Tesla Talk

_ned_

Respectfully disagree. We are at the start of a revolution in auto manufacture (ICE->BEV). Ability to quickly iterate is a huge advantage at the start of the S-curve. Vertical integration is an enormous advantage to rapid evolution of product design. The traditional manufacturers rely on long slow supply chains which hamper rapid change.
Sandy Munroe had some very interesting comments about this. He was stunned at how fast Tesla were iterating components within the same model a few weeks apart. He said he couldn't get a single Engineering Change in Ford in a year.
The battery is the most expensive component of a BEV, similar to the engine of an ICE car. If you're not making the engine or battery, then how can you innovate compared to your competition. Elon knows that whoever is king of battery manufacture will dominate EV manufacture. Not to mention static storage and other opportunities. They'll buy all the batteries they can get of Panasonic/CATL/LG because the entire EV market is battery-constrained. But they are building the machines and factories that will unleash a staggering increase (100x) in battery production. I believe that will give them an incredible advantage over someone who buys a pack from a 3rd party supplier.

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

No but I thought Elon's goal was to get everyone into ev ?:D

Yeah thats a fair enough reason for him to do it i suppose

unkel

_ned_ wrote: »

they are building the machines and factories that will unleash a staggering increase (100x) in battery production. I believe that will give them an incredible advantage over someone who buys a pack from a 3rd party supplier.

Not to mention those 3rd party battery suppliers are not increasing their production capacity anywhere near enough to be able to cope with demand over the next decade

Thierry12

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Meh, Porsche have 1 car competing with Tesla at the higher (highest) end.

At the lower end, Nothing VW have even comes close to Tesla. In fact nothing they have is even competing with Tesla...

Don't agree

ID3 is the car Tesla promised 5 years ago, its going to be a huge seller

€35,000, 350km range, 35 min to 80% charge

Instead we got something for €50,000 with even less range

Don't get me started on its other product

A 10 year old dated Model S

Anyone buying that brand new over a Porsche is mad

AndyBoBandy

The ID.3 has been out for less than 3 weeks, the Model 3 has been out for over 3 years, so let’s see how the ID.3 fares with range over a winter.

And I’ll comfortably do a lot more than 350km in my 50kWh Model 3 if I’m just driving locally....

And so what if the Model S is 10 years old? It still looks like one of the most futuristic cars out there.... and it constantly receives updates that make it even better.... does the Porsche do that? Or is the same 10 years later as the day it left the showroom?

drumm23

Model Y vs id4 will be a good battle

but ultimately the VW dealer network is a massive asset for them (particularly in Ireland where there's just the one, pretty poor, Tesla outlet)

I often think of my Mum who has had maybe 30 years of VWs - from Golf to Passat to Tiguan back to Golf .... she is not going to buy a Model Y without a local dealer who will take her Golf against it ... 100% that her next car will be an id3 or id4 ... and there are tens of thousands just like her .... This forum is not a representation of the market - we are, whether we like it or not, NERDS

AndyBoBandy

I don’t think Tesla will be targeting buyers like your mother. I’d say they’re firmly after the newer more tech savvy buyer, and thats who they are targeting.

Honestly, buying a Tesla was a breath of fresh air compared to how it works in a ‘normal’ dealership. I don’t need to live close to the service centre as in most cases the service will come to me..

I also don’t believe Tesla’s MO is to become the dominant player in the EV world. They are more than happy to let everyone else have their fair share of the market, and are actively encouraging them to get off their arses and get with the program of bringing EV’s to the masses. They know they can’t and won’t do it alone. They’ll be quite happy to sit in the mid to premium range of the EV market, and compete there.

ted1

Thierry12 wrote: »

Don't agree

ID3 is the car Tesla promised 5 years ago, its going to be a huge seller

€35,000, 350km range, 35 min to 80% charge

Instead we got something for €50,000 with even less range

Don't get me started on its other product

A 10 year old dated Model S

Anyone buying that brand new over a Porsche is mad

He never stated 35k euro

Kramer

ted1 wrote: »

He never stated 35k euro

Good job - the cheapest Model 3 here is approx. €59k, before taxpayer funded grants :P.

liamog

drumm23 wrote: »

Model Y vs id4 will be a good battle

The Q4 e-Tron will be the pitched battle against the Model Y, Volkswagen and Tesla are competing in different segments of the market, as reflected by the starting prices.

