Self service tills and job losses

Kermit.de.frog

As a customer the proliferation of these in supermarkets is great. It's fast, easy to use.

As a worker maybe not so much.

The attraction for stores is not only customer convenience but cutting staff overheads simultaneously.

A local small supermarket recently went all in on self service tills in recent months and now have pretty much no till workers.

The change was dramatic like overnight a number of till workers were simply laid off.

But the effect is even more dramatic in my local Tesco - about 10 tills and all but one with a till worker (at the busiest time) - and one other person overseeing multiple self service tills.

There has been a lot said about technology effecting jobs but this is probably the most visible sign of it I have seen so far.

One wonders what the people who had those jobs or would have had them are going to do.

Surprised more has not been said about it in relation to job losses which across the country must be a lot, many thousands?

Hopefully these workers can train up and get other jobs.

jester77

On the other side, lots of jobs created designing the system, writing the software, developing the hardware, installing it, maintaining it and running it.

Wichita Lineman

jester77 wrote: »

On the other side, lots of jobs created designing the system, writing the software, developing the hardware, installing it, maintaining it and running it.

I seriously doubt that any of the laid off workers are now in any of those jobs you mention.

The Davestator

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

As a customer the proliferation of these in supermarkets is great. It's fast, easy to use.

As a worker maybe not so much.

The attraction for stores is not only customer convenience but cutting staff overheads simultaneously.

A local small supermarket recently went all in on self service tills in recent months and now have pretty much no till workers.

The change was dramatic like overnight a number of till workers were simply laid off.

But the effect is even more dramatic in my local Tesco - about 10 tills and all but one with a till worker (at the busiest time) - and one other person overseeing multiple self service tills.

There has been a lot said about technology effecting jobs but this is probably the most visible sign of it I have seen so far.

One wonders what the people who had those jobs or would have had them are going to do.

Surprised more has not been said about it in relation to job losses which across the country must be a lot, many thousands?

Hopefully these workers can train up and get other jobs.

You think that's bad - think of all the bank teller jobs lost with the introduction of ATM's.:rolleyes:

Silly argument born out of a silly Facebook post doing the rounds

heebusjeebus

Plenty of jobs around that people can move into, with a bit of training. Healthcare is a big one that will see very little automation.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/26/jobs-future-automation-robots-skills-creative-health

Automation could also produce new roles that we don't initially see coming.

kneemos

Plenty of alternative work available at the moment.

Kermit.de.frog

The Davestator wrote: »

You think that's bad - think of all the bank teller jobs lost with the introduction of ATM's.:rolleyes:

Silly argument born out of a silly Facebook post doing the rounds

I'm not arguing against it.

I just hope the people who would have had those jobs can get jobs elsewhere.

We need to prepare for a world where a lot of people simply won't have jobs to get.

3DataModem

There are lots of jobs that are absolutely going to go the same way pretty quickly in the forseeable;

- any job driving a vehicle (truck, delivery, taxi)... once self-driving cars hit a tipping point globally owning a car will be a super expensive luxury (as insurance for manual cars will go through roof). Businesses will be first to adopt.

- any assembly job in a high-wage country... if your job is assembling stuff on a production line (e.g. assembling imported PC parts or similar) then your days or numbered

Also some schools of thought say that GPs and solicitors as we now know them will begin to disappear as technology and machine learning will eat their lunch for 80% of what they do.

kneemos

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I'm not arguing against it.

I just hope the people who would have had those jobs can get jobs elsewhere.

We need to prepare for a world where a lot of people simply won't have jobs to get.

This automation apocalypse has been going on for decades.

Here we are with full employment.

KildareP

Don't worry, what will happen after a few months is the shop will have been unwilling to pay for the maintenance and upkeep on these tills.

One by one the self-service tills will all cease working until eventually the entire lot will sit there, either with an error screen or more likely powered down altogether, and roped off from access.

What few remaining attended tills are left will have massive queues of people at them until the shop has no choice but re-add back in attended tills in their place again.

TuringBot47

Well apparently if you want a job sitting on your ass all day giving things a quick scan, then building inspector seems to be an alternative career, or financial regulator.

kneemos

Wichita Lineman wrote: »

I seriously doubt that any of the laid off workers are now in any of those jobs you mention.

