N25 - Midleton to Youghal [planning and design to commence 2023]

Chris_5339762

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525006#Comment_121525006

I'd say the position on it prior to that was to do nothing at all. The several years thing I don't think came into it. Quite why they never considered this route at all over the years was always a bit of a mystery to me. Even during the good times, there were vague plans for many, many routes that have now been canned. But not this one.

I'm very glad that FF TD threw the toys out of the pram because it meant that some seriousness got attached to this route, which is more deserving of an upgrade (Killeagh and Castlemartyr aside) than several in the system at the moment.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524505#Comment_121524505

I thought the TII and NTA actively were against funding the County Council's sprawl plan, and told them to get the crayons out again, no?

KrisW1001

Carrigtwohill-Midleton was stopped before ABP had a chance to kick it out. It was nothing more than an enabler for suburban car dependent sprawl, dressed up as a remediation project.

N25 as a whole saw a lot of investment through the nineties, which left it in a much better state than other primaries, especially those around Cork. This has put it at the back of the queue for improvements, even quick wins like bypassing Castlemartyr.

Chris_5339762

True to an extent, but even when the Atlantic Road Corridor was a thing back in the post 2010s, there were plans for Dungarvan, and the gap between Waterford and New Ross, but absolutely nothing for Midleton to Youghal. It was weird.

KrisW1001

Midleton-Youghal is congested in Castlemartyr and to a lesser degree in Killeagh, but it is a pretty safe road overall compared to other primaries in Cork. That counts against it when decisions have to be made on which project to fund. N22 Macroom or N25 Midleton-Youghal? Obviously N22. N20 or N25? N20. N28 or N25? N28 every time (plus the TenT contribution helped).

Gunner3629

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41297284.html

Transport Minister Eamon Ryan will be prioritising the Castlemartyr bypass ahead of the final phase of the Midleton northern bypass.

Cork County Council recently asked for priority approval for funding from Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) to upgrade the Midleton to Carrigtwohill (N25) road.

However, construction is still unlikely to get under way until at least 2027.

KrisW1001

That is absolutely the correct priority, and should have been done long before now.

I expect something fairly short to cut the corner of N25 that the town sits in. Even a single carriageway would be fine here (traffic flows well enough either side, even at peaks). If the alignment of this road will become part of an eventual N25 Midleton-Youghal, I'd expect either 2+2 or a single with wide verges that could be cheaply retrofitted to 2+2 later.

Bypassing Castlemartyr will hugely improve Killeagh, as a lot of the delays there are due to traffic skipping Castlemartyr by going through Mogeely.

JeffKenna

Brilliant if this goes ahead. Biggest game changer on the road since the youghal bypass. Well done to James O' Connor for putting this on the agenda.

AugustusMinimus

Anyone have a map for the proposed Midleton Northern bypass?

KrisW1001

No map, as the scheme is still in design, but it's described as:

"The completion of the Midleton Northern Connectivity Corridor requires the construction of a new road between the R627 at Broomfield and the R907/N25. This will complete a route around Midleton with links to the N25 at both ends. This will allow the reduction of traffic in the town centre, particularly heavy goods vehicles.

The project will include an upgrade of the existing junction between the R907 and the N25 with a new roundabout. This roundabout will enhance road safety."

R907 is the Youghal Road - it's the eastern Y-junction with N25

AugustusMinimus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121549311#Comment_121549311

I would have thought the northern relief road would have been extended to the R627. However I’m not sure there is a corridor available. Very poor planning.

mcburns07

Pretty sure that's going to be tied in to the proposed expansion of the Jameson Distillery between the existing site and the Youghal Road.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121549699#Comment_121549699

The Broomfield (Avoncore) route is a complete mess alright, yep. Maybe they'll CPO a load of land immediately North of the Train Station? I can't see it happening.

Pretty sure that's going to be tied in to the proposed expansion of the Jameson Distillery between the existing site and the Youghal Road.

That would be great yes, but I'm not sure if there's any space available for a Northern tie-in to the R626? That's what's badly needed. Midleton train station is really underperforming as a P&R too without this connectivity, so it'd be great if they could at least tie the train station into the R627 as part of this work...

AugustusMinimus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560373#Comment_121560373

There needed to be an entire northern orbital. I can’t see that happening. What a mess.

Pete_Cavan

The priority at Midleton should be a new junction east of the town with new link roads running north and south. Extend the rail line 1.2km and add a new P&R station on the train line to divert some of the commuter traffic currently travelling from east of Midleton to west of it. It would take some pressure of Lakeview RAB (north/south traffic as well as east/west), albeit it would still be over capacity. The P&R car park would also double as the greenway trailhead so would get use at weekends also.

