taken over with different MCU universe shows for as long as Disney+ lasts.

Gbear

FileNotFound wrote: »

You don't see the point in tv shows? Or you think these ones have been disappointing?

These are handy production to add new content and use some cheaper to cast secondary characters, if one shows extra promise then they may progress it further. Or maybe a number of standalone series will start to converge.

I don't see the point in using an episodic format to tell these stories.

Episodic storytelling gives you options for character development, week to week drama, b-plots and developing minor characters (we get a little of that with Darcy and Sharon Carter). On a narrative level, it gives you perhaps more scope to tackle more complex or nuanced ideas.

Even on a hype level, there's the sort of water cooler chat element.

I don't think they've done any of that well enough so far to be worth stringing viewers along. The water cooler chat, or the online version we're mostly limited too, has mostly seemed to be about blue-balling viewers in Wandavision, or non-existent for this, because there's not really much mystery.

The early episodes of Wandavision were probably hurt by being strung out across a period of weeks. The show would probably hold together better and feel like less of a let down if it was in 3-5 episodes.

You could probably trim Falcon... into a single film, add some extra exploding heli-carrier stuff like in The Winter Soldier, and you'd have a decent evening's entertainment and it'd make like a billion dollars in non-covid cinemas.

FileNotFound wrote: »

I mean the original Captain America to me was pretty poor - but it built the character that became important to the main series.

I see these as a filler or a base and either is fine - Maybe dragged out a bit to be fair but I cannot help enjoying having something new to watch each week during lockdown - even if all i do is complain about it.

The cinema experience no doubt papers over some cracks with a lot of the Marvel films, but they do have that spectacle at least. Shorn of that, they can be, with some exceptions, second rate sci-fi/fantasy thrillers. If this show doesn't even have that, and all it has is mere novelty, that's damning with faint praise if I've ever heard it.

Foxtrol

Gbear wrote: »

I'm getting the ultimate feeling (notwithstanding the last few episodes), that neither this nor Wandavsion merited the number of episodes, or benefitted from the extended format.

Wandvision seemed to have some interesting ideas but petered out into a bland superhero punch thingy, and left much of what seemed intriguing about it as red herrings. Falcon... is superhero-spy thriller 101, needlessly split into more bits than normal.

I kinda just don't see the point.

They're fine, but whatever hope I had that the episodic format might be an interesting new direction for the MCU doesn't seem to have been born out.

Films have a strong link to their income, which is measured in box office receipts, but something like this is a bit more indirect. It makes less sense for them to be so bland and straightforward. Will this calibre of film make people want to subscribe to Disney+ in the long term? A film is an event, and you get the spectacle of a theatre experience, and it's something to do of a Tuesday evening, or whatever. A monthly subscription to watch stuff that's just grand doesn't seem like a winner to me.

I wouldn't say it is accurate to claim it cant be measured as directly - with analytics Disney can see exactly what shows are attracting and keeping subscribers to Disney+, for example WandaVision was tracked as the highest streamed show while it was on. Even pre COVID, Disney had to balance the number of MCU films it releases in a given year and wanted to find a way to tell stories and make money from more of their lesser known characters.

I've said it repeatedly on these threads but I just don't get the argument that these shows could be films - is this supposed to be a negative? That same argument can be made for nearly every single mini-series I've ever seen, yet somehow I've only ever seen it be made for these MCU series. I'd argue that thanks to the mini-series format the character development of the two shows so far, WandaVision especially, has helped connect viewers to these 'B-Team' at best characters far greater than previously, as well as introduce new characters, provide background, and move along the overall MCU world.

PTH2009

stupid question but will we find out about what/where Steve Rogers is now ?

He aged but didn't die ?

flazio

It's not dumb, but let's just say he's "enjoying retirement".

Penn

PTH2009 wrote: »

stupid question but will we find out about what/where Steve Rogers is now ?

He aged but didn't die ?

I'd say it's more than likely he died soon after. TFATWS is set several months after the events of Endgame. I'd say when Steve came back at that point, it was because he knew he didn't have long left.

Brief_Lives

he came back at that time because that was the same point in time he went all over, fixing the infinity stones from the time heist....

