Catholic Ireland dead? **Mod Warning in Post #563**

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941170#Comment_121941170

It took a little over a couple of generation for the Church of England to become a minority cult in the UK, so I don't think I will be waiting that long.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121935357#Comment_121935357

The fact that ireland voted no had nothing to do with religion - pretty much every referendum in the last ten years or so that the bishops campaigned against was passed. Before the 8th, when was hte last time the Church campaigned for a vote and people actually listened? Certainly wasn't abortion, divorce or marriage equality.

So the number of catholic voters is just as irrlevant as the number of Jedi or pastafarian voters.

And for the love of God, anything the census says about "religion" can be prtty much dismissed, because you know as a well as I do, that claiming a religion on a form doesn't mean **** when it comes to actually living your life according to a religion. Can't believe people bring up the census to show church influence in modern ireland!

Thus, the number of catholics in ireland is just as irrelvant as the number of Jedis or pastafarians (bless his noodly goodness).

The catholic church isn't dead in ireland, but it's losing relevance and has been for some time.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941229#Comment_121941229

Probably not if you’re going to compare apples and oranges like that, you could even claim Catholicism is a minority cult in Ireland now if you like. Meanwhile as regards the status of the Church of England in the UK:

Results of the 2021 Census for England and Wales (that is, not including Scotland and Northern Ireland), which asked the question "What is your religion?", showed that Christianity is the largest religion, followed by Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism and Buddhism in terms of number of adherents, while Shamanism is the fastest growing religion. Among Christians, Anglicans are the most common denomination, followed by Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists and Baptists. This, and the relatively large number of individuals with nominal or no religious affiliations, has led commentators to variously describe the United Kingdom as a multi-faith and secularised society. The Census has also been critcised by statisticians and demographers for its use of a leading question which critics say inflates the number of people reporting a religious identity. Other major surveys which ask a differently worded question find a majority of people in the UK do not belong to a religion, with Christianity the largest religion.

The Church of England is the state church of its largest member country by population, England. The Church of England defines itself as neither fully Reformed Protestantnor fully Catholic. The Monarch of the United Kingdom is the supreme governor of the Church. Some British people and organisations in the United Kingdom, such as Humanists UK, hold the view that the UK should become a secular state, with no official or established religion. A survey published in April 2022 also revealed that whereas a fifth of those polled thought that Anglican bishops should remain in the House of Lords, three-fifths thought they (as unelected clerics) did not have a place in a modern legislature and another fifth were "don't knows". Commenting on this, Martyn Percy, former dean of Christ Church, Oxford, noted that "To the extent that the Church [of England] retains unique privileges in comparison with any other religious organizations, it can be said that the UK has religious freedom – but, embarrassingly, not religious equality."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_Kingdom

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941263#Comment_121941263

If the census was accurate I'd be hearing Irish conversations all the time.

Iscreamkone

Recently I was driving past a church in our town with my eight year old girl. She asked me why there was more cars there than usual. I said that there must be a mass on. She replied “that’s not for people like us, that’s for old people”…

Soon there will be no priests or a regular congregation. They are all entering their final decade.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941329#Comment_121941329

You obviously don't understand that people who have never been to church and know nearly zilch about Christianity still regularly tick the church of England box whenever asked.

The handful of crematoriums in Dublin are going to be inundated in the coming years. Time to start building more to meet demand.

Weddings are fine, plenty of venues and celebrants for those.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941263#Comment_121941263

It can’t be the first time you’ve come across the phenomenon of someone claiming that because of the outcome of anything, everyone agrees with them? In this case the poster who is Catholic themselves, was making the argument that the people agreed with the Bishops. It’s more a case of a broken clock being right twice a day than the idea that anyone even gave a toss what the Bishops argued, given the Bishops have always been preaching the same argument, regardless of any referendum.

Anything the census says about religion can’t be dismissed, because what it’s used for is to determine Government policy and where religion is particularly important for the Dept. Of Education and Skills who use it to make determinations about the establishment and funding of schools, or the Department of Health using it to make decisions about Hospitals and and so on, various different functions that for sure, most of us just either don’t think about, or don’t care about.

That’s why it’s important to know how many of the population are of any particular religious denomination or none, and why those people who did put down Pastafarian or Jedi on the census form really weren’t helping anyone, though I’ve no doubt they imagine they were hilarious altogether:

https://www.thejournal.ie/census-religion-jedi-knight-2723572-Apr2016/

https://humanists.uk/2021/03/12/why-you-shouldnt-write-jedi-as-your-religion-in-the-census/

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941344#Comment_121941344

I do, and I understand why you’d be keen that they wouldn’t do that either as from your perspective they’re messing up the statistics! See the same point I made to PB about why the religion question on the census is important.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941422#Comment_121941422

You've made the mistake here of thinking religious domination implies faithful devotee. You know better than that.

