Who Are The People Buying Sex This Way?

ILoveYourVibes

Are there people buying sex who hate women...probably.

In fact there are probably people buying sex who should not be allowed buy sex or anywhere near a woman.

I mean they should be legit blanket banned but there you go.

Maybe they do to these places because a normal prostitute would say no. I don't know.

I mean there is always one gob****e banned from everywhere.

Decriminalize it...amnesty for the women...like let them stay in Ireland etc. ( I will prolly get lynched for that)

ILoveYourVibes

You know what would be funny about a campaign to legalize prostitution.

FG and FF wouldn't be able to figure out if the average white catholic male voter was totally for it or totally against it.

cgcsb

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You know what would be funny about a campaign to legalize prostitution.

FG and FF wouldn't be able to figure out if the average white catholic male voter was totally for it or totally against it.

The grassroots conversation would be fun alright. In parts of the country, FF canvassers couldn't even find the vocabulary to discuss SSM 4 years ago.

ILoveYourVibes

cgcsb wrote: »

The grassroots conversation would be fun alright. In parts of the country, FF canvassers couldn't even find the vocabulary to discuss SSM 4 years ago.

Imagine trying to get the polling info on it. :pac:

I reckon ireland would be ok with legalizing it.

Deebles McBeebles

15% vote yes
25% vote no
60% undecided/morto

Zorya

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I hope she or you didn't think I was telling her off. I don't mean it like that at all.

But there is a myth that most human trafficking is done by men. Its not its done by women. Sometimes even family members.

.

Yeah you did, you agreed with soup about my middle class arrogance and ego. the fact is I lived in a house with no toilet until I was 12 and the first 10 years of raising my kids I had no electricity and no toilet again! Assumptions, assumptions. And if you had bothered to read the thread or indeed if any of the johnny come latelys who are clutching their pearls about prostitutes freedom had read the thread you would know I covered the issue of women's involvement in the slavery waaaaay back, nor do I want to stop anyone getting their hole in a respectable manner. The amount of false equivalences in this thread.

I'm grateful for the support from others. No matter what arguments could possibly be put here I would never be convinced that there is not an exceedingly large amount of disgusting horror going on in this area and unfortunately for the liberal argument decriminalisation is NOT working.

ILoveYourVibes

cgcsb wrote: »

Some do, organise and run their own business, hand pick their clients etc.

I think with the internet being what it is, I do wonder why brothels, especially flat rate brothels, exist. Surely prostitutes can arrange their own meet ups at their leisure in this day and age? Or maybe there's something of a hub affect that still has it's appeal.

I was talking to a friend recently about the decline of the gay sauna, which is probably the closest you'll get to a gay version of a brothel. In the 80s Dublin was NOTORIOUS across Europe for this kind of establishment. At one point there were more gay saunas in Dublin than in London. There is now only one such establishment (albeit a 5 floor maze of many themes of debauchery). The decline is largely chalked up to the internet. Still there is a difference in experience and out come, swiping left is a very different experience compared to making your choice in person.

Ireland had a gay sauna in the 80s. :pac: ??

ohnonotgmail

cgcsb wrote: »

Some do, organise and run their own business, hand pick their clients etc.

I think with the internet being what it is, I do wonder why brothels, especially flat rate brothels, exist. Surely prostitutes can arrange their own meet ups at their leisure in this day and age? Or maybe there's something of a hub affect that still has it's appeal.

I was talking to a friend recently about the decline of the gay sauna, which is probably the closest you'll get to a gay version of a brothel. In the 80s Dublin was NOTORIOUS across Europe for this kind of establishment. At one point there were more gay saunas in Dublin than in London. There is now only one such establishment (albeit a 5 floor maze of many themes of debauchery). The decline is largely chalked up to the internet. Still there is a difference in experience and out come, swiping left is a very different experience compared to making your choice in person.

Absolutely nothing like a brothel.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Ireland had a gay sauna in the 80s. :pac: ??

Defintely the very early 90's and it wasnt new then.

Gimme A Pound

Zorya wrote: »

The amount of false equivalences in this thread.

The mark of one with no argument.

And it's nonsense to compare a woman or man with a supportive family and friends circle, in comfortable familiar surroundings, with an education, savings, in good health, no addiction issues, who choose to sell sexual services (wouldn't be for me, and what do they do if they want to change career? But otherwise it doesn't seem like a bad life at all)... to those who are appallingly poor, uneducated, and have to depend on a pimp.