Other people are,thus maintaining employment rates.

Get Real

kneemos wrote: »

This automation apocalypse has been going on for decades.

Here we are with full employment.

Couldn't agree more. In relation to self service tills in supermarkets etc, I don't think they have much of an impact on jobs. People aren't fired over them, but rather, placed on stocking/taking deliveries/counting safe etc so the back end of the business is run more efficiently.

Worked in a large chain in my college days and that single store employed circa 75 people. It now has 15 self service tills. But still employees around 75 people (+/- your usual 5 or 6 that may involve people leaving and difficulty hiring in current market).

The staff rate is based on a percentage of sales. Those staff can now be used to improve overall efficiencies in cleaning customer areas/cooking/food prep/stock etc.

For example, instead of having 5 human tills, and 3 staff in the back. A place may now have two human tills, and 5 in the back. Unloading goods more quickly, ensuring stock doesn't run out and there's no missed sales potential, an extra body for the bakery in the back etc.

We've had complaints of automation from the days of many men and horses being used to transport Guinness, to a changeover to a single man or two in a truck doing the work of hundreds.

There aren't thousands of unemployed horsemen today. Jobs don't disappear in periods of economic growth, new ones emerge.

Wheety

KildareP wrote: »

Don't worry, what will happen after a few months is the shop will have been unwilling to pay for the maintenance and upkeep on these tills.

One by one the self-service tills will all cease working until eventually the entire lot will sit there, either with an error screen or more likely powered down altogether, and roped off from access.

What few remaining attended tills are left will have massive queues of people at them until the shop has no choice but re-add back in attended tills in their place again.

This is not going to happen. Maintenance for these machines is much cheaper than wages for staff to sit there. Why do you thing they're becoming so prolific? For the customer?

Immortal Starlight

Hopefully there will be more than one assistant to help when 20 self service tills decide they have “an unexpected item in the bagging area”.

KildareP

Wheety wrote: »

This is not going to happen. Maintenance for these machines is much cheaper than wages for staff to sit there. Why do you thing they're becoming so prolific? For the customer?

Number of shops I regularly frequent (not going to name names on here) where the situation is just as I've described

El_Duderino 09

The Davestator wrote: »

You think that's bad - think of all the bank teller jobs lost with the introduction of ATM's.:rolleyes:

Silly argument born out of a silly Facebook post doing the rounds

It's not a silly argument. The closer automation comes to your job the less silly It will become to you.

I think we need to seriously consider the impact of so many low skilled jobs being lost. What does that do to supply/demand of low skilled workers? It increases supply and reduces a demand so low skilled wages are driven down (or don't rise).

More people who work will need government support because wages aren't enough to live on. So we pay for it one way or the other through the products we buy or through tax and social welfare.

Not a silly or trivial issue thought.

Wheety

KildareP wrote: »

Number of shops I regularly frequent (not going to name names on here) where the situation is just as I've described

The grocery stores I know, at most, has 1 or 2 out. With 5 or 6 working.

Although B&Q have removed their self-service tills. Maybe it doesn't really work when people are buying large DIY items.

what have people ever done as technology replaces the need for labour?

gotten on with it, adapated.

we're hardly worse off than we were before the loom was invented are we

El_Duderino 09

kneemos wrote: »

This automation apocalypse has been going on for decades.

Here we are with full employment.

Full employment usually means wages rise. This time wages are stagnant for the lower paid people (on the whole wages are going up but that driven by the Higher earners who's wages are rising)

Full employment isn't the end. You need everyone's wages to rise for the benefits to be realised.

Automation is taking jobs. That's not really debatable. It creates a few jobs and replaces lots of jobs. Businesses and people adapt but there's no doubt that lower skilled jobs are being affected

my3cents

I wonder how good are these Self Service Tills are at catching shop lifters. The ones that don't pay for anything.

A reduction in staff looks like an invitation to shop lift?

loyatemu

we're starting to see moves towards shorter working weeks in some industries:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/13/age-of-four-day-week-workers-productivity

there's nothing wrong with automation per se, the danger is if it just fuels corporate profits while driving down wages.

_Brian

Wichita Lineman wrote: »

I seriously doubt that any of the laid off workers are now in any of those jobs you mention.