And it can and should be dismissed because Ireland is not the non-secular state.

Why are pretending that the census is a baromoter of public opinion?

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941895#Comment_121941895

A lot of people who think they're Roman Catholic don't realise that only the clergy are the church and everyone else who turns up are the flock.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941895#Comment_121941895

I do know better than that, which is why I don’t make the same ‘mistake’ that the poster making the claim did. The reason I say ‘mistake’ in inverted commas is because I don’t believe it was a mistake, but rather a comment intended to wind up atheists who the poster claims are easily exited. I’m not atheist, but the post was a pretty obvious attempt to get a reaction, it’s why I didn’t react to the post directly.

It can’t be dismissed, for the reasons I’ve mentioned already. I’ve not pretended that it is a barometer of public opinion, I gave the reasons why it’s important and where it IS useful. I’m aware it doesn’t represent a barometer of public opinion (so is the media, but it doesn’t stop them writing excited articles about the demise of Catholicism and the rise of non-religious demographics, fudging the figures to suit their narrative), but rather all it does is measure a single data point. It doesn’t question the veracity or validity of anyone’s faith, nor does it offer a space for an individual opinion which is open to multiple interpretations. It’s incredibly precise in the data it attempts to capture, which is why even if the person filling out the census form knows fcukall about the faith, that isn’t what’s being asked for or used in the data. It’s simply asking how they identify.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942027#Comment_121942027

Fair enough, but he was responding to the point made by another poster that "we Catholics have just kicked butt in the recent referendums" with factual and accurate information to the contrary: the number of catholics has dropped statistically, and it has.

As we're not commenting on actually practicing, the error was made by the previous poster.

You also said:

It’s not the dumbest conflation I’ve ever heard, considering the idea that according to census figures in 2022, there were over 3.5 million Catholics in Ireland, about 2 million of those eligible to vote, and we could say half of those turned out to vote, so that’s still 1 million Catholics of the total polled (1.5 million),

which is using census statistics to imply people who ticked catholic on the sensus automatically voted along catholic lines; which means that this

with 2/3 of those polled voting against the proposed amendments.

is a correaltaion/casuation fallacy: there's no proof that that the correlation of being catholic and voting against the amendment is the casue of their voting against the amendement.

QED - there can be no link between being catholic on the census or in daily life and voting no.

Hawkeye123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121933876#Comment_121933876

You mean I won't get fired and jailed for not using pronouns other people want me to use?

Oh wait, that's how things used to be when we had the highest church attendance in the world.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942443#Comment_121942443

Can't guarantee the being fired bit because that's between you and your employer; don't think jail is on the agenda though - it's never happened (I'll assume you're smart enough to not mention Enoch Burke). One way or the other, it's not going to be your religion that lands you there, it'll be the fact that you committed a crime.

What are our levels or church attendence - is it even measured officially?

EDIT: 35% in 2016

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2018/0821/986468-after-francis-whats-the-future-for-the-church-in-ireland/

EDIT 2: Apparently, we're not even the highest in Europe - that honour goes to Poland.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/05/10/religious-commitment-and-practices/

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942272#Comment_121942272

I know what I said, which is the point you cited, and STILL missed:

It’s not the dumbest conflation I’ve ever heard

Meaning, I’ve heard much worse, not by much though 😂

And as for the “we Catholics” bit… you know my favourite response to “we” anything, where I have no wish to be included in the posters narrative who’s committed to the fallacy:

https://youtu.be/pjPTn44ibRM?si=mqH8zpX15iT8p9Jg

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942576#Comment_121942576

It’s not the dumbest conflation I’ve ever heard - which is why I said "fair enough" and attributed error to someone else.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942697#Comment_121942697

Right, and you still moved the goalposts to an argument that was never made, no point in the QED when the argument was that the people of Ireland agreed with the Bishops. It was never that there was any link between being Catholic on the census or in daily life and voting no. That’s why I pointed out that while the poster can make claims about what “we Catholics” did or didn’t do, they would have to acknowledge that we don’t all think alike, if they were trying to argue that the outcome of this particular referendum was a result of people agreeing with the Bishops.

I could see how they would put two and two together and come up with five. That’s all.

Hawkeye123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942498#Comment_121942498

Ah but you forget, the past is a different tense to the present. Ireland did have the highest church attendance in the world, at over 95% back in the 80s.