A stupid and insulting comparison.

Sorry about that

Day Lewin wrote: »

There are trafficked workers in many trades, plenty in Dublin too: yet I see very little moral outrage about that.

Yes, many of the workers at Pussy Club ARE German or at least European.

Why assume that they are enslaved? any more than the croupiers at a casino or workers on a building site or cockle pickers or mushroom growers, hotel staff or office cleaners??

What's so degrading about providing a sexual service? I don't see it, I genuinely don't.
Men need this, and they pay good money: why not make use of that financial opportunity?
(Rationally, not some ancient sentimental reason.)

PS And if my daughter chose to, I'd respect her choice.

Men really don't need this. They want it. Yes they need sex, but paying for it it different. When you're paying, you're the boss, and nobody wants another person to be the boss of their body- it robs a person of autonomy. To suggest that men need this, suggests an entitlement, although I'm sure you weren't driving at that.

Mrsmum

I can see how decriminalization would benefit prostitutes who have some agency choosing it as a job and also of course the punters but how does it do anything to stop trafficking ? Even after decriminalization, why would traffickers not continue to 'source' girls and ensure they work in the now decriminalized trade and how would decriminalization reveal anything to the punter as to the 'choices' of the working girl ?

From https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...ex-traffickers - it states prostitution in Spain was decriminalised in 1995. Yet "Now the Spanish government estimates that up to 90% of women working in prostitution could be victims of trafficking or under the control of a third party – such as a pimp – who is profiting from them. Between 2012-2016, security forces in Spain rescued 5,695 people from slavery but acknowledge that thousands more remain under the control of criminals.

Doesn't seem to be working there, does it ?

ILoveYourVibes

Mrsmum wrote: »

I can see how decriminalization would benefit prostitutes who have some agency choosing it as a job and also of course the punters but how does it do anything to stop trafficking ? Even after decriminalization, why would traffickers not continue to 'source' girls and ensure they work in the now decriminalized trade and how would decriminalization reveal anything to the punter as to the 'choices' of the working girl ?

From https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...ex-traffickers - it states prostitution was decriminalised in 1995. Yet "Now the Spanish government estimates that up to 90% of women working in prostitution could be victims of trafficking or under the control of a third party – such as a pimp – who is profiting from them. Between 2012-2016, security forces in Spain rescued 5,695 people from slavery but acknowledge that thousands more remain under the control of criminals.

Doesn't seem to be working there, does it ?

Well firstly its a separate debate as to whether you legalize prostitution or not. There are women who work consensually. We have all acknowledged this.They don't deserve to be punished because someone else is doing something evil


Criminalizing it isn't working either. Maybe the way to stop it has nothing to do with the legal situation a all because NOTHING on that end has ever worked at any time in history. Maybe its more to do with alleviating poverty like i said.

Your link is not working btw.

ILoveYourVibes

Jerry Banana wrote: »

If someone chooses to have sex in exchange for money they do not lose autonomy of their body.

Here here.

ohnonotgmail

Mrsmum wrote: »

I can see how decriminalization would benefit prostitutes who have some agency choosing it as a job and also of course the punters but how does it do anything to stop trafficking ? Even after decriminalization, why would traffickers not continue to 'source' girls and ensure they work in the now decriminalized trade and how would decriminalization reveal anything to the punter as to the 'choices' of the working girl ?

From https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...ex-traffickers - it states prostitution in Spain was decriminalised in 1995. Yet "Now the Spanish government estimates that up to 90% of women working in prostitution could be victims of trafficking or under the control of a third party – such as a pimp – who is profiting from them. Between 2012-2016, security forces in Spain rescued 5,695 people from slavery but acknowledge that thousands more remain under the control of criminals.

Doesn't seem to be working there, does it ?

so what do you propose?

Zorya

Mrsmum wrote: »

I can see how decriminalization would benefit prostitutes who have some agency choosing it as a job and also of course the punters but how does it do anything to stop trafficking ? Even after decriminalization, why would traffickers not continue to 'source' girls and ensure they work in the now decriminalized trade and how would decriminalization reveal anything to the punter as to the 'choices' of the working girl ?

From https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...ex-traffickers - it states prostitution was decriminalised in 1995. Yet "Now the Spanish government estimates that up to 90% of women working in prostitution could be victims of trafficking or under the control of a third party – such as a pimp – who is profiting from them. Between 2012-2016, security forces in Spain rescued 5,695 people from slavery but acknowledge that thousands more remain under the control of criminals.