This is going to sound mean but literally for decades students have been warned to get a good education and skill themselves to avoid automation taking their jobs.

Retail counter staff are easy pickings when it comes to automation.

TuringBot47

my3cents wrote: »

I wonder how good are these Self Service Tills are at catching shop lifters. The ones that don't pay for anything.

A reduction in staff looks like an invitation to shop lift?

Stores perform "random" checks on the receipts versus grocery bag contents.
Although depending on how dodgy you look/dress, the randomness of the checking may be skewed against you.
Whether or not an item found in your bag but not scanned through could be considered shoplifting or not, who knows.

But if you've put a barcode of a bottle of water over the barcode of a bottle of whiskey I imagine you could fool the system, but not a cashier.

Amazon are trying out stores with no cashiers or checkouts at all.
They track what you pick up.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/2/18122772/amazon-testing-larger-cashier-less-stores-report

kneemos

loyatemu wrote: »

we're starting to see moves towards shorter working weeks in some industries:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/13/age-of-four-day-week-workers-productivity

there's nothing wrong with automation per se, the danger is if it just fuels corporate profits while driving down wages.

Nothing to do with automation,just better productivity.

MrMusician18

Get Real wrote: »

Couldn't agree more. In relation to self service tills in supermarkets etc, I don't think they have much of an impact on jobs. People aren't fired over them, but rather, placed on stocking/taking deliveries/counting safe etc so the back end of the business is run more efficiently.

Worked in a large chain in my college days and that single store employed circa 75 people. It now has 15 self service tills. But still employees around 75 people (+/- your usual 5 or 6 that may involve people leaving and difficulty hiring in current market).

The staff rate is based on a percentage of sales. Those staff can now be used to improve overall efficiencies in cleaning customer areas/cooking/food prep/stock etc.

For example, instead of having 5 human tills, and 3 staff in the back. A place may now have two human tills, and 5 in the back. Unloading goods more quickly, ensuring stock doesn't run out and there's no missed sales potential, an extra body for the bakery in the back etc.

We've had complaints of automation from the days of many men and horses being used to transport Guinness, to a changeover to a single man or two in a truck doing the work of hundreds.

There aren't thousands of unemployed horsemen today. Jobs don't disappear in periods of economic growth, new ones emerge

The unemployed horsemen are all dead. The issue with automation and employment is not one which effects young people generally, but those in the mid to late stages of their career who find their jobs automated out of existence. Sure they could retrain but at that late state their options are limited. As low skill work evaporates, there are fewer options for these people.

There is no law of nature that says new technology will replace all the jobs it displaces

kazamo

In my local library there are self service machines for taking out or returning books.
The staff are very actively encouraging people to use these machines, almost to the point as to ask why you're not using them.

Was personally against this development as it reduces human interaction further as well as reduce the need to employ people. But after being asked numerous times had I been shown how to use the machine, I have gone over to the dark side.

Have no issue with technology, just believe that libraries are more about community and interaction.

my3cents

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Stores perform "random" checks on the receipts versus grocery bag contents.
Although depending on how dodgy you look/dress, the randomness of the checking may be skewed against you.
Whether or not an item found in your bag but not scanned through could be considered shoplifting or not, who knows.

But if you've put a barcode of a bottle of water over the barcode of a bottle of whiskey I imagine you could fool the system, but not a cashier.

Amazon are trying out stores with no cashiers or checkouts at all.
They track what you pick up.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/2/18122772/amazon-testing-larger-cashier-less-stores-report

I'm just referring to the fact that if large shop has very few staff will it encourage shop lifting to the extent that either prices go up or more security staff are employed?

Or does the reduction in staffing costs from the SST's balance any increase in shop lifting?

mariaalice

jester77 wrote: »

On the other side, lots of jobs created designing the system, writing the software, developing the hardware, installing it, maintaining it and running it.

plus all the HR, health and safety stuff etc, surrounding all the firms providing the system, installing it, maintaining it and so on.

Outlaw Pete

On the plus side, it's created lots of jobs for people that can shout Next!

branie2

Libraries have them as well

dhaughton99

heebusjeebus wrote: »

Plenty of jobs around that people can move into, with a bit of training. Healthcare is a big one that will see very little automation.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/26/jobs-future-automation-robots-skills-creative-health

Automation could also produce new roles that we don't initially see coming.