It is the kind of project which would get funding and shouldn't be too contentious so could progress quite quickly. Would make more sense than some of the other things that are being talked about.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565098#Comment_121565098

Yeah I agree with everything you're describing here.

The "new" station and access road could encourage better development to the North-East of the town, which is currently a lot of sprawl and effectively disconnected from town.

With some (OK a lot of) ambition you could reduce car parking at the current station, develop some of this land, and introduce a new active transport artery up to the Broomfield direction through the train station grounds.

Leatra

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41326555.html

Bit of progress on the Castlemartyr/Killeagh bypass(es) reported in the Examiner.

Gunner3629

Little bit conflicting headlines. Examiner above saying 'N25 Relief road' suggesting just the town of Castlemarytr will be bypassed.

On the other hand, The Echo refer to "Midleton to Youghal N25 scheme" which is a much larger project.

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/arid-41326744.html

Which one is it.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738898#Comment_121738898

They are both the same for now. Until we see a Phase 1 feasibility study/scope released (which hopefully we will soon), they are in effect both the same scheme. In Phase 2 the parameters of the scheme will be decided in earnest.

Gunner3629

Thanks Marno.

"It is significantly over capacity with more than 19,000 vehicles per day travelling through Castlemartyr on busy days — almost double the daily traffic on the Waterford-Dublin motorway."

I find this statistic absolutely extraordinary and shocking. It just goes to show how much East Cork has been left by the wayside over the years. Its a crying shame that it has taken this long. But atleast we have progress now.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739008#Comment_121739008

Absolutely bizarre that it was left out of the 2018 NDP also, no good reason for it when far quieter roads were included.

Chris_5339762

Its always been an absolutely bizarre omission.

Though that said, the N71 and N22, as well as the N25, are busier than sections of the motorway network.

hans aus dtschl

It doesn't make any sense to me. I can't understand why it was left behind. Some people seem to think N24 upgrades will suffice but they won't: a lot of the traffic on the East Cork corridors is not end-to-end.

Frostybrew

Let's hope they go for a full section of motorway from Midleton to past Youghal, and not a couple of relief roads. The numbers support it; along with the elimination of accident black spots, the linking of two regional cities, three major ports, and improving access to two airports. Indeed, re-designating the N25 from Dunkettle to Midleton, to motorway, should also be looked at.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741663#Comment_121741663

You'd need a secondary route on the section between Carrigtohill and the East and South of Midleton, but a lot of distributors are in planning right now, so it might well be possible.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741663#Comment_121741663

The numbers absolutely do not support a Type 1 DC anywhere between Midleton and Waterford.

Type 2 from Youghal to Midleton and around Dungarvan can (just about) be argued for, but the case for dualling any other stretch between Youghal and Waterford can only be made on the grounds of continuity and safety, not capacity.

Frostybrew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744046#Comment_121744046

There were access roads planned as part of the Carrigtwohill to Midleton upgrade, though I don't know if they would have facilitated those areas.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121746514#Comment_121746514

20000 AADT is the capacity for a type 2. Castlemartyr is at 19000 already, which is also a higher traffic volume than most of the existing motorway network. There's not much room for future proofing here with a type 2. The section from Midleton to Youghal has a very strong case for motorway, based on traffic levels alone.

Youghal to Dungarvan would not need dualing, on this point we agree. A new blackwater bridge is also needed at Youghal; though I would prefer this be a separate scheme, as a Youghal to Midleton motorway would be inexpensive to build, due to favourable topography and relatively short distance.

KrisW1001

Where did you find that figure? It's 16300 weekday AADT between Castemartyr and Midleton according to TII : https://trafficdata.tii.ie/sitedashboard.asp?sgid=XZOA8M4LR27P0HAO3_SRSB&spid=5229D2644906&accessible=1

... this is the busiest part of Youghal-Midleton.

Capacity of Type 2 is nominally 20,000 but this limit is due to the use of Compact GSJ and at-grade roundabouts: it can be increased to 30,000 by using higher capacity junction designs.

But we're not going to build capacity for the benifit of car commuters. . it's a waste of resources. A 2+2 fixes the safety issues and gets traffic out of the villages. Any further investment will be focused on giving people better alternatives to driving in and out of Cork city every day.

Agree that, apart from a new Blackwater bridge and the unimproved stretch at Kinsalebeg, there's not much else needed as far as the Cork/Waterford border. In Waterford county, Dungarvan is an issue, but the landscape will make that very expensive.

Frostybrew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121749812#Comment_121749812

The figure is referenced above in the thread. The case for motorway here is very strong. The main reason this section of road has not been upgraded to this standard, is the poor standard of politician in this part of Cork. I'm all for better alternatives to car commuting, but this is not just a commuter road. It's a vital link for several major ports and industrial areas, on a national level. It has a far stronger case than existing motorways such as the M18, M3, and M17.

