Schooled by an E-bike

rubadub

site_owner wrote: »

I don't think 25 or 30 is making much difference in terms of chipping, If people want to go faster they are usually talking about 35 or 45.

I really think it does. With the 25km/hr limit I am slower than on a crap bike, many must be the same, might depend on the roads people commute on. Once they go to the bother and expense of derestricting then, yes, certainly many will be going at 35+, just because they can and might feel they are getting value and/or fun out of the additional investment.

If they said instead of 50km/hr limits on roads they were going to restrict the sale of cars only to those automatically limited, and the limit was 40km/hr (slower than the commute in their old car) then if you could get them derestricted and there was pretty much no policing then I would guess many would be going faster than 50km/hr even though they were previously happy enough with that.

I would wonder how common it is to see people derestricing here vs the US or other places with higher limits.

magicbastarder

rubadub wrote: »

It would be very difficult for the average woman in her late 60s on a derestricted but otherwise road legal 250W ebike to maintain 45km/hr on the flat without wind resistance.

impossible, basically, if this calculator is correct.
maintaining 45km/h takes about 440W. (i put in rider weight of 60KG and bike weight of 20KG)

https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html

IIRC, power output required to just deal with air resitance increases with the cube of speed; and by the time you're at 30km/h, over 90% of your effort is already just pushing air out of the way.

beauf

Next step is a speedometer as required and then a new law about speeding as a cycling offence.

1bryan

fat bloke wrote: »

Gosh. Where's the danger then? - Second hand smoke inhalation? :pac:

sorry, I don't understand the question? The danger is someone haring along on an e-bike/motorbike, smoking a cigarette, up a cycle lane, running alongside bumper-to-bumper traffic, with 100s of school kids on the footpaths/trying to cross-the-road/etc.

I'm not sure if that answers your question because I don't know what the question was. Passive smoking is also quite dangerous for your health. I haven't researched it fully, but am vaguely aware that it can cause lung cancer, as well as being a contributory factor in many respiratory ailments.

1bryan

rubadub wrote: »

Would you support a 25km/hr limit for ALL cyclists? i.e. have them breaking going downhill etc?

I'm not sure why you ask this. The 25kmph limit is to do with when assistance should stop? Not the speed the person on the bike should go? So, I'd imagine, even on an bike that hasn't been 'unrestricted', they can go faster than 25kmph going downhill?

What relevance has that to what speed cyclists should cycle at?

1bryan

rubadub wrote: »

Yes, I think it is pretty similar and relevant. Not sure what you think is so utterly different that it has absolutely zero relevance. If the limit had happened to be in the UK would you also think it irrelevant? what about France? Countries often look to others to see what the situation is like, our own gov are doing this with escooters at the moment. It would be bizarre & stupid to ignore it.

all of it. I have simply not seen people commenting that the 20mph limit they have is "ridiculous". In searching there I just see the opposite, them seemingly surprised the EU limit is low.

How would you compare cycling infrastructure in (all of) America with that of Ireland?

How do you think the quality of cycling infrastructure should inform things like the legality of e-scooters, or the speed at which assistance should cut out, on e-bikes?

Also, just to clarify, we're not talking about speed limits here, right? We're talking about the limits where assistance is permitted?

1bryan

rubadub wrote: »

People have an issue with people pissing about on derestricted bikes, and I do think that is a direct result of the low limit. I doubt that woman in her late 60s would have bothered getting the bike derestricted and would have been happy going 30km/hr.

she might have been in her early 60s, hard to tell. Plus she's a smoker, and you know how those things can make you look older.

Macy0161

Interesting discussion on the latest cycling tips podcast about e bikes, and commuting*. Limit in the US is 28mph, so makes a bigger difference there.

Kinda got me thinking of it as a possible option, as although distance isn't an issue, time pressures and a prevailing headwind (and hills) home is.

*part of the eurobike discussion, started off about all the indoor stuff, and then ebikes, both of which seemed to dominate.

JMcL

grogi wrote: »

People who can sustain 30 km/h on a flat are those who have done thousands of km in the saddle already. Statistically they have enough experience to know when it is safe to cycle fast. And really - not a big fraction of those in the commute-by-bike community.

If you let the assistance go above 25 km/h, you are effectively opening the high-speed cycling for those less fortunate in fitness and experience area. Horrible idea.

This. I'd hazard a guess that a majority of contributors in this forum fit the profile in the first paragraph above. The inexperience aspect would seem to be borne out by the increase in fatalities observed in the Netherlands, of which older men (65+) riding e-bikes make up 3/4. While they may have been riding bikes all their lives, these were probably good chunky Dutch bikes at lowish speed.

Regarding the 25km/h limit, the source EU directive 2002/24/EC doesn't make reference to why 25km/h exactly, but was probably chosen as a reasonable limit that a relatively fit individual on a decent bike could maintain. I think it's perfectly apt - it's more than enough for urban commutes, and is fine for longer commutes on more open roads. At shorter distances it's a handful of minutes, and even at an hour it's 10 minutes difference.