I think what you mean by healthcare is wiping old people’s arses for €11 an hour.

degsie

Look at how many farriers lost their jobs when the motor car came along

dhaughton99

I was in Dunnes yesterday and they had 5 old dears sitting at the tills and all the customers were using the self service checkout. Everyone was bypassing them. Same auld wans who have been working there for years. Probably can’t get rid of them until they retire.

4068ac1elhodqr

jester77 wrote: »

On the other side, lots of jobs created designing the system, writing the software, developing the hardware, installing it, maintaining it and running it.

Many reports suggest the losses will be greater than the gains.

Retail is at significant risk, you only have to look at the uk with 10,000's of retail job losses and stores closing every day (this week it's topshop).

The (Chinese?) machines run themselves and the software only gets written once, machines only get installed once, with minor updates/tweaks as needed, remotely send in from a handful of coders.

Retail is in line for further hits, thanks to tap'n go wireless payments (high trans speed). Then there is the rise of FRS (major privacy issues also), whereby your face can be recognised on the way in, doing away with those extra seconds of card tapping.

As for automation in general, this is only early Wave1 it's barely started. Estimates are for circa 40% workforce replacement come the early/mid 2030's.

A current top7 POTUS 2020 candidate isn't running soley on UBI for the sake of it.

Yes, some new jobs but the overall certainty is lower than expected losses.

ohnonotgmail

Time for the return of the Luddites.

kneemos

Drake Weak Waiter wrote: »

Many reports suggest the losses will be greater than the gains.

Retail is at significant risk, you only have to look at the uk with 10,000's of retail job losses and stores closing every day (this week it's topshop).

The (Chinese?) machines run themselves and the software only gets written once, machines only get installed once, with minor updates/tweaks as needed, remotely send in from a handful of coders.

Retail is in line for further hits, thanks to tap'n go wireless payments (high trans speed). Then there is the rise of FRS (major privacy issues also), whereby your face can be recognised on the way in, doing away with those extra seconds of card tapping.

As for automation in general, this is only early Wave1 it's barely started. Estimates are for circa 40% workforce replacement come the early/mid 2030's.

A current top7 POTUS 2020 candidate isn't running soley on UBI for the sake of it.

Yes, some new jobs but the overall certainty is lower than expected losses.

The interweb is killing retail, people aren't buying less.
Jobs will transfer to warehouse and delivery. Maybe fewer staff required for the warehouse but with the added delivery jobs.

Beta Ray Bill

There is a number of valid reasons why the Self Service tills are on the up.

First and foremost, Very few people do a big weekly shop anymore.
They go in and pick up a few bits and pieces 10 items or less.
Self Service tills are perfect for this.

Secondly they require less floor space than a till operated by a worker.
This means more space for shelves or add more self service tills which are faster than staff operated tills

Thirdly, they are way more secure from staff dipping the tills and/or being held up by robbers.


Final thought.
Working on a Till for your career.... Really?
I know people that have done it, I've no idea how.
It's such a low paid job, with zero benefits.

Self service tills are so successful now that even McDonalds are using them.
If the Machine can do the job 100's of times better than a human, then so be it

4068ac1elhodqr

kneemos wrote: »

The interweb is killing retail, people aren't buying less.
Jobs will transfer to warehouse and delivery. Maybe fewer staff required for the warehouse but with the added delivery jobs.

Buying less would actually help (reduce) the wealth transfer to China, isn't really a factor anyway (as to quantity/quality of purchases) regarding automation.

Amazon don't need humans in their warehouses, Some of the floor bots they have already can detect and avoid any human that gets in their way during their non-stop 24/7 shift.

Delivery will likely move to pick-up depots (less people required), in the states 3.5m long-haul drivers are at risk (hence Yang is a strong candidate). Yes the final mile delivery is tricky, but that's where (singular) staff, or FRS pick-up points come in.

Del2005

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

As a customer the proliferation of these in supermarkets is great. It's fast, easy to use.

As a worker maybe not so much.

The attraction for stores is not only customer convenience but cutting staff overheads simultaneously.

A local small supermarket recently went all in on self service tills in recent months and now have pretty much no till workers.

The change was dramatic like overnight a number of till workers were simply laid off.