You mention "official" figures. Well the above stat was one I recall reported on RTE at that time (the past, not the present). That was when RTE reported the news. Today we have Gript media for that.

Since you mentioned Enoch Burke, he is in jail at the moment because of his views. The courts and propagandists will tell you it is for other reasons but his beliefs are what guide his words and actions.

If you lived in Nazi occupied Europe, you would have been commenting a crime punishable by death of you harboured people the regime wanted to "process" in some way. So the laws of man (and woman) sometimes leave a lot to be desired.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943685#Comment_121943685

Enoch Burke is in jail because of his behaviour, not his views. You are in conspiracy theory territory with that stuff, but it requires no evidence to believe, just like religion.

You are going all the way back to the 80's to try and make a point, what does that say about your point?

You mention the Nazis, their allegiances with the Vatican are well documented. The first political pact the Nazis entered into was the Concordat of 1933, Hitler himself said he was doing the work of God in Mein Kampf, a book which the Vatican didn't ban when it had the chance to. The Vatican exchanged control over education in Germany for the Nazis to have control over everything else. The Vatican also helped Nazis escape Europe after WW2 through the ratlines to South America.

You say the laws of man (and woman) leave a lot to be desired, if your god is responsible for the good, they are also responsible for the bad. You can't pick and choose, well you can, but I will call you out on it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943685#Comment_121943685

I know full well that the past is the past, sure and the church was far more influential and I've no reason to doubt your claim about attendances back in the 80s, but that wasn't your argument.

And YOU know full well Burke is in jail for contemp of court and chooses to be so; and you know full well Gript is a private right-wing publication and not an official impartial news sourse, so the rest of your post is trolling and you'll forgive me for not biting :) have a nice evening!

Hawkeye123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943773#Comment_121943773

If I can't site the 80s to make a point, perhaps you would like to discount all of human history as you're at it. After all, most of it happened before the 80s.

Yes before the outbreak of WWII the Vatican agreed not to criticise Nazism in order to protect the Church in Germany. Basically the church was blackmailed but you are right, they should not have compromised with evil. If you watch the movie The Scarlet and the black, the protagonist, a priest did help the family of the Gestapo commander escape to Switzerland because they would have been killed if he hadn't.

The UN helped a million perpetrators of the genocide in Rwanda escape to the DRC, having done nothing to stop the genocide and even trying to keep the killing hidden from the world. So the UN are worthy of condemnation but the Church was simply trying to save people, be they Jews during the war or anyone in danger after the war.

God did not make evil. Evil created itself by rejecting God. The parable of the seed sower provides the analogy. But another is to be found in Willy Wonka's chocolate factory. Remember the bad egg?

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943871#Comment_121943871

You are referencing statistics from the 80's now, and for what? Ireland did have a high church attendance, it doesn't now, which is the more important part do you think?

Gonna need some evidence on the black mail claim. The church entered its pact with Hitler (and Mussolini as well) in order to disband the Christian part so the Nazis could have a straight path to power, and they did so in exchange for control of the education system. They also rang the church bells on Hitlers birthday, Nazis swore and oath to god when they were enlisted, they have a reference to god on their belt buckles. It is not hard to know this. If you are getting your history from a movie, maybe read a few books.

Can you tell me why then, the Pope had to apologize for the Churches role in the Rwandan genocide?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/20/pope-francis-asks-for-forgiveness-for-churchs-role-in-rwanda-genocide

I thought God made everything, but not evil? Is't that very convenient, when something good happens, it is Gods plan, when it doesn't...well God missed that part then I guess.

This is how religion makes people think and say stupid things.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943904#Comment_121943904

I thought God made everything, but not evil? Is't that very convenient, when something good happens, it is Gods plan, when it doesn't...well God missed that part then I guess.

Especially when He employed some of the most evil pricks in the history of the State. or maybe that was someone else....?

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943988#Comment_121943988

Shhhhh, do not mention all the acts of evil done in his name, he really didn’t want them to do it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944001#Comment_121944001

Apparently thye rejected Willy Wonka.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944014#Comment_121944014

Now that’s an act of evil!

I.R.Y.E.D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944014#Comment_121944014

You called?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Also, let's not forget the insects that eat children's eyes out from the inside - did they reject God? Or was it the chlidren who's eyes are being eaten out (assuming they had the chance)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo

Vote4Squirrels

Why don't we just live and let live ? I'm Catholic, I pray, I go to Mass.

My best friend of near 30 years is a devout Atheist. We agree to disagree.