Bear in mind as well that if you're going to do 30km/h for an hour, you could be in for a nasty shock on the way back. If you look at the interactive model linked to by MB a few posts back, sustaining 30km/h requires about 1.6 times the power compared to 25km/h which is going to drastically reduce range - not something envisaged by the EU directive, but still something to consider

Deadwards.com

Weepsie wrote: »

I had someone pass me on an ebike the other day. Was a folding one with fat tyres. I could hear them from way back. Sounded like a swarm of bees.

If this was along the Rock Road and had a front Pannier, this could have been me

In my defence though I think it sounds more like swarm of Hornets

5uspect

So I have my ebike for about two weeks now. As I posted earlier my commute increased from 18 to 24 km and I didn’t feel I could sustain that and still have enough in the tank for work and family.

My commute has a bit of country road and a bit of urban cycling and a few steep hills. The 25km/h limit is perfectly fine in town, the stop/start nature is no longer a pain as you’re back up to speed easily. Hills? What hills?

On the country road a bit more assist would be fun but not essential. I wasn’t able to cycle since May for various reasons so it’s great to be off the bus. My fitness level suffered also but I can cruise along at 28–30 km/h on the 24kg bike easily enough. I expect this to improve and hopefully get my fitness back up.

I have noticed that the assist on this new model fades out a good bit more gently than some older models I’ve test rode.

Ebike are great, they give you the opportunity to commute much longer distances. When you do start to tire you have a pleasant 25km/h pace to help you along. The only reason I would see to increase the speed limit is a selfish one.

magicbastarder

i'm quietly planting the seed with my father in law to get one. he's not as active as he should be, and coupled with his diabetes that's not great. plus, they live 4km from the nearest shop so are overreliant on the car when leaving the house. an e-bike would be very useful, but he's the sort of chap you need to make think that the idea was his before he'll act on it.

Utter Consternation

5uspect wrote: »

So I have my ebike for about two weeks now. As I posted earlier my commute increased from 18 to 24 km and I didn’t feel I could sustain that and still have enough in the tank for work and family.

My commute has a bit of country road and a bit of urban cycling and a few steep hills. The 25km/h limit is perfectly fine in town, the stop/start nature is no longer a pain as you’re back up to speed easily. Hills? What hills?

On the country road a bit more assist would be fun but not essential. I wasn’t able to cycle since May for various reasons so it’s great to be off the bus. My fitness level suffered also but I can cruise along at 28–30 km/h on the 24kg bike easily enough. I expect this to improve and hopefully get my fitness back up.

I have noticed that the assist on this new model fades out a good bit more gently than some older models I’ve test rode.

Ebike are great, they give you the opportunity to commute much longer distances. When you do start to tire you have a pleasant 25km/h pace to help you along. The only reason I would see to increase the speed limit is a selfish one.

When you have the full assist on, do you really have to put much effort in?

Would you break a sweat with it??

Duckjob

5uspect wrote: »

Ebike are great, they give you the opportunity to commute much longer distances. When you do start to tire you have a pleasant 25km/h pace to help you along. The only reason I would see to increase the speed limit is a selfish one.

I don't think its quite so simple as that.

If we were more like NL with separated cycle paths along most routes I would agree with you. However, our riding environment is an inherently hostile one with impatient, aggressive and potentially highly dangerous car / van / bus / truck drivers effectively pushing us along narrow roads in many places.

There's certain roads on my commute that I save my energy for because when I get on them I just want to go fast and get off them again as soon as possible.

I'm talking about narrow rural roads with no footpath, no hard shoulders and drivers expecting to do 80-100kph. I go as fast as I can on those roads because I feel less of a sitting duck for frustrated impatient drivers behind me. Riding at 35-40kph feels ok but I at 25kph I would absolutely feel like a sitting duck on those sort of roads.

After his recent visit to Dublin for Velocity, Bicycledutch even noted how Dublin people ride fast (trying to outrun traffic), and how even he instinctively began to ride much faster than he would in NL.

Utter Consternation

Duckjob wrote: »

I don't think its quite so simple as that.

If we were more like NL with separated cycle paths along most routes I would agree with you. However, our riding environment is an inherently hostile one with impatient, aggressive and potentially highly dangerous car / van / bus / truck drivers effectively pushing us along narrow roads in many places.

There's certain roads on my commute that I save my energy for because when I get on them I just want to go fast and get off them again as soon as possible.

I'm talking about narrow rural roads with no footpath, no hard shoulders and drivers expecting to do 80-100kph. I go as fast as I can on those roads because I feel less of a sitting duck for frustrated impatient drivers behind me. Riding at 35-40kph feels ok but I at 25kph I would absolutely feel like a sitting duck on those sort of roads.

After his recent visit to Dublin for Velocity, Bicycledutch even noted how Dublin people ride fast (trying to outrun traffic), and how even he instinctively began to ride much faster than he would in NL.