But the effect is even more dramatic in my local Tesco - about 10 tills and all but one with a till worker (at the busiest time) - and one other person overseeing multiple self service tills.

There has been a lot said about technology effecting jobs but this is probably the most visible sign of it I have seen so far.

One wonders what the people who had those jobs or would have had them are going to do.

Surprised more has not been said about it in relation to job losses which across the country must be a lot, many thousands?

Hopefully these workers can train up and get other jobs.

I was in my local Dunnes before they installed the Self service tills. I was in a queue of 10 people for the only till open while half a dozen staff stood around talking. They now have self service tills and I rarely queue.

When cars took over from horses thousands of jobs were lost, when diesel/electric took over from steam on the rails thousands of jobs were lost. Yet no one is calling for us to go back to the horse and cart or steam locomotives.

The people who worked the tills will either retrain or take another minimum wage job, is you work a minimum wage job then it doesn't matter what you do.

Wheety

grahambo wrote: »

Final thought.
Working on a Till for your career.... Really?
I know people that have done it, I've no idea how.
It's such a low paid job, with zero benefits.

Self service tills are so successful now that even McDonalds are using them.
If the Machine can do the job 100's of times better than a human, then so be it

More women than men work on the tills for their working career. I used to work in a supermarket and the majority of these women had a husband earning more and they worked in a supermarket for supplementary income and the social element.

The McDonald's ones are great. They're doing massive work installing them everywhere. The Grafton Street branch was closed for a few weeks while they revamped it. Only one person on the till now for the people who refuse to use the self service ones.

You can order exactly what you want on the machines too. Remove an item from a burger or add something.

The Real B-man

my3cents wrote: »

I wonder how good are these Self Service Tills are at catching shop lifters. The ones that don't pay for anything.

A reduction in staff looks like an invitation to shop lift?

https://www.joe.co.uk/news/playstation-4-self-checkout-till-fruit-218059 :pac:

Guy:Incognito

TuringBot47 wrote: »

.

But if you've put a barcode of a bottle of water over the barcode of a bottle of whiskey I imagine you could fool the system, but not a cashier.

The bottle of whiskey is going to have to weigh the same as the bottle of water though.

Plus , do moat supermarkets not have security caps on the bottles that need to be taken off by the person at the tills too?

El_Duderino 09

degsie wrote: »

Look at how many farriers lost their jobs when the motor car came along

Yeah that's funny but nobody is saying we should shun technology. We can think of how to retrain people and make sure people face the skills necessary. We can avoid having people who do a grand job and then have the job pulled from under them and they're left stranded.

Guy:Incognito

degsie wrote: »

Look at how many farriers lost their jobs when the motor car came along

Surely they just transitioned in to fittings tyres instead. Plus a car is much more compliant when being fitted for new shoes

El_Duderino 09

my3cents wrote: »

I wonder how good are these Self Service Tills are at catching shop lifters. The ones that don't pay for anything.

A reduction in staff looks like an invitation to shop lift?

I wouldn't worry about it. I'm sure the shops have done the cost benefit analysis. They could afford More shoplifting if it cuts costs enough.

BeerWolf

That's a lot of trust on the general public.

4068ac1elhodqr

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

We can think of how to retrain people and make sure people face the skills necessary.

Agree, however the tricky part is that going forward it requires almost continuous, high-level education to keep pace with the rate of technological advacement.

Which in turn requires great expense, time and motivation.

Before long Joe Doe won't just be competing with Jane Duff, but with an artifical (near-super) automated intelligence.

Gimme A Pound

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

On the plus side, it's created lots of jobs for people that can shout Next!

I wonder do the staff in Next do that.

El_Duderino 09

Drake Weak Waiter wrote: »

Agree, however the tricky part is that going forward it requires almost continuous, high-level education to keep pace with the rate of technological advacement.

Which in turn requires great expense, time and motivation.

Before long Joe Doe won't just be competing with Jane Duff, but with an artifical (near-super) automated intelligence.

It will definitely cost money. No doubt about that. But people who slip out of employment and rely on social welfare and related social problems that come from poverty and unemployment and criminality are also expensive.

Completely worth investing in.

Arghus

There'll always be some employment for real human beings to fix the endless problems with the machines and help the people who can't use them properly without making a complete balls of it.