Doesn't seem to be working there, does it ?

That is it. Decriminalisation drives down the price, and provides secure facilities for trafficking. Police don't go in. Competition from slaves who have no say in what they are willing to do drives the trade to the lowest common denominators.

People who advocate for decriminalisation would want to do some proper research. And people in general would want to wise up about the happy hooker myth. The stories of what goes on are dreadful. Women servicing 40 clients a day up to delivery of their baby. Because there is a demand for novelty etc.

ILoveYourVibes

Zorya wrote: »

That is it. Decriminalisation drives down the price, and provides secure facilities for trafficking. Police don't go in. Competition from slaves who have no say in what they are willing to do drives the trade to the lowest common denominators.

People who advocate for decriminalisation would want to do some proper research. And people in general would want to wise up about the happy hooker myth. The stories of what goes on are dreadful. Women servicing 40 clients a day up to delivery of their baby. Because there is a demand for novelty etc.

Why should other prostitutes who do it willingly suffer though?

Zorya

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Why should other prostitutes who do it willingly suffer though?

I don't want them to suffer.
I don't want the slaves to suffer either.
Statistically it appears there are more slaves.

Mrsmum

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Well firstly its a separate debate as to whether you legalize prostitution or not. There are women who work consensually. We have all acknowledged this.They don't deserve to be punished because someone else is doing something evil


Criminalizing it isn't working either. Maybe the way to stop it has nothing to do with the legal situation a all because NOTHING on that end has ever worked at any time in history. Maybe its more to do with alleviating poverty like i said.

Your link is not working btw.

Re the link, it's one of many from Zorya's first post on this thread.

ILoveYourVibes

Zorya wrote: »

People who advocate for decriminalisation would want to do some proper research. And people in general would want to wise up about the happy hooker myth. The stories of what goes on are dreadful. Women servicing 40 clients a day up to delivery of their baby. Because there is a demand for novelty etc.

You are kind of using doublethink here.

Lux23

Men. A small percentage of all men, but I am pretty sure most that buy sex are men.

ILoveYourVibes

Mrsmum wrote: »

Re the link, it's one of many from Zorya's first post on this thread.

Prostitution is not regulated at all in spain though.

ohnonotgmail

Mrsmum wrote: »

I can see how decriminalization would benefit prostitutes who have some agency choosing it as a job and also of course the punters but how does it do anything to stop trafficking ? Even after decriminalization, why would traffickers not continue to 'source' girls and ensure they work in the now decriminalized trade and how would decriminalization reveal anything to the punter as to the 'choices' of the working girl ?

From https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...ex-traffickers - it states prostitution in Spain was decriminalised in 1995. Yet "Now the Spanish government estimates that up to 90% of women working in prostitution could be victims of trafficking or under the control of a third party – such as a pimp – who is profiting from them. Between 2012-2016, security forces in Spain rescued 5,695 people from slavery but acknowledge that thousands more remain under the control of criminals.

Doesn't seem to be working there, does it ?

your guardian link does not work btw

ILoveYourVibes

Lux23 wrote: »

Men. A small percentage of all men, but I am pretty sure most that buy sex are men.

Most men in Germany have bought sex. 75%.

Der Stier

.Charlo wrote: »

I read somewhere recently scientists were teaching monkeys the concept of money, they first started exchanging money for food, not long after that they were paying female monkeys for sex.

I think that might have been an episode of "Monkey news" with Karl Pilkington

Mrsmum

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so what do you propose?

I would say as a first step society should be more open and less defensive to lots of conversations like this and call a spade a spade that if one is using the services of a prostitute, she may very likely have been trafficked and therefore imo the sex you are having with her is actually rape. How about getting that message out there as a basic truth.

ILoveYourVibes

Zorya wrote: »

I don't want them to suffer.
I don't want the slaves to suffer either.
Statistically it appears there are more slaves.

You are going to put them further in danger.

Now when they are free they have a criminal record.

ohnonotgmail

Mrsmum wrote: »

I would say as a first step society should be more open and less defensive to lots of conversations like this and call a spade a spade that if one is using the services of a prostitute, she may very likely have been trafficked and therefore imo the sex you are having with her is actually rape. How about getting that message out there as a basic truth.

great but how does that solve the problem of women being trafficked? Becase that is what the problem is. Women selling their bodies willingly should not be an issue. The issue only arises when they are doing it unwillingly.

