Should Voting be mandatory?

4068ac1elhodqr

Wonder if voting and actual politics is somewhat underminded, when secretive groups get a random bunch of people together for a chit-chat, and likely influence future state/global policy.
e.g. The B'berg group meets this week in Switzerland, three from Ireland and nearly a dozen from uk. But looking at list in the tabloids, they're all slightly left-leaning.

AndrewJRenko

Jaylee Easy Foreigner wrote: »

Wonder if voting and actual politics is somewhat underminded, when secretive groups get a random bunch of people together for a chit-chat, and likely influence future state/global policy.
e.g. The B'berg group meets this week in Switzerland, three from Ireland and nearly a dozen from uk. But looking at list in the tabloids, they're all slightly left-leaning.

Bilderbergers are left leaning? Are you Trump or Farage?

You have a point about why some people are getting disillusioned with politics, but left leaning?

Leroy42

A West Cork candidate has been elected by the skin of her teeth - taking the final seat in her constituency by a single vote after two recounts.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/elections-2019/one-vote-every-vote-counts-cork-election-candidate-pips-rival-by-skin-of-her-teeth-38156668.html

Votes don't matter apparently.

L1011

Leroy42 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/elections-2019/one-vote-every-vote-counts-cork-election-candidate-pips-rival-by-skin-of-her-teeth-38156668.html

Votes don't matter apparently.

Also one seat in Wicklow this time. One seat in Galway was settled using FPV rules due to equal numbers on final count

Manach

No, for the following reasons .
1 A non vote is a form of protest as well that indicates a disengagement with the process, hence an indication that would be hidden by forced voting.
2 Ill or physically impaired people would face hurdles to avoid any fines as they could be unable to vote.

Leroy42

Manach wrote: »

No, for the following reasons .
1 A non vote is a form of protest as well that indicates a disengagement with the process, hence an indication that would be hidden by forced voting.
2 Ill or physically impaired people would face hurdles to avoid any fines as they could be unable to vote.

Point 1 doesn't stand up. Unless there is a massive no turn out then we have seen over many elections that non voters are simply ignored on the basis that they either don't care or are happy enough to let others decide.

The turnout for the presidential election was 43.87%, with 1,492,338 casting a vote, resulting in 1,473,900 valid votes. The Irish electorate comprises of 3,229,672 people.

https://www.thejournal.ie/low-turnout-presidential-election-4309871-Oct2018/

Have you seen any marked processes to deal with this? Has the presidency been called into question because of lack of engagement? No, the vote is counted based on the people that turn up, the rest are simply ignored. (BTW I am not saying this is correct, just that it is the way it is).

Point 2 - within mandatory voting you have many areas that people can opt out. People sent abroad for work, sick, needing to care for others. It is the same as jury service. The default should be that you must go, unless you have a valid excuse.

nc6000

Deleted User wrote: »

I don’t vote and wouldn’t appreciate been forced to. If there was a candidate that I thought would make a difference, I would vote for them. But all I ever see is just more of the same.

I didn't bother voting this time out which is the first time I've failed to vote in any election.

I've never voted FF and won't even consider them after the mess Ahern & Cowen left us in. FG won't be getting my vote because of their unbelievably careless handling of the housing crisis and other issues. Labour support has fallen off a cliff since their carry on after entering Government in 2011 so I won't vote for them and I also won't vote SF.

I basically worked backwards on the lists of candidates available to me in both the local and euro elections and excluded those who I wouldn't vote for and it turned out there was nobody left.

Leroy42

nc6000 wrote: »

I didn't bother voting this time out which is the first time I've failed to vote in any election.

I've never voted FF and won't even consider them after the mess Ahern & Cowen left us in. FG won't be getting my vote because of their unbelievably careless handling of the housing crisis and other issues. Labour support has fallen off a cliff since their carry on after entering Government in 2011 so I won't vote for them and I also won't vote SF.

I basically worked backwards on the lists of candidates available to me in both the local and euro elections and excluded those who I wouldn't vote for and it turned out there was nobody left.

I find it hard to believe that not one of the people standing could get your vote. Even a vote for an independent would register that you are not happy with the current path of the parties. Maybe giving a vote to a new standing independent, if only to give them encouragement that the political process can work.

osarusan

Any mandatory system would need a 'none of the above' option for sure.

Is there any evidence to suggest that mandatory voting leads to a more informed or engaged electorate in the long run?

