General Premier League Thread 2019-20

AdamD

For the people against millimeter decisions - what do you actually want VAR to do? You can't just subjectively start letting stuff go, what amount of distance is 'too small'? It's a ridiculous position to hold, you're either offside or you're not.

PhlegmyMoses

AdamD wrote: »

For the people against millimeter decisions - what do you actually want VAR to do? You can't just subjectively start letting stuff go, what amount of distance is 'too small'? It's a ridiculous position to hold, you're either offside or you're not.

Well it is changing. The IFAB have come out and said that it isn't being used correctly and cannot be considered accurate enough for it to make the decision for you. You cannot be confident in those mm decision either because the Tech is not that accurate. There will be a directive to move it towards clear and obvious, one or two looks without those lines drawn, and move on if you cant find an issue.

AdamD

AdamD wrote: »

For the people against millimeter decisions - what do you actually want VAR to do? You can't just subjectively start letting stuff go, what amount of distance is 'too small'? It's a ridiculous position to hold, you're either offside or you're not.

There's even some on here saying anything onside should be given as onside. Fine, but that's not going to solve the millimetre decisions - it just shifts the line, but not the fineness of it.

PhlegmyMoses

Just in case anybody missed it, from the Guardian quoting Lukas Brud, general secretary of IFAB:

In general terms, that advice will be that technology cannot definitively make a ruling on offside as it can over whether a shot has crossed the goal line, and that therefore VAR should only be used to correct “clear and obvious” mistakes.

“Clear and obvious still remains - it’s an important principle. There should not be a lot of time spent to find something marginal,” Brud told PA Sport.

“If something is not clear on the first sight, then it’s not obvious and it shouldn’t be considered. Looking at one camera angle is one thing but looking at 15, trying to find something that was potentially not even there, this was not the idea of the VAR principle. It should be clear and obvious.”

Iused2likebusts

There will then be some offside calls that are Millimetres from clear and obvious

PhlegmyMoses

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

There will then be some offside calls that are Millimetres from clear and obvious

Which is the case anyway if the tech isn't accurate enough to make the decision for you. You are just swapping an onfield potentially wrong decision for an off-field potentially wrong decision. The logical reaction to this, if the tech cannot make a definitive decision, is to not spend a large amount of time on it and to adhere to the clear and obvious part. Quick eyeball of the incidents, maybe with the first yellow line drawn as a visual aid, although you can leave them out if you want, and then get the onfield ref to make the decision.

Gbear

AdamD wrote: »

For the people against millimeter decisions - what do you actually want VAR to do? You can't just subjectively start letting stuff go, what amount of distance is 'too small'? It's a ridiculous position to hold, you're either offside or you're not.

Ideally, offsides in particular would be handled by a hawkeye type system, it would be instantaneous, accurate and no fuss would be caused.

Where possible, 3 or more cameras could triangulate the position of the player, the line of defence and the ball. Perhaps they could include some reflective strips on players' kits to aid in detection.

Just think about how low-impact goal line tech has been on the game. It'd be lovely to have that for offsides. Just remove them from the debate. They're a pain in the hole to deal with.

BullBlackNova

Does IFAB have a definition of what constitutes "clear and obvious" because, if not, then suggestions that millimetres don't matter, it should "just be clear and obvious" doesn't actually help as it still entirely open to interpretation.

I quite liked the idea that was mooted by some earlier in the season to time limit the review and make the ref use the screen. If you can identify the issue within an agreed timeframe, overturn or whatever. If you have to spend minutes looking at it, maybe just move on. It is no better as a system but it would eliminate the lengthy pauses in the games.

Of course, for incidents where refs are reviewing two or three potential infractions, you could also extend the time limit.

8-10

AdamD wrote: »

For the people against millimeter decisions - what do you actually want VAR to do? You can't just subjectively start letting stuff go, what amount of distance is 'too small'? It's a ridiculous position to hold, you're either offside or you're not.

I think the margin of error is 3cm so I'd say that's the distance but the league would need to confirm and certainly make that measurement clearer.

According to FIFA you are not offside if you are:

-Level with the second last
opponent

-Level with last two opponents

This concept of being 'level' was always talked about with offside previously but you never hear it now with VAR.