Gimme A Pound

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You are kind of using doublethink here.

How is she using doublethink?

If anyone's doing that, it's you. Contradicting yourself all over the place, disregarding the awful findings for "but what about"? Bloody hell, some right cognitive dissonance when it comes to needing to look sexually liberated.

ILoveYourVibes

Mrsmum wrote: »

I would say as a first step society should be more open and less defensive to lots of conversations like this and call a spade a spade that if one is using the services of a prostitute, she may very likely have been trafficked and therefore imo the sex you are having with her is actually rape. How about getting that message out there as a basic truth.

IF she is trafficked. Then i have no issue with this.

ILoveYourVibes

Jamari Lemon Shrimp wrote: »

How is she using doublethink?

If anyone's doing that, it's you. Contradicting yourself all over the place, disregarding the awful findings for "but what about"? Bloody hell, some right cognitive dissonance when it comes to needing to look sexually liberated.

She believes most prostitutes are doing it freely yet most are slaves. She believes decriminalization will help prostitutes but increase them.

What she is saying makes no sense.

Also the line between these women is not so clear as you think. They often work in the same places.

Mrsmum

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

great but how does that solve the problem of women being trafficked? Becase that is what the problem is. Women selling their bodies willingly should not be an issue. The issue only arises when they are doing it unwillingly.

It's hardly like I have a new sudden answer that nobody thought of before but it's just over and over you hear people say decriminalization is the answer and I don't see how it is.
I don't know why people keep seemingly defending willing prostitutes as if they are being attacked. They are not.

Zorya

Jamari Lemon Shrimp wrote: »

How is she using doublethink?

If anyone's doing that, it's you. Contradicting yourself all over the place, disregarding the awful findings for "but what about"? Bloody hell, some right cognitive dissonance when it comes to needing to look sexually liberated.

Thanks. I was trying to phrase that sentiment coherently but gave up. It's a new kind of virtue signalling. Yes I know we live among sex slaves but I am cool with it cos sex. Haha

ILoveYourVibes

Jamari Lemon Shrimp wrote: »

How is she using doublethink?

If anyone's doing that, it's you. Contradicting yourself all over the place, disregarding the awful findings for "but what about"? Bloody hell, some right cognitive dissonance when it comes to needing to look sexually liberated.

I have not contradicted myself once.
I just know more about the topic.
The op seems to be pushing an agenda of decriminalizing. She hasn't spoken once of helping these women alleviating poverty and any time i bring it up i am told nothing to do with the debate.

What about granting asylum to trafficked women? Give them citizenship? Immunity from prosecution?

Most trafficked women don't exactly object. They are doing it because where they come from is so bad.

ILoveYourVibes

Zorya wrote: »

Thanks. I was trying to phrase that sentiment coherently but gave up. It's a new kind of virtue signalling. Yes I know we live among sex slaves but I am cool with it cos sex. Haha

You don't live among sex slaves. There were 179 people trafficked in Ireland in 2016. That's an OVER estimation. And most of those were not sexual trafficking.

Zorya

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You don't live among sex slaves. There were 179 people trafficked in Ireland in 2016. That's an OVER estimation. And most of those were not sexual trafficking.

In Europe I do. It has the biggest sex trafficking rate in the world.

By the way google prostitution and traumatic brain injury. Big numbers coming out of prostitution have TBI. Some surveys find 75% of prostitutes have been raped. It's a very ugly industry.

Mrsmum

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I have not contradicted myself once.
I just know more about the topic.
The op seems to be pushing an agenda of decriminalizing. She hasn't spoken once of helping these women alleviating poverty and any time i bring it up i am told nothing to do with the debate.

What about granting asylum to trafficked women? Give them citizenship? Immunity from prosecution?

Most trafficked women don't exactly object. They are doing it because where they come from is so bad.

No she isn't.

Zorya

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

She believes most prostitutes are doing it freely yet most are slaves. She believes decriminalization will help prostitutes but increase them.

What she is saying makes no sense.

Also the line between these women is not so clear as you think. They often work in the same places.

Uhhhhhhhhh....don't know what you are reading.

ILoveYourVibes

Zorya wrote: »

Some surveys find 75% of prostitutes have been raped.

Why do you think they don't report it?

ILoveYourVibes

Zorya wrote: »

Uhhhhhhhhh....don't know what you are reading.