Lumen

Kramer wrote: »

Good job - the cheapest Model 3 here is approx. €59k, before taxpayer funded grants :P.

But after VRT, VAT and customs duties. US prices are always quoted before sales taxes which vary state to state, I think.

EVs in Ireland are not net subsidized by the taxpayer. They are just a bit less hammered than ICE cars.

Thierry12

Lumen wrote: »

But after VRT, VAT and customs duties. US prices are always quoted before sales taxes which vary state to state, I think.

EVs in Ireland are not net subsidized by the taxpayer. They are just a bit less hammered than ICE cars.

Its 10k less in the government coffers

Whatever fancy way you wanna put it, its subsidized by us taxpayers

Its should be done away with too, especially with Covid and wrecked economy we have now

Subside cars under €40,000 only, that will get rid of those rip off prices we have from Tesla, Hyundai, Nissan etc

Anyone that can afford a brand new Tesla doesn't need a government subsidy anyway

Agree on who said Tesla compete with Audi

Its Nissan, Hyundai etc that screwed from ID3 and ID4

Whos gonna buy a Nissan Leaf or Ioniq for the same price as an ID3 :-)

Lumen

Thierry12 wrote: »

Its 10k less in the government coffers

Whatever fancy way you wanna put it, its subsidized by us taxpayers

It wasn't 10k less in my case, because I would otherwise have bought a cheap used car and spent the rest on coke and hookers, neither of which are taxed in Ireland.

ELM327

Thierry12 wrote: »

Its 10k less in the government coffers

Whatever fancy way you wanna put it, its subsidized by us taxpayers

Its should be done away with too, especially with Covid and wrecked economy we have now

Subside cars under €40,000 only, that will get rid of those rip off prices we have from Tesla, Hyundai, Nissan etc

Anyone that can afford a brand new Tesla doesn't need a government subsidy anyway

Agree on who said Tesla compete with Audi

Its Nissan, Hyundai etc that screwed from ID3 and ID4

Whos gonna buy a Nissan Leaf or Ioniq for the same price as an ID3 :-)

A subsidy is not the same as a tax reduction. It actually costs the taxpayers a lot less to give a tax reduction as opposed to a rebate.


Ever heard of trickle down economics? Giving the grant off Teslas (or Etron, Ipace etc) new makes them more affordable to buy used at 3-5 years. If you don't give the grant, then the second owner may buy a fossil car as the EV car is too expensive still due to higher MSRP.

slave1

Thierry12 wrote: »

Its 10k less in the government coffers

Whatever fancy way you wanna put it, its subsidized by us taxpayers

Its should be done away with too, especially with Covid and wrecked economy we have now

Subside cars under €40,000 only, that will get rid of those rip off prices we have from Tesla, Hyundai, Nissan etc

Anyone that can afford a brand new Tesla doesn't need a government subsidy anyway

Agree on who said Tesla compete with Audi

Its Nissan, Hyundai etc that screwed from ID3 and ID4

Whos gonna buy a Nissan Leaf or Ioniq for the same price as an ID3 :-)

And with such a negativity tone in these posts you make your way to my ignore list

KCross

slave1 wrote: »

And with such a negativity tone in these posts you make your way to my ignore list

You probably have about 5 "different" thierry's on ignore at this stage so!

Kramer

KCross wrote: »

You probably have about 5 "different" thierry's on ignore at this stage so!

I didn't even think Thierry's post was that negative - I've often posted similar myself :eek:.
I'd agree it's crazy subsiding €100k cars to the tune of €10k. Manufacturers are creaming off these subsidies.
OK, argue EVs need to be made affordable to help with climate change etc., but throwing €10k subsidies to manufacturers isn't a good use of my tax IMO.

No, PHEVs are where it's at .

Smck1983

The other way to look at it is that it is saving them longer term in not reaching emissions targets? Losing 10K in government coffers now to save >10K in CO2 fines down the road?

Kramer wrote: »

I didn't even think Thierry's post was that negative - I've often posted similar myself :eek:.
I'd agree it's crazy subsiding €100k cars to the tune of €10k. Manufacturers are creaming off these subsidies.
OK, argue EVs need to be made affordable to help with climate change etc., but throwing €10k subsidies to manufacturers isn't a good use of my tax IMO.