If you want to go to the mm level, and the technology accuracy has a margin of error, which it does, and you can see yourself the width of the lines they draw and pixelation of the picture, you cant make a determination at 100% confidence one way or the other in very close calls.

But do you know what? When it gets that close you don't need to make a determination one way or the other because FIFA already legislate for the concept of being level.

I fail to see how VAR can prove somebody being level and they haven't made a call yet to say a decision was level, they are only concentrating on it being on or off.

Another thing we always heard of before when the assistant was dealing with marginal decisions on whether to raise a flag or not is that the advantage should be with the attacking team. I agree with this as it's more in the spirit of the game not to punish the team who had the ball if you aren't sure that he's offside.

I would personally like the PL to define what the criteria is for a player being 'level'.

If the decision is an tight as the Wolves goal or Firmino v United and the distance between both lines they draw is within a margin of error that they publish, then decision should always go with the attacking player as being level.

8-10

Gbear wrote: »

Ideally, offsides in particular would be handled by a hawkeye type system, it would be instantaneous, accurate and no fuss would be caused.

Where possible, 3 or more cameras could triangulate the position of the player, the line of defence and the ball. Perhaps they could include some reflective strips on players' kits to aid in detection.

I think the most accurate way is to have the camera from above like SkyCam. If you're looking at the rectangular pitch perfectly top down like old 2D video games then you can draw perfectly straight lines. Still would have a margin of error but would take out the dotted lines they draw today up to the last body part which would be affected by perspective.

My overall opinion is to scrap VAR altogether. I hate it.

Guy:Incognito

8-10 wrote: »

My overall opinion is to scrap VAR altogether. I hate it.

So you prefer the likes of Lallanas assist the other day get given as a free out?

A ref or linesman looking at things in real time and making a final decision on the spot just isnt good enough a lot of the time. Theres too much going on.

OwaynOTT

I like Var, gives you and opportunity to post on boards during matches.

theoneeyedman

8-10 wrote: »

I think the most accurate way is to have the camera from above like SkyCam. If you're looking at the rectangular pitch perfectly top down like old 2D video games then you can draw perfectly straight lines. Still would have a margin of error but would take out the dotted lines they draw today up to the last body part which would be affected by perspective.

My overall opinion is to scrap VAR altogether. I hate it.

Every player in the EPL now, and at many lower levels, wear those GPS transponder yokes for analysis. Why not have them wearing a transponder, or linking in a standard transponder to the VAR system. It would measure the position of the players torso, and if you're offside it's picked up instantly. There will of course be a small margin of error if course, but a relatively cheap and cheerful solution I would have thought-fvckin club GAA teams use these now, I'm sure the billion dollar EPL could afford them!

Harry Palmr

Handy pee break for many I'd say.

.G.

BullBlackNova wrote: »

Does IFAB have a definition of what constitutes "clear and obvious" because, if not, then suggestions that millimetres don't matter, it should "just be clear and obvious" doesn't actually help as it still entirely open to interpretation.

I quite liked the idea that was mooted by some earlier in the season to time limit the review and make the ref use the screen. If you can identify the issue within an agreed timeframe, overturn or whatever. If you have to spend minutes looking at it, maybe just move on. It is no better as a system but it would eliminate the lengthy pauses in the games.

Of course, for incidents where refs are reviewing two or three potential infractions, you could also extend the time limit.

No they don't and they need to. FIFA, IFAB members, today are already pushing back against this IFAB chat, they want all offsides however marginal called offside. Its black and white for them you either are or you aren't.

They also want to look at a "clear daylight" change though but that just shifts advantage massively to the attacking team and will lead to very deep defensive lines.

Drumpot

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Handy pee break for many I'd say.

The games gonna end up like American football and probably reffed by robots if people keep ruining it by demanding perfection. Part of the entertainment of soccer are games where refs let the game flow and it’s intense action. You lose that with this stop start bullsh*t.

The original idea behind this technology was to take out major decisions like reds and obvious poorly decisions that cost teams big time. I don’t actually want the sport to be this sanitised, even if at times my team will be on the end of a marginal decision that’s sort of 50/50. If in doubt, decision to attacker, very simple.