Mrsmum wrote: »

I don't know why people keep seemingly defending willing prostitutes as if they are being attacked. They are not.

How would you answer to these women then?

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irish-sex-workers-organisation-slams-13584018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPdeto6ZFp8


I am certainly not virtue signalling.
I don't know that i trust prostitutes. Its a profession that caters for a lots of married men and requires a level of deceit etc.

But the only way you can recognize the rights of sex workers is to decriminalize them.

ILoveYourVibes

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

great but how does that solve the problem of women being trafficked? Becase that is what the problem is. Women selling their bodies willingly should not be an issue. The issue only arises when they are doing it unwillingly.

Where is the line between willingly and unwillingly?

That is also a problem. Its not so clear.

The conditions in these places might be bad. But a lot of women don't even want to go back to their own countries.

No they are not willingly there. But they are not willingly leaving either.

ohnonotgmail

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Where is the line between willingly and unwillingly?

That is also a problem. Its not so clear.

The conditions in these places might be bad. But a lot of women don't even want to go back to their own countries.

No they are not willingly there. But they are not willingly leaving either.

By willingly i mean are they being coerced by others.

ILoveYourVibes

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

By willingly i mean are they being coerced by others.

Wait you mean unwillingly???

What if they are coerced by circumstance? I think that counts too.

ohnonotgmail

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Wait you mean unwillingly???

What if they are coerced by circumstance? I think that counts too.

we are all coerced by circumstances into doing things we dont want to do.

Gimme A Pound

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I have not contradicted myself once.
I just know more about the topic.
The op seems to be pushing an agenda of decriminalizing. She hasn't spoken once of helping these women alleviating poverty and any time i bring it up i am told nothing to do with the debate.

What about granting asylum to trafficked women? Give them citizenship? Immunity from prosecution?

Most trafficked women don't exactly object. They are doing it because where they come from is so bad.

I just don't get how "pushing an agenda" is more noteworthy than the injuries and exhaustion Zorya posted about.

She absolutely is concerned about their poverty - because she knows that that is what's being exploited.

You on the other hand talk about the poverty and desperation, then hop over to "plenty of people are happy being prostitutes" mode. That's why I said you're using doublethink.

This is about the ones in a sorry situation, not a woman in Chelsea running her own escort service.

ILoveYourVibes

Anyhow I will probably stop posting in this thread for today.

Sorry if i came off as harsh or mean to anyone ...Zorya Mrs mom gimmie a pound gmail and anyone else. You actually seem like really nice people.

I find it interesting and stimulating.

I might come back tomorrow or sometimes and you can teach me some more

Have a lovely weekend.

Mrsmum

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

How would you answer to these women then?

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irish-sex-workers-organisation-slams-13584018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPdeto6ZFp8


I am certainly not virtue signalling.
I don't know that i trust prostitutes. Its a profession that caters for a lots of married men and requires a level of deceit etc.

But the only way you can recognize the rights of sex workers is to decriminalize them.

Look prostitution is a huge subject and if you read my previous posts you would see I have already said I can see how decriminalization would benefit willing prostitutes and by that I mean total agency over her own decisions but how are you not understanding this thread is not about them.

Deebles McBeebles

Jamari Lemon Shrimp wrote: »

This is about the ones in a sorry situation, not a woman in Chelsea running her own escort service.

How do you stop that (or at least cut it way down) without legalisation though?
I mean, in a perfect world there would be no prostitution but that's not happening.

Gimme A Pound

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

we are all coerced by circumstances into doing things we dont want to do.

I suppose we are - most of us anyway, but that doesn't say or mitigate anything because obviously there's a spectrum in terms of how extreme the coercion is/what the situation is.

Gimme A Pound

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

How do you stop that (or at least cut it way down) without legalisation though?
I mean, in a perfect world there would be no prostitution but that's not happening.

Oh I'm not arguing for or against legalisation/decriminalisation. I'd have leaned towards same before but not sure now, however I don't agree with criminalisation of it either

I'm just arguing against the pigheaded denial of the problems for women in poverty/with addictions.

I think in a perfect world there would be sexual services actually - but not having to be resorted to for income by people at rock bottom with no other option, and vulnerability to dangerous folk.

Pero_Bueno

just look at the porn available on regular sites like p0rn hub etc.
Seems a lot of it is degrading stuff like 5 guys coming all over one girl , this has to effect how guys think, very worrying with new generations growing up on this stuff.