No, PHEVs are where it's at .

garo

If that 10k helps someone choose a brand new 100k Model S over some 100k ICE car then that 10k is worth it. No?

unkel

In my book, yes. That 100k Model S still brings in a lot of VRT and VAT - probably more than the 60k BMW 520d tractor the buyer would have bought otherwise. It will of course bring 95% less into the state's coffers when it comes to fueling it over its life, but that's for a different discussion

That said, I agree with Kramer that the outright subsidy is an inefficient way of spending tax payer's money, it should be abolished asap. Little things that cost next to nothing will have more of an impact and give more bragging rights in the pub. Like free motor tax, free nationwide tolls, free nationwide parking, etc.

Thierry12

slave1 wrote: »

And with such a negativity tone in these posts you make your way to my ignore list

Its my thread buddy ;-)

unkel

Thierry12 wrote: »

Its my thread buddy ;-)

This thread is not yours. It was started by a certain Mike.

Not Thierry.



Oh wait...

How many accounts have you used on boards since you joined, which was only in recent times? :rolleyes:

Thierry12

unkel wrote: »

This thread is not yours. It was started by a certain Mike.

Not Thierry.



Oh wait...

How many accounts have you used on boards since you joined, which was only in recent times? :rolleyes:

2 moderators ganging up, nice

One after the other

People feel strong in groups I guess

garo

As a non-mod could I ask what you meant by "Its my thread buddy ;-)"?

unkel

You're bringing the attention onto yourself and your multiple user names with that sort of reference that it's your thread (while anyone can see it was started by a different user name). I am not a moderator in this forum BTW and neither is slave1.

Thierry12

Thierry12 wrote: »

Its 10k less in the government coffers

Whatever fancy way you wanna put it, its subsidized by us taxpayers

Its should be done away with too, especially with Covid and wrecked economy we have now

Subside cars under €40,000 only, that will get rid of those rip off prices we have from Tesla, Hyundai, Nissan etc

Anyone that can afford a brand new Tesla doesn't need a government subsidy anyway

Agree on who said Tesla compete with Audi

Its Nissan, Hyundai etc that screwed from ID3 and ID4

Whos gonna buy a Nissan Leaf or Ioniq for the same price as an ID3 :-)

You're correct, I don't know why there's negativity towards your comment. the car companies are milking the taxpayer. I'd rather see my income tax cut and USC abolished, most of us pay huge income tax in this country especially in the higher bracket, if we had 500-600 a month more we could spend it much more effectively rather than it be forcibly taken without the chance to put it back to the economy. We need to stand up to this extortion.

If subsidies are cut for electric cars then EV makers will be forced to make electric cars at a higher cost to them, big deal they can afford it. How much profit is ever enough for these companies ?

Subsidising a 100K Tesla is a joke in reality, A model 3 not so much why ? well not just because I'm thinking of buying one it's in the price range that means it's more affordable to a lot more people and without the subsidy it would push it beyond the limit for most People I would say, same for the cheaper cars.

But the car companies will moan as they've done for years claiming the can't cut emissions so the French and Germans supported them and the E.U in general with the Farce that was the NEDC test.

They can do it but like all companies they will not make as much profit.

Remove EV subsidies and Eliminate USC and reduce income tax and I'd have more money to spend and I'd be a happy Man.

liamog

To address some recent posts in the thread

1. Nobody owns a thread, the only person who gets a say in what's acceptable is the forum moderator and site admins, if you don't like it, report it
2. When a moderator from another area of boards posts in thread, they are held to the same standard, i.e. they are treated as a standard poster, we do not expect any more, or any less of them
3. The boards principle of attack the post not the poster applies, Slave1's negativity comments and ignore list re the poster do not appear to be following the principle

I'm not handing out any sanctions at this point, but can everyone keep the conversation above the level of playground bickering.

drumm23

Deleted User wrote: »

Remove EV subsidies and Eliminate USC and reduce income tax and I'd have more money to spend and I'd be a happy Man.

just an FYi that USC brought in about €4 billion in 2019 ... that's a lot of cars

drumm23

drumm23 wrote: »

just an FYi that USC brought in about €4 billion in 2019 ... that's a lot of cars

It's extortion that's what it is, the taxpayer is the Governments gravy train.

That 4 Billion could be used by People to spend directly back to the economy, which they then get extorted for 23% VAT so they will get money back and the working man has more income.

garo

Not a politics thread.