The religious and the secular can happily co-exist without taking the p**s out of each other's beliefs. Ricky Gervais, famously atheist, does a cracking routine on it "sure keep praying, but we'll do the chemotherapy as well...". Nailed it!

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944984#Comment_121944984

Live and let live...when the same sex marriage referendum was on, we had religious groups telling us no and how gay people should live their lives. Same again with abortion, priests etc on prime time telling us again, how to live.

You might live and let live, I am sure you know full well that there are activist groups who will not do that, and will actively try to take a ruling hand over peoples lives. Be that catholic, muslim, whatever it may be.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946511#Comment_121946511

I had the same argument with the hard line as I’ve been an ally to the gay community for decades, holding the hand of a friend’s partner as AIDS took him too soon.

I campaigned for equal marriage and voted yes for Repeal. I’m sure some view me as a bad Catholic. I don’t care.

Extremists of any persuasion are dangerous and I’ll have no part of them.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946528#Comment_121946528

I genuinely applaud your position.

I will say, maybe unfortunately, that what I put forward as examples are not extremist at all, they would be very much inline with the current teachings of the church, or any other mainstream religion. Underneath it all, is still this archaic idea that we are created, not only that but created sick and commanded to be well, under pain of penance of being sent to hell should you not adhere to these rules.

My stance on religion is that it undermines us in our most basic existence. We are not created, we are evolved. It makes people use faith over reason, again a very primitive way to live ones life, especially in the face of the mountains of evidence to undermine the basic premise of the bible, or any holy book.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946610#Comment_121946610

Sadly I think you are right - I’ve always preferred to go with the “Jesus” teachings - don’t judge, preach love etc but I’m very aware that the party line is very different.

A lovely couple of guys I’m friends with had their marriage blessed (admittedly on the quiet) by a priest in the UK. I’d like to believe soon that will be the norm. Hopefully.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944984#Comment_121944984

That, unfortunately, is not an option when said church campaigns for national decisions that include people who no longer or never did subscirbe to their faith. Why should abortion be banned for everyone when not everyone disagrees with it?

The other issue is education: if he can gave an equal education system with no requirmeents for birht certificates and no catholicism in classrooms, then we can agree to disagree.

YOU may live and let live, fair enough - but the Church does not.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946787#Comment_121946787

It doesn’t because they have just as much right in a democratic society as any other civil rights organisation to opine on issues which are pertinent to Irish society. This particular numpty wouldn’t be out of place in Irish society today:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Creagh

We all had a bit of a chuckle at this particular space cadet:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/kerry-priest-says-gay-politicians-going-to-hell-if-they-dont-repent-1386373.html

And in terms of education, well here’s a press write up on the independently funded ultra Catholic school you might not know (or care) exists:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41307634.html

As an independent school, the school is outside the remit of the Department of Education and does not have to follow the State curriculum.

That whole philosophy of “live and let live” is nothing more meaningful than a pitiful aphorism open to different interpretations, depending upon whom you’re talking to, or talking about:

The co-founder of the school Grace Cantillon-Murphy says in a YouTube recording on the school’s website that “there are so many conflicting messages in schools and society of, you know, you have your truth, I have my truth; I have to respect you and respect your truth but that is not the truth. The truth is the way that is Jesus Christ. He is the only truth.” 

silliussoddius

Always hilarious that people who complain about "my truth" want a free pass on Jesus truth.

The truth is the way that is Jesus Christ. He is the only truth.” 

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946893#Comment_121946893

It’s a fairly transparent attempt to portray themselves as ‘objective’. As if! 😂

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946886#Comment_121946886

NO organisation in a democratic society has a right to force or deny an action upon an entire nation based on their personal beliefs any more than I have a right to force or deny an action on them.

What the church is saying is "we want to ban everyone from having abortions" when it should be saying "we want to tell Catholics not to have abortions".

No idea what you're saying in the live and let live paragrepah and I'm not talking about independent schools.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121947031#Comment_121947031

That’s not what I said. The Church no more does “live and let live” than any other civil rights organisation in society in relation to decisions about public policy, whether that be in relation to law, education, politics, etc. That’s not saying they have a right to force or deny an action upon an entire nation, it’s making the point that they have the same right as any other organisation or individual to opine on matters of public interest.

In just the same way as you imagine what the Church should be saying, they have the right to ignore you and continue preaching what is in accordance with their beliefs, or teachings, or doctrine, etc. That’s what it means to live in a democratic society. That’s why I made the point that the philosophy of “live and let live” is nothing more meaningful than a pitiful aphorism - the person deploying it means “live in accordance with my beliefs and I’ll be happy”, as opposed to acknowledging the reality that nobody has to seek their permission to live however they want, as that individual or group just doesn’t have the authority or the ability to enforce their will on anyone, precisely because of that whole democratic society thing.