Penn

Brief_Lives wrote: »

he came back at that time because that was the same point in time he went all over, fixing the infinity stones from the time heist....

Agreed, but he could have came back at that time at any point or at any age. Even if that point in time was 2023, he could have lived in the alternative timeline he stayed in with Peggy until 2025 and still returned to that point in time to give the shield to Sam.

So he could have waited until he knew he was nearing his death in the alternate timeline (whether it be say 1995, or 2035 depending on the effects of the super soldier serum keeping him alive longer), and still returned to that point in 2023 of the main timeline.

AndyBoBandy

Brief_Lives wrote: »

he came back at that time because that was the same point in time he went all over, fixing the infinity stones from the time heist....

I took it that he travelled around time fixing everything with the stones etc..., and then his last time travel was back to be with Carter in the 40's, and then he simply grew old, and walked/drove to the point in time where he 'returns' as old... and didn't actually time jump back to that point... either that, or he did indeed time travel back to that point after Carter died in the Winter Soldier timeline.

Either way, I wouldn't assume him to be dead, he's a super soldier. probably just retired off somewhere....

would LOVE a cameo before the show wraps up.....

AndyBoBandy

Also, given there is now an alternate Steve Rodgers living his full life with Peggy, and growing old.... there is a possibility he could show up somewhere in Loki, given all the time skipping high jinks that show is going to serve up..

Penn

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

I took it that he travelled around time fixing everything with the stones etc..., and then his last time travel was back to be with Carter in the 40's, and then he simply grew old, and walked/drove to the point in time where he 'returns' as old... and didn't actually time jump back to that point... either that, or he did indeed time travel back to that point after Carter died in the Winter Soldier timeline.

Either way, I wouldn't assume him to be dead, he's a super soldier. probably just retired off somewhere....

would LOVE a cameo before the show wraps up.....

The way they set up the time travel stuff is that if you go back and change something, it creates a new separate timeline. That's why they had to return the stones back to the exact time they took them from, to prevent a new timeline being created.

But by Steve staying in the past with Peggy, that created a new timeline that he stayed in. Which means he would have needed to use the time travel device to return back to the main timeline that he originally left from.

Midnight_EG

Steve is on a Moon base, didn't you listen to Sam and Torres conversation in Ep.1 :pac:

AlmightyCushion

I think old Steve looks a little like Joe Biden. I reckon he is living in our timeline and changed his name. From Captain America to Commander in Chief. Not bad, Steve.

RedRochey

Saw a youtube breakdown of how the whole show seems to have been rewritten because it had a plot based on a virus, obviously with covid they thought it would be better to change it, there's some scenes were you don't see the person who is speaking so could've been added post production and especially the bit about that woman dying, shes a big actor so strange that that's all she did in the show

Mitch Connor

RedRochey wrote: »

Saw a youtube breakdown of how the whole show seems to have been rewritten because it had a plot based on a virus, obviously with covid they thought it would be better to change it, there's some scenes were you don't see the person who is speaking so could've been added post production and especially the bit about that woman dying, shes a big actor so strange that that's all she did in the show

which would explain them stealing the medicine. Which at the moment is just.... medicine, but had it been virus related it would have been the vaccine or cure.

Interesting.

Is it just speculation or is there something concrete saying it was reworked?

RedRochey

Mitch Connor wrote: »

which would explain them stealing the medicine. Which at the moment is just.... medicine, but had it been virus related it would have been the vaccine or cure.

Interesting.

Is it just speculation or is there something concrete saying it was reworked?

Think they mentioned in an article about how they had to rewrite the script because of covid, could've just been location issues or something like that

Here's the video:
https://youtu.be/VhKIAHABGac

Lithium93_

Random train of thought, what if Sharon isn't the Power Broker, but a misdirect.

Could be an interesting way to introduce

Wilson Fisk/Kingpin

into the MCU continuity.

santana75

Sebastian stan is looking more and more like Noel Gallagher every week

Gbear

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Random train of thought, what if Sharon isn't the Power Broker, but a misdirect.

Could be an interesting way to introduce

Wilson Fisk/Kingpin

into the MCU continuity.

Or maybe they'll tease it being Vincent D'Onofrio, but then it turns out he's actually a chicken suit repairman called "Chode Bummington".