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121746514#Comment_121746514

TII’s AADT range for Type 2 is 11600-20000. For 2023, the AADT was 16460 between Midleton and Castlemartyr, and it was 11614 between Killeagh and Youghal. So Type 2 is definitely justifiable all the way to Youghal, though only barely as you get closer to Youghal.

KrisW1001

The 19,000 figure was pulled out of someone's orifice, I'm afraid.

Castlemartyr to Midleton is not just a commuter road, but it is mostly a commuter road. I regularly drive N25 Cork-Waterford against the commuting flow and it's very clear where the traffic is joining and leaving. Castlemartyr has a major traffic gain due to cars from the Garryvoe road.. A bypass (which will go to the north) won't actually solve this without also including a relief road south of Castlemartyr itself.

Once you're east of Castlemartyr, traffic drops dramatically; by east of Youghal there's almost none. The problems at Killeagh are mainly knock-on effects of people trying to avoid Castlemartyr by going through Mogeely, but Killeagh is small enough that any bypass would be short.

@cantalach, Castemartyr to Youghal is only scraping the lower bounds for Type 2 DC, which is why I said "just about" justified.

Honestly, a Type 1 single would suffice as a Killeagh bypass. I'm well aware of how unpopular the idea of single carriageways are around here, but I know this road very well, and capacity is not the problem at Killeagh. DC would be the best option at Castemartyr, but the idea of a motorway (Type 1 Dual) anywhere here is just not realistic. If there was money for such a build, it would be better spent elsewhere on the network.

omicron

The AADT figure for Castlemartyr to Midleton is taken east of the two mile inn, where a significant amount of traffic has left the n25 to rat run through Mogeely, I would imagine the figure would be significantly higher if it was taken to the west of this junction.

Frostybrew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121751721#Comment_121751721

This is probably where the 19000 figure is coming from, and a better reflection of what is happening in reality. A type 2 dual carriageway will be a huge waste of money on this section, as it will be obsolete by the time it is built; and lead to many fatal accidents.

"Castlemartyr to Midleton is not just a commuter road, but it is mostly a commuter road."

Almost all of our motorways are mostly commuter roads. In fact, this one would be comparatively less so. You're still ignoring the strategic aspect, which is of far greater national developmental importance than many of the other motorways that have been completed, and almost all other currently proposed. Suggesting a single carriageway would suffice for a bypass of Killeagh, is borderline trolling, though I suspect your opinion is overly influenced by ideology rather than developmental reality.

KrisW1001

“Where the 19000 figure is coming from” is still someone’s imagination. The N25 dual carriagway west of Midleton has an AADT figure of 18,500. A figure of 19,000 AADT at the other, far less populous side of the town before the major traffic sources of Midleton and Cloyne/Whitegate have been added just cannot be correct. Find reputable traffic-count data and I’ll believe it, but until then, it’s just someone exaggerating the facts to try an make a weak case stand up (and, in the process, undermining the genuine case).

I am really not trolling, and I don’t have an ideology except that I want the road network upgraded to a proper, safe and efficient standard. What I don’t have is a fetish for “Motorway” signs. In my view, money wasted on overspecified projects just so people can see blue lines on a map is money that can’t be used to straighten and improve deadly sections of the secondary road network.

Killeagh is at the upper end of a type 1 SC right now, but if you know this road, you know the reasons why this creates stop-start delays: the traffic lights, the right turn for rat-runners avoiding Castlemartyr, and a couple of local junctions on the Cork side. The delays are always worse on the eastern approach than the western, which makes it clear that this isn’t a road-capacity problem.

I’d prefer a Type 2 to continue to the east of Killeagh, but if the justification for Type 2 doesn’t go further than Castlemartyr, then Killeagh will still need a short bypass. The greatest benefit here is from simply taking the village main street off the N25, and at current traffic levels, a Type 1 Single will do that - and I did also say that it should be designed with terminal junctions that allow it to be easily upgraded to 2+2 later. Make the terminal junction grade separated, have the land-take and bridge spans wide enough for conversion to 2+2 and the route is future-proofed, but what’s more important is that the problems are fixed earlier than if you try to push an unnecessary “motorway” through a rural area.

Pete_Cavan

Talk of motorway is pointless as long as the Lakeview RAB remains in place and the road between west of Midleton is a mess. Having the existing level of traffic passing the Lakeview RAB and travelling further west is unsatisfactory, nevermind attracting additional traffic to do so. I have long assumed that TII's reluctance to initiate a project east of Midleton is because they know that it will solve some problems but will add to problems elsewhere and make addressing Lakeview even more difficult.