Or does it just lead to a load of uninformed and unengaged people casting a vote, whereas otherwise they wouldn't vote at all?

L1011

Leroy42 wrote: »

Point 1 doesn't stand up. Unless there is a massive no turn out then we have seen over many elections that non voters are simply ignored on the basis that they either don't care or are happy enough to let others decide.

https://www.thejournal.ie/low-turnout-presidential-election-4309871-Oct2018/

Have you seen any marked processes to deal with this? Has the presidency been called into question because of lack of engagement? No, the vote is counted based on the people that turn up, the rest are simply ignored. (BTW I am not saying this is correct, just that it is the way it is).

Point 2 - within mandatory voting you have many areas that people can opt out. People sent abroad for work, sick, needing to care for others. It is the same as jury service. The default should be that you must go, unless you have a valid excuse.

Turnout is understated due to how many people are on the register multiple times. Quite significantly in areas with larger student populations and more rental properties.

I re-registered in 2015, I'm still on the register twice in the same town.

Rather than this mandatory nonsense, how about making it easier to check the register and re-registering/moving.

The search functionality is terrible on the sites and each area seems to have it's own, why is it not a national check?

Leroy42

L1011 wrote: »

Turnout is understated due to how many people are on the register multiple times. Quite significantly in areas with larger student populations and more rental properties.

I re-registered in 2015, I'm still on the register twice in the same town.

That is entirely down to you. A lot of the system is down to trust. Because people do not want to hand over too many details (such as PPS number which would eliminate double registrations) then the state relies on people to register in the place they live at the time and unregister in places they no longer require a vote.

L1011

Leroy42 wrote: »

That is entirely down to you. A lot of the system is down to trust. Because people do not want to hand over too many details (such as PPS number which would eliminate double registrations) then the state relies on people to register in the place they live at the time and unregister in places they no longer require a vote.

No, its down to the council as the re-registration includes the unregistration.

Its the same sodding council!

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

That is entirely down to you. A lot of the system is down to trust. Because people do not want to hand over too many details (such as PPS number which would eliminate double registrations) then the state relies on people to register in the place they live at the time and unregister in places they no longer require a vote.

Well the register is available to 3rd parties, for commercial reasons, so yeah I'm not handing over more than I have to.
Still available to certain parties, even with the opt out.

Tell me how

L1011 wrote: »

No, its down to the council as the re-registration includes the unregistration.

Its the same sodding council!

Why did you re-register if you were still on the system in that council?

L1011

Tell me how wrote: »

Why did you re-register if you were still on the system in that council?

Have you ever seen the form? Changing address *is* re-registering. The process is that the council either remove your old entry or inform the other council that holds it

They didn't

Absolutely and utterly their problem.

4068ac1elhodqr

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Bilderbergers are left leaning? Are you Trump or Farage?

You have a point about why some people are getting disillusioned with politics, but left leaning?

Funny enough Trump isn't attending, and Farage wasn't invited (not to mention the equivalents from nations such as Italy, France and so on), who each all outperformed their rivals in the recent EEs.

Perhaps left is slightly off, but not by far - if you look at the list of attendees (publicly available) there is a whiff of global banking elitists with funny sounding surnames.

From memory Trump actually stated he was anti-globalisation, more protectionist and nationally focused like is comparables.

Anyhow, any guesses what the powerful (mostly non-elected) few will decide policy wise for the coming year?

There is no minuites recorded at the secret gatherings, so guesswork is all there is to go on.

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

Jaylee Easy Foreigner wrote: »

.... there is a whiff of global banking elitists with funny sounding surnames.

Put down the dog whistle please. We'll have none of that here.

MartyMcFly84

Have I missed the evidence of this?

It's fairly well evidenced with declining voter turn out trends, and the existing process not changing in line with the changing lifestyles and pace of modern Ireland.

Tell me how

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

It's fairly well evidenced with declining voter turn out trends, and the existing process not changing in line with the changing lifestyles and pace of modern Ireland.

I'm not sure if there is a direct link between the mode of voting and the actual turn out. I'd be more inclined to think that it is to do with some form of apathy or a reduction in civic responsibility.

I would still argue that the solution is not to implement systems which lack transparency just so people who aren't engaged can spend 5 seconds every 5 years paying attention to politics.

MartyMcFly84

I'm not sure if there is a direct link between the mode of voting and the actual turn out. I'd be more inclined to think that it is to do with some form of apathy or a reduction in civic responsibility.