Fear adds an extra 20% to your speed. I know it does coming down the bloody Quays in Dublin anyways.

magicbastarder

Duckjob wrote: »

I'm talking about narrow rural roads with no footpath, no hard shoulders and drivers expecting to do 80-100kph.

granted, but this would probably count for a reasonably small minority of commutes where an e-bike may be the difference between cycling and driving.

beauf

I do agree that in some sections it feels far safer to merge with traffic and if it's fast flowing you need to keep up with that traffic. Certain junctions are like this. I can think of about 3 distinct places on my commute where I speed up.

In fact I've been window shopping eBikes and the one I prefer (no gears) my main concern is it won't be fast enough.

Utter Consternation

beauf wrote: »

In fact I've been window shopping eBikes and the one I prefer (no gears) my main concern is it won't be fast enough.

What are you looking at? A foldable bike?

kiely182

I use a hub motor 1000w and cruise at 40kph on open roads nothing dangerous about it. I slow to 25 in town . I use it to make cycling more feasible as a commuting tool. This week I've done 300miles just getting to work

beauf

Utter Consternation wrote: »

What are you looking at? A foldable bike?

Gtech belt drive no gears. Like the low maintenance aspect. And it's light. Hate clearing the drive train on winter wet nights.

Utter Consternation

beauf wrote: »

Gtech belt drive no gears. Like the low maintenance aspect. And it's light. Hate clearing the drive train on winter wet nights.

I was looking at that too, it looks class. The 'water bottle' battery is a nice feature. It's very well reviewed around the place and not prohibitively expensive.

It seems that for anything half decent you're looking at 1500 euro plus.

5uspect

Utter Consternation wrote: »

When you have the full assist on, do you really have to put much effort in?

Would you break a sweat with it??

I’m still pretty sweaty when I arrive to work and I need to shower. On a steep hill like the one at the Angler’s Rest among Strawberry Beds you can pretty easily climb like it’s just a minor hill. If you back off to slower speeds then it’s a breeze but your not just spinning either. End of the day the bike multiplies your power input by around 2X or 3X but the bike is also heavier.

I would recommend going for a test ride to see how much effort is required. The Giant or the Specialized stores here in Dublin will let you take one out for a short spin.

Utter Consternation

5uspect wrote: »

I’m still pretty sweaty when I arrive to work and I need to shower. On a steep hill like the one at the Angler’s Rest among Strawberry Beds you can pretty easily climb like it’s just a minor hill. If you back off to slower speeds then it’s a breeze but your not just spinning either. End of the day the bike multiplies your power input by around 2X or 3X but the bike is also heavier.

I would recommend going for a test ride to see how much effort is required. The Giant or the Specialized stores here in Dublin will let you take one out for a short spin.

I know that hill at the Anglers Rest, i've gone up it a few times, it's not easy.

That sounds good, i think i might one of the stores for a look.

Thanks!

5uspect

Duckjob wrote: »

I don't think its quite so simple as that.

If we were more like NL with separated cycle paths along most routes I would agree with you. However, our riding environment is an inherently hostile one with impatient, aggressive and potentially highly dangerous car / van / bus / truck drivers effectively pushing us along narrow roads in many places.

There's certain roads on my commute that I save my energy for because when I get on them I just want to go fast and get off them again as soon as possible.

I'm talking about narrow rural roads with no footpath, no hard shoulders and drivers expecting to do 80-100kph. I go as fast as I can on those roads because I feel less of a sitting duck for frustrated impatient drivers behind me. Riding at 35-40kph feels ok but I at 25kph I would absolutely feel like a sitting duck on those sort of roads.

After his recent visit to Dublin for Velocity, Bicycledutch even noted how Dublin people ride fast (trying to outrun traffic), and how even he instinctively began to ride much faster than he would in NL.

Apologies for the double post.

I think when you’re comparing two countries with differing transport cultures you have to be careful not to equate Irish cyclists with NL cyclists when contrasting motorist behaviour.

We have a lot of awful motorists who see bikes as kid’s toys and think just because they are in a car they are superior to another person on a bike. We also have a culture of cycling enthusiasts that, like some of their fellow countrymen can sometimes be a bit aggressive. Then we have a lot of commuters that are either reckless, inexperienced or caught in the middle.

In the Netherlands you have a much more mature attitude to cycling across the population. It’s just another way to get around and their infrastructure reflects their culture.

I think the only solution is time, investment and prosecution. Motorists need to be hit hard for dangerous driving. Cyclists need safe infrastructure. Everyone needs to calm down.

All My Stars Aligned

grogi wrote: »

People who can sustain 30 km/h on a flat are those who have done thousands of km in the saddle already. Statistically they have enough experience to know when it is safe to cycle fast. And really - not a big fraction of those in the commute-by-bike community.

If you let the assistance go above 25 km/h, you are effectively opening the high-speed cycling for those less fortunate in fitness and experience area. Horrible idea.

Completely agree with the above. To my mind this trumps any argument suggesting increasing the max speed of an ebike.

beauf

I don't see the need either.