The existence of motorway elsewhere is not relevant to the cross-section for another unrelated road. That applies doubly so when you look at the state of the western part of the N25, which carries even more traffic. Say there's a motorway somewhere else isn't justification for building motorway east of Midleton. Also pushing for motorway is tantamount to saying nothing should be done here for the next 20 years.

As I've said before, a P&R east of Midleton should be part of the solution. That would releave the Lakeview RAB somewhat and really improve the case for Castlemartyr + Killeagh bypasses from an economic and environmental pov.

Leatra

For what it’s worth, I don’t think the 19,000 figure as quoted is wrong, it’s just doing a bit of generous lifting. The line was that there are “more than 19,000 vehicles per day travelling through Castlemartyr on busy days,” and given that in July 2023 and July and August 2021 the monthly average traffic was over 18,000 a day I’m sure there are indeed some days that see over 19,000. Whether we should use bank holiday traffic to the seaside as our benchmark, of course, is a different matter entirely.

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739008#Comment_121739008

Deliberately selects the quietest section of M9 for a bit of exaggeration and anti south east bashing at the same time- the blessed M8 figures are very similar but of course our cork based politician wouldn’t dare point that out

Chris_5339762

Upgrade Midleton - Youghal to 2+2, motorway, whatever you want (I'd support either), but the pinch point that will be hardest to fix is the Lakeview Roundabout at Midleton. And thats not that easy to fix due to surrounding houses and other stuff.

Jayuu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121754601#Comment_121754601

The reality is that the M9 was never really justifiable as a motorway on traffic counts but was more that when the Dublin > regional city inter-urbans were being planned and built, it would have been political dynamite not to include Waterford on that list because it was always referened as a city historically. It also was advantageous that this could include Kilkenny as well on the route.

KrisW1001

N9 was certainly over-built (I am from Waterford, before anyone starts), but at the time there wasn't a lower capacity inter-urban dual carriageway design that could be applied, and the requirement was that the cities all be linked to Dublin by dual carriageways at a minimum. I'm happy with what was done, but I know it was overkill.

If the Type 2 DC was in the manual back then, I think it would have been used south of Carlow.. it's not that Waterford is a "lesser" destination than the other cities, more that Waterford-Dublin can be a choice between N9 or N25-N11 depending on where you're going, and where you're starting from. No other city's hinterland has two good routes to the capital like this, and that other option of N11 does affect traffic volumes on M9.

marno21

Scope of this project. Not sure if this was published here before.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769139#Comment_121769139

Slightly disappointing it doesn't cover Ballinacorra and Dungourney, seems like it wouldn't have been much more effort to include them.

Interesting to see them come so far west of Midleton though. The council will get their Milebush suburban sprawl come hell or high water :D !

Chris_5339762

Scope is good, apart from the fact that it doesn't include a new Youghal bridge. There is no alternative bridge right up to the N24. No good one anyway.

I can quite imagine why it is not included for cost reasons though.

markodaly

To be honest, if some new route bypasses both Killeagh and Castlemartyer, that would suffice. The rest of it isn't too bad given Youghal is already bypassed. Would open up East Cork a lot though.

mcburns07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770005#Comment_121770005

What were you hoping to see for Ballinacurra / Dungourney? From the area and was surprised to see you mention Dungourney in particular.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776422#Comment_121776422

I'd like them to talk about a connection from the R627 Dungourney road directly onto the N25 instead of going through Midleton town itself or via the small back-roads. I basically wanted them to bolster the case for a proper Midleton North Distributor, during their corridor analysis.

With Ballinacurra, I believe they are avoiding analysis of the R629 which is reasonably heavily trafficked, and again would be nice if they could bolster the case for a major Midleton East interchange (instead of Lakeview).

In "crayons" something like the attached overall. But they won't focus on that, and it's understandable.

MidletonEast.PNG

KrisW1001

Nice to see Lakeview roundabout brought into the study area of this project... addressing Castlemartyr won't do a lot of good unless Lakeview is also tackled.

If the final thing covers that area, this will be a much more beneficial scheme to the region than Midleton-Glounthaune.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776525#Comment_121776525

Really it should go the east side of the Lakeview roundabout and be a slip road instead of another roundabout.

The roundabouts don't work in the mornings with heavy traffic, where one free-flowing entrance can monopolize the movement of everyone else.

You could see this before they built the slip at Lakeview coming up from Saleen. The traffic coming from Castlemartyr prevented the Saleen traffic moving.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776566#Comment_121776566

Oh totally agreed, I just put in a circle roughly where I felt a new interchange could be.

I just think we need rid of Lakeview now, that's my biggest desire there. My secondary motivation is getting Dungourney traffic out of Midleton and third motivation is getting Cloyne traffic out of Ballinacurra.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776583#Comment_121776583

All fantastic suggestions.