I don’t think 30+ seconds wait for a decision to be cleared is feasible nor do I believe does it enhance the sport. Even have it whereby each team has 1 call per half (like tennis) where they get to question a decision. Otherwise unless it’s obvious (unlike some goals that looked 50:50) on one or two replays, the game goes on.

5starpool

I've said it multiple times, but for offsides VAR should be used for the off field ref to check if, using just replays it is obvious that a wrong decision was made on field. If it was tell the ref, let him change it, if not stick with the on field decision. None of this drawing lines nonsense that takes ages.

You'll never keep everyone happy, so go with the one that gets rid of the very bad decisions, and let the rest stay as the officials decide on the pitch. Given the difficulty in telling the exact instant the pass was played, and drawing the lines from there, it can't be exact anyway, so just use it to overrule obviously wrong ones.

There will be people saying that offside is an absolute, and it is, but there is no way currently available to be 100% sure anyway. Goalline tech is obviously great as it is absolute and instant, the rest should be using replays to see if something is obviously incorrect or not. It won't stop arguments, but it'll speed things up a bit.

8-10

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So you prefer the likes of Lallanas assist the other day get given as a free out?

Yes. I'd like to be like it was last season.

niallo27

5starpool wrote: »

I've said it multiple times, but for offsides VAR should be used for the off field ref to check if, using just replays it is obvious that a wrong decision was made on field. If it was tell the ref, let him change it, if not stick with the on field decision. None of this drawing lines nonsense that takes ages.

You'll never keep everyone happy, so go with the one that gets rid of the very bad decisions, and let the rest stay as the officials decide on the pitch. Given the difficulty in telling the exact instant the pass was played, and drawing the lines from there, it can't be exact anyway, so just use it to overrule obviously wrong ones.

There will be people saying that offside is an absolute, and it is, but there is no way currently available to be 100% sure anyway. Goalline tech is obviously great as it is absolute and instant, the rest should be using replays to see if something is obviously incorrect or not. It won't stop arguments, but it'll speed things up a bit.

How can you be sure goaline is absolute though, we just see a 3D picture, we dont see a live pic.

5starpool

niallo27 wrote: »

How can you be sure goaline is absolute though, we just see a 3D picture, we dont see a live pic.

Because as I understand it, there are sensors in the ball and in the goal area, it's not done by camera. Either way, it's not a best approximation.

niallo27

5starpool wrote: »

Because as I understand it, there are sensors in the ball and in the goal area, it's not done by camera. Either way, it's not a best approximation.

It uses 7 high speed cameras as far as I know and can be out by +- 5mm. I know it's easier to check because it's a fixed line but nobody ever questions it

Agent Coulson

This thread is going to break Boards if it hits 11k post.

Conor Coady played 87 hours & one minute of top-flight football in the 2010s without attempting a single shot at goal. This is the longest without a single shot of any outfield player this decade within the top five European leagues. Focused.

https://twitter.com/OptaJoe/status/1211675878608064513?s=20

Loafing Oaf

Agent Coulson wrote: »

This thread is going to break Boards if it hits 11k post.



https://twitter.com/OptaJoe/status/1211675878608064513?s=20

Shame we couldn't get him to declare for Ireland. He'd fit right in...

ERG89

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Shame we couldn't get him to declare for Ireland. He'd fit right in...

What? Isn't a defender, Shane Duffy our biggest goal threat now :pac:

Corholio

People will make up their own minds about various parts of this but one of the biggest takes from me is the vile and utter dirge of the press.

Bobby Madley and why he no longer referees.

https://therefereesword.blogspot.com/2019/12/time-to-move-on.html?m=1

POKERKING

Corholio wrote: »

People will make up their own minds about various parts of this but one of the biggest takes from me is the vile and utter dirge of the press.

Bobby Madley and why he no longer referees.

https://therefereesword.blogspot.com/2019/12/time-to-move-on.html?m=1

If all that is true he is desperately unlucky. I feel a tad sorry for him. Stitched up by a so called friend over a private joke.

gimli2112

Corholio wrote: »

People will make up their own minds about various parts of this but one of the biggest takes from me is the vile and utter dirge of the press.