One posters puts something in a spoiler for a reason then another poster comes in at tells everyone what is in the spoiler. That is a total c u next tuesday thing to do.

FileNotFound

I read something that any show that the characters use iphones in allows you to spot the bad guy.

Apple allow movies and tv to use there products but will not allow its use by the bad guy/girl.


Didn't bother to look but would be interesting if it turned out Sharon is the only one not using an iphone!!!!

Mitch Connor

PespiChallenge wrote: »

One posters puts something in a spoiler for a reason then another poster comes in at tells everyone what is in the spoiler. That is a total c u next week thing to do.

Meh. Its speculation. It isn't fact, it isn't spoiling anything that has happened. It isn't spoiling anything that will happen based on trailers or set photos.

It is speculation about the hidden identity of a named character on the show.

FunLover18

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Meh. Its speculation. It isn't fact, it isn't spoiling anything that has happened. It isn't spoiling anything that will happen based on trailers or set photos.

It is speculation about the hidden identity of a named character on the show.

If the speculation is correct it still takes away from the impact of the reveal. Some people are ok with that, some people would prefer know as little as possible. Spoiler tags helps both groups.

Mitch Connor

FileNotFound wrote: »

I read something that any show that the characters use iphones in allows you to spot the bad guy.

Apple allow movies and tv to use there products but will not allow its use by the bad guy/girl.


Didn't bother to look but would be interesting if it turned out Sharon is the only one not using an iphone!!!!

I've heard that, but don't know if it is true. and I am convinced the youtube vieo i saw that spoke about that was pointing out specific examples of it not being the case.

FileNotFound

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I've heard that, but don't know if it is true. and I am convinced the youtube vieo i saw that spoke about that was pointing out specific examples of it not being the case.

Could well be BS - was just in some online article i read. If it were true it would be a silly give away.

steve_r

I had thought this was bs and that frank Underwood and Doug stamper used iPhones in House of cards.... blackberries and Nokia’s

Rian Johnson apparently revealed this

robinph

tbahh wrote: »

Even the name sounds too long - Bucky and Falcon surely would have sufficed.

Only if the show was about pink unicorns which could fly and it was showing next to the Disney Princess section of the app. Bucky has to be one of the least superhero sounding character names ever.

Either that or it would be a Harry Potter spin off series.

Mitch Connor

I reckon the end of the show will have a title card of: Captain America and the White Wolf.

With the arc of the show being Sam earning/becoming ready to be a new Captain America and Bucky moving past the overriding guilt of who he was (brainwashed/controlled by Hydra), and embracing who he can be now and who he truly is.

AndyBoBandy

I was watching an interview with Daniel Bruhl and they asked about dancing Zemo... and the reaction to it, and he said it was totally unscripted, and he was in the club, full of people, and just felt the groove so dropped a few moves, thinking it would be immediately cut, but they left a snippet in, which worked brilliantly in my opinion.

I really hope Baron Zemo gets to stick around beyond just this show....

shawki

Post Credits Scene today

Mitch Connor

Thought it a much weaker episode this week, which was disappointing and surprising given it is the second last episode. Spent a weird amount of time on community feels.

Will be looking forward to episode 6, but 5 is probably the weakest of the bunch from my end.

beakerjoe

God Im a sucker for a post credits scene, regardless of whats in it...... Whats wrong with me

Agent Coulson

Val is supposed to be introduced in Black Widow which was due to air before this.

Mitch Connor

I stand by thinking it was a weaker episode, but it did make it clearer the potential issue of Sam representing America, or more specifically, is America something Sam wants to be a symbol of.

Also, I thought the bit with Walker at the beginning was good - even before the fight. His anger, at himself, the kneeling behind the shield - just some very good moments.

Penn

I really enjoyed the episode. Possibly a bit too much downtime in the episode with too much boat-repairing, and there didn't seem to be much need for the training montage considering a) he was throwing and catching the shield just fine with Bucky just before, and b) he's already fit, but no amount of training is going to make him super-soldier fast/strong so it's not like he's able to improve enough through training.

But, I enjoyed a lot of the character work. Walker's scenes were particular highlights, I think Wyatt Russell did an amazing job. Their fight scene was really well done too. Sam & Isaiah, and Bucky & Zemo's scenes were brilliant, though a bit of a damp squib if that's the end of Zemo's arc. Sam & Bucky's own scenes together were fantastic too.