I would still argue that the solution is not to implement systems which lack transparency just so people who aren't engaged can spend 5 seconds every 5 years paying attention to politics.

Do you think there should be changes to the current voting system?

AndrewJRenko

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

It's fairly well evidenced with declining voter turn out trends, and the existing process not changing in line with the changing lifestyles and pace of modern Ireland.

Not really

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2018/1019/1005247-voter-turnout-elections-ireland/

Tell me how

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

Do you think there should be changes to the current voting system?

I'm not so sure. I wouldn't be saying there needs to be change just for the sake of it.

I mentioned previously on this thread about getting more people involved. Maybe a form of mandatory voting (where people can still actively select to decline all candidates) where if people don't vote in x number of elections over some period or face losing their right to automatic right to vote (which they can reapply for) or pay a small fine if they have not flagged that they would not be able to vote might encourage people to get involved.

I'm not saying I definitively think one of the above should happen, but I do think a healthy democracy would have turn out in the region of at least 70% fairly consistently and encouraging this is a worthwhile conversation.

MartyMcFly84

Not really

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2018/1019/1005247-voter-turnout-elections-ireland/

If you look at the table in the article you are referencing many of the factors associated with lower turnout are prevalent in modern Ireland .

Here are a few associated with low voter turnout from the article.

• Younger population
• Urban based employment
• Distance from Polling stations
• Week day voting
• Local authority or private rented housing
• Single or Separated people (divorce referendum)

These factors are increasing in todays Ireland and I believe are lending itself to the lower voter turnout as mentioned in previous posts. If these factors are increasing it would make sense we make changes to the current system to adjust for them.

AndrewJRenko

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

If you look at the table in the article you are referencing many of the factors associated with lower turnout are prevalent in modern Ireland .

Here are a few associated with low voter turnout from the article.

• Younger population
• Urban based employment
• Distance from Polling stations
• Week day voting
• Local authority or private rented housing
• Single or Separated people (divorce referendum)

These factors are increasing in todays Ireland and I believe are lending itself to the lower voter turnout as mentioned in previous posts. If these factors are increasing it would make sense we make changes to the current system to adjust for them.

Sure, they're important issues - but it's a big leap to suggest that new voting systems are the solution here. Surely we should be addressing the underlying problems, not the symptoms?

Gazzmonkey

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

The Nice Treaty I imagine is being referred to

Yes true, it happened there, but I was thinking of the more recent Lisbon treaty. So they done it to us more then once.

MartyMcFly84

Sure, they're important issues - but it's a big leap to suggest that new voting systems are the solution here. Surely we should be addressing the underlying problems, not the symptoms?

Certainly some of those issues like moving the Vote day to a Weekend would be a quick and relatively simple fix.

The other factors and trends which are symptomatic of low voter turn out are much more complex and need long term strategies, they are more likely to become the norm instead of the trend being reversed.

My suggestions of a new voting system was an idea for a solution that could be implemented in the short and medium term. As opposed to trying shift modern demographic trends which would be far more complex and multi-variant .

Nobelium

L1011 wrote: »

Turnout is understated due to how many people are on the register multiple times. Quite significantly in areas with larger student populations and more rental properties.

I re-registered in 2015, I'm still on the register twice in the same town.

This is a massive problem, the Irish register of electors is not fit for purpose. Every year I see people who have been dead for years still on the register, and polling cards are issued for them. Same with students etc.

As SF say on election day . .vote early. . and vote often.

Tell me how

Nobelium wrote: »

This is a massive problem, the Irish register of electors is not fit for purpose. Every year I see people who have been dead for years still on the register, and polling cards are issued for them. Same with students etc.

As SF say on election day . .vote early. . and vote often.

Is this not an old wives tale in todays day and age. It is hard enough to get people to vote once, I'm not sure how many would be motivated to vote twice or more apart from those with skin in the game so to speak but I imagine those are relatively small in number.

It is perplexing though that something as simple as an electoral register cannot be managed appropriately in 2019.

Gavin Reilly would make a far stab at it with a few open-doc spreadsheets.
Or, as someone else mentioned, if it was shifted to use SSN as the primary identifier then it would have to be much better.

L1011

FF used to run free buses from Dublin to the west to enable people to vote for them twice - officially for those registered just at home of course!

My two cards were for totally different polling stations - different buildings not just boxes - if I was so inclined - suspect its still happening to some extent.