Bobby Madley and why he no longer referees.

https://therefereesword.blogspot.com/2019/12/time-to-move-on.html?m=1

very good read, feel bad for the guy, obviously what he did was not very nice but in the context it was done and giving him the benefit of the doubt he's been treated very harshly. I'm mostly happy no dog was involved in the story.
Christ the media are awful

niallo27

Well the one good thing from VAR is the level of abuse from players and the crowd to refs will decrease massively.

theoneeyedman

10 games on BT, most on tomorrow, as Liverpool's 18 game victory tour/lap of honour begins in earnest

No real outstanding games, bigging up United Arsenal which is a shadow of the importance of yesteryear, but nonetheless a fixture of some interest. Test for spurs maybe facing a resurgent Southampton, but overall a hangover snooze fest in store.

Shanotheslayer

niallo27 wrote: »

Well the one good thing from VAR is the level of abuse from players and the crowd to refs will decrease massively.

The VAR is a wanker just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Harry Palmr

Dunno why the fixture list is so lob-sided, other than to hand the title to LiVARpool.

Wed 1 Jan 2020

Brighton 12:30 Chelsea
Burnley 12:30 Aston Villa
Newcastle 15:00 Leicester
Southampton 15:00 Tottenham
Watford 15:00 Wolves
Man City 17:30 Everton
Norwich 17:30 Crystal Palace
West Ham 17:30 Bournemouth
Arsenal 20:00 Man Utd

Thu 2 Jan 2020

Liverpool 20:00 Sheff Utd

Cork Boy 53

theoneeyedman wrote: »

10 games on BT, most on tomorrow, as Liverpool's 18 game victory tour/lap of honour begins in earnest

No real outstanding games, bigging up United Arsenal which is a shadow of the importance of yesteryear, but nonetheless a fixture of some interest. Test for spurs maybe facing a resurgent Southampton, but overall a hangover snooze fest in store.

Liverpool and West Ham both have 19 PL matches still to play this season. Also I think the Man City - Everton and Arsenal - Man Utd games will both be draws.

TitianGerm

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

Liverpool and West Ham both have 19 PL matches still to play this season. Also I think the Man City - Everton and Arsenal - Man Utd games will both be draws.

I think United will beat Arsenal today by at least 2.

bennyineire

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Dunno why the fixture list is so lob-sided, other than to hand the title to LiVARpool.

Wed 1 Jan 2020

Brighton 12:30 Chelsea
Burnley 12:30 Aston Villa
Newcastle 15:00 Leicester
Southampton 15:00 Tottenham
Watford 15:00 Wolves
Man City 17:30 Everton
Norwich 17:30 Crystal Palace
West Ham 17:30 Bournemouth
Arsenal 20:00 Man Utd

Thu 2 Jan 2020

Liverpool 20:00 Sheff Utd

Liverpool have played 2 more games this season in all competitions than any other Premier League club including a 10,000 KM round trip only a few weeks winning the World Club Championship. Liverpool have dropped 2 points from a possible 57.

But yeah sure the EPL are just handing the league to Liverpool. Happy new year ya ..... lol's

ERG89

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

Arsenal - Man Utd games will both be draws.

I was checking their form last night & Arsenal's last home win in the league was nearly 3 months ago on the 6th of October against Bournemouth. 3 defeats in the last 3 & fortunate to get a draw vs Southampton before that.

Potential Underachiever

It's lopsided not lobsided, I feel the need to educate people on that common mistake.

Iused2likebusts

Arsenal have only won 5 out of 20 PL games so far.

Loafing Oaf

Another marginal VAR offside call, this time against Villa

theoneeyedman

Villa goal ruled out for offside, Wesley off by half the width of a boot stud in the phase before the goal was scored..... Officials not helping themselves really.

CSF

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Another marginal VAR offside call, this time against Villa

Even looking at the lines they drew I couldn’t see them as anything other than on top of each other. Usually even for the ones we dispute, you can see one in front of the other.

Patser

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Another marginal VAR offside call, this time against Villa

Absolute nonsensical one. Goal ruled out because a mm of a.players boot who was walking away from goal, did not even go for the cross or interfere with play may just, just have been offside.

RasTa

What is this farce I'm seeing?

Skylinehead

We're (way) over 10k posts so new thread here:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=112135776#post112135776