The point about independent schools was in response to your ideas about education - nobody has to seek your approval, so whether or not you agree or disagree, or agree to disagree, is of no consequence to them whatsoever. Even if they weren’t an independently funded school, they are entitled to apply for public funding as a recognised school in accordance with the rules of the existing patronage system, just like abortion is available as a public service in the public healthcare system, in spite of the objections from the Church and individuals who bang on about what “their” taxes are, or aren’t being spent on. If those people don’t like it, they have the same opportunity as anyone else to vote for political parties which align with their interests, or values, ideas or beliefs.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121947137#Comment_121947137

But if they're advocating taking rights away from someone else while defending it by saying that they have the right to free speech, then that would make them hypocrits. Civil rights organisations tend to be the other way around: they usually try to GET rights for people, not take them away from people.

Regarding education, I never objected to them recieving public funds - I object to them discriminating:

The other issue is education: if he can gave an equal education system with no requirmeents for birht certificates and no catholicism in classrooms, then we can agree to disagree.

If they are NOT recieving public funds, then sure - they can do as they please - but again, I'm not talking about independent schools.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121947187#Comment_121947187

It doesn’t make the Church a hypocrite? They’re exercising their Constitutionally guaranteed and protected freedom, same as every other civil rights organisation. Applying your logic concludes with this sort of silliness:

As regards education - they have the right to discriminate, a right embedded in the Constitution, recognised by the State, but I wouldn’t call you a hypocrite for trying to deprive them of that right, not because I think it would be silly, but because I’m absolutely certain you wouldn’t give a damn.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121947305#Comment_121947305

I'm not saying the can't, I'm saying the shouldn't; and if they do, they're hypocrits, so the meme is only accurate if you think I'm forcing cahtolics to personally endure sincul activities.

Beyond that, you're not actually disagreeing with me, you're advocating their right to dictate and discriminate, so I guess we're done here?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121947513#Comment_121947513

The meme is accurate on the basis that by your determination, they are hypocrites because they’re not acting in accordance with your idea of live and let live. Who’s the hypocrite there really?

You haven’t gotten beyond that much yet, notwithstanding the fact that you must be aware that the majority of women seeking a termination of their pregnancy are Catholic, and I wouldn’t call them hypocrites. I’d understand you calling him a hypocrite if it was the priest who knocks up their housekeeper and then tells her to get an abortion because he’s not going to support his children as it would interfere with his preaching to the faithful about The Family.

I can’t say I’d be able to resist passing judgement on him either, much as my faith forbids it.

Shoog

The fact that there was 95% mass attendance is the 80s is testimement to the fact that if you failed to attend you were publicly condemned from the pulpit. The social pressure to conform was intense in 80s Ireland, and those who couldn't left.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121947622#Comment_121947622

Live and let live wasn't my post, it was someone else's - someone who subscribed to the catholic faith - so the meme is NOT accurate.

Your faith is just that - yours.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948216#Comment_121948216

Quoting directly from your post:

YOU may live and let live, fair enough - but the Church does not.

Entirely accurate meme - ‘live and let live’, by your standards. That’s the quiet part you don’t say out loud, it’s just implied (by me, of course), because that’s the only basis upon which you can declare anyone a hypocrite. Which is fine by me btw, that’s entirely your own business.

’Snot just my faith either, objectively it is the faith, but I’ve no doubt you understood that much anyway given this particular conversation developed from the idea of the Bishops and/or the Church having the right to opine on social issues and attempt to influence law, politics, etc. Frankly I’d be surprised if they weren’t doing what the Church was established to do!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

In what way am i forcing the church to submit to my morals? I don't care what they teach to their believers. Are you supporting the freedom to oppress?

Hangdogroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943685#Comment_121943685

Enoch Burke and his family arent Catholic.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948848#Comment_121948848

I didn’t accuse you of attempting to force the Church to submit to your morals? You wouldn’t be able to point out what you see as their hypocrisy if believers lived their lives in accordance with your standards, so it’s to your benefit in that sense at least that they don’t.

Your question however, as to whether or not I support the freedom to oppress? Well that’s just bad faith argument, and you’d call it out as such were you in my position. It’s their freedom that you say they shouldn’t have, is what I support, and by that I mean it goes back to what you declare the Church shouldn’t be doing. I’m certain they’re not taking notes.