A very slow episode, but had to be to set things up for the finale. Hasn't been the greatest show ever, but I've really enjoyed it throughout. It does occupy that space of not being big enough to be a movie, but I think what they've packed in to a six episode run has been well worth it.

Mitch Connor

Penn wrote: »

I really enjoyed the episode. Possibly a bit too much downtime in the episode with too much boat-repairing, and there didn't seem to be much need for the training montage considering a) he was throwing and catching the shield just fine with Bucky just before, and b) he's already fit, but no amount of training is going to make him super-soldier fast/strong so it's not like he's able to improve enough through training.

But, I enjoyed a lot of the character work. Walker's scenes were particular highlights, I think Wyatt Russell did an amazing job. Their fight scene was really well done too. Sam & Isaiah, and Bucky & Zemo's scenes were brilliant, though a bit of a damp squib if that's the end of Zemo's arc. Sam & Bucky's own scenes together were fantastic too.

A very slow episode, but had to be to set things up for the finale. Hasn't been the greatest show ever, but I've really enjoyed it throughout. It does occupy that space of not being big enough to be a movie, but I think what they've packed in to a six episode run has been well worth it.

Will be interesting to see what the new suit is, and how that impacts his abilities as a super hero. I would assume wings, but also assume there will be some wakandan tech in their to improve speed and strength, similar to Iron Man suit.

Midnight_EG

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Will be interesting to see what the new suit is, and how that impacts his abilities as a super hero. I would assume wings, but also assume there will be some wakandan tech in their to improve speed and strength, similar to Iron Man suit.

Hopefully there's percussive powers like BP's suit to offset the need for superhuman strength and power.

Penn

We also got confirmation this episode that Steve told Bucky what he was planning before going back in time, which was a good decision imo. Makes the most sense.

FunLover18

Well for me that was the best episode so far and it had all the stuff I wanted from this series like Bucky and Sam actually having a proper conversation and bonding. Bucky apologisinh for not understanding what it mean to give the shield to a black man was a great touch. Sam and Isaiah was a conversation that also needed to be had and I'm glad they didn't dance around it. I'm intrigued at the choice to lock Zemo again but glad he'll be around in the future.

Lithium93_

I can't see Zemo being locked up in The Raft for long, especially if it's under General Ross's jurisdiction.

FunLover18

Lithium93_ wrote: »

I can't see Zemo being locked up in The Raft for long, especially if it's under General Ross's jurisdiction.

Did they say they were taking him to The Raft? I assumed he was going to Wakanda

Lithium93_

FunLover18 wrote: »

Did they say they were taking him to The Raft? I assumed he was going to Wakanda

Yeah, that's what I heard one of the Dora Milaje guards say.

joficeduns1

The opening fight was brilliant, will definitely go back to watch it again. Some elongated downtime was maybe unnecessary but I didn't mind. Excited for the finale next week.

The White Wolf

I really liked the opposing views of Sam and Walker in this episode.

Walker's justified anger at a system that built him up only to tear down, a system that probably wouldn't have given a fcuk had he murdered your man with no camera to record him.

Sam looking to the younger generation as opposed the older in determining what he needs to do.

Strongest episode yet and probably my favourite across this and Wandavision. How fantastic to see Dreyfuss in the MCU as well, RDJ levels of charisma from her.

Midnight_EG

We might see Hydra Cap if Val converts him

Homelander

Thought it was a fairly weak episode myself, it's just not remotely convincing for me personally in the same way that Wandavision felt more organic and had a reasonably solid script behind it that was a fair extension on the existing MCU.

Falcon and Winter Soldier to me feels like a live action cartoon for kids, with the odd moment of interest, like Walker, but even that is nowhere near fleshed out as much as it could've been....but the general dialogue and scripting is just really clunky, loose and outrageously convenient.

Obviously I'll watch the finale but I found that episode a struggle to stay invested, and the previous one I felt the same until the last 10/15 minutes.

expectationlost

all the focus on the shield in that fight was a bit silly, its like 3 boys fighting over a toy. its mine, no its mine!