Catholic Ireland dead? **Mod Warning in Post #563**

Plumbthedepths

One eyed Jack wrote:

Your idea that we are now a society of compassion and empathy where we apparently weren’t before. Society hasn’t changed at all - there’s still an authoritatian minority obsessed with punching down, and their targets haven’t changed either.

So you referenced M Cash, ok I'll bite. She has never worked or contributed to society.Our society has looked after her very well. A house, free education for her children, medical care and a very generous cash allowance every week.
Her lifestyle angers many who work everyday yet their wages do not allow them emulate her lifestyle. Again I don't get your reference of Cash

One eyed Jack wrote:

Edgeware was making the point in relation to Christ’s teachings. Come on, it wasn’t that difficult to understand.

You assume everyone places importance in writings by multiple individuals over an extended timeframe with many contradictions.
My point is easily defined as you do not need religion to tell you not to be a dick to others. Many societies have existed without 'Christian' values.

tigerboon

I haven't gone to mass since I was about 12. Just wasn't arsed with the whole thing. I haven't had bad experiences with the church or anything, just think organised religion is a load of bollix.
What bugs me is adults thinking they're cool and right on running down other people's beliefs. You're not cool, you're a d**khead. You didn't have the balls to think for yourself when you were a teenager. Religion isn't a thing in real life. Most people don't give a crap. Think for yourself and don't be voting for sh*t because we're so "progressive ".

One eyed Jack

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

So you referenced M Cash, ok I'll bite. She has never worked or contributed to society.Our society has looked after her very well. A house, free education for her children, medical care and a very generous cash allowance every week.
Her lifestyle angers many who work everyday yet their wages do not allow them emulate her lifestyle. Again I don't get your reference of Cash

You didn’t need to bite anything, genuinely. I wasn’t trying to bait you, I was just making the point that your opinion that we are now a society displaying compassion and empathy - we’re clearly not. Like I said, there are the same authoritarian minority now as there were then, and their compassion and empathy didn’t extend farther than the end of their own nose.

The vast majority of people in society were as apathetic then as they are now, and that’s why we now condemn the conditions in the workhouses as they were then, and some people imagine themselves now to be compassionate and empathetic. It’s clearly not true - society hasn’t changed at all, and the treatment of Margaret Cash is just an example of that, one among many.

You assume everyone places importance in writings by multiple individuals over an extended timeframe with many contradictions.
My point is easily defined as you do not need religion to tell you not to be a dick to others. Many societies have existed without 'Christian' values.

I didn’t assume any such thing. I assumed that you would at least be aware of the person upon whose teachings Christianity is based. Other societies existing without Christianity are beside the point.

I do agree with you though that one doesn’t need religion to be a dick to others, many people are perfectly capable of being dicks to others without being motivated by religion, which brings us back to the point I made above that society has not changed at all in spite of your belief that we have become a more compassionate and empathetic society.

Plumbthedepths

One eyed Jack wrote:

Your idea that we are now a society of compassion and empathy where we apparently weren’t before. Society hasn’t changed at all - there’s still an authoritatian minority obsessed with punching down, and their targets haven’t changed either.

Actually I believe I said a society does not need to be Christian to show compassion or emphathy

One eyed Jack wrote:

Edgeware was making the point in relation to Christ’s teachings. Come on, it wasn’t that difficult to understand.

Assuming someone knows what you are talking about or refering to is my opinion arrogance .

One eyed Jack

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Actually I believe I said a society does not need to be Christian to show compassion or emphathy

Sure, I agree with you. But the original point you were making is that Ireland has become a more compassionate and empathetic society. I’m making the point that there is no shortage of evidence to demonstrate your belief is easily refutable.

Assuming someone knows what you are talking about or refering to is my opinion arrogance .

Now you’re just being silly. Do you need to check the thread title again for clarity?

Mr. teddywinkles

Let's drink to death of all religions.

Plumbthedepths

Plumbthedepths wrote:

A society displaying compassion and empathy, very little of do with Christianity tbh.

This was my first post here

One eyed Jack wrote:

Sure, I agree with you. But the original point you were making is that Ireland has become a more compassionate and empathetic society. I’m making the point that there is no shortage of evidence to demonstrate your belief is easily refutable.

. See my above post

One eyed Jack wrote:

Now you’re just being silly. Do you need to check the thread title again for clarity?

I'm being silly in your opinion because I happen not to share your beliefs.

Dash_Of_Red

Great thing to see the Catholic Church's grip evaporating.

mcmoustache

Dash_Of_Red wrote: »

Great thing to see the Catholic Church's grip evaporating.

It'll still have a place. For example, if you don't like gays, Catholicism provides a cover for that. Instead of saying you don't like gays, you can say that Leviticus disapproves and pretend that you've read the rest of it.

One eyed Jack

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I'm being silly in your opinion because I happen not to share your beliefs.

I gave you the reason why you’re being silly - it was perfectly clear from Edgeware’s post, and from the fact that you had made reference to Christianity, and from the title of the thread, that the person being referred to was Jesus of Nazareth.

You can pretend to be as dense as you like, but frankly I don’t believe anyone could possibly be so dense. It has nothing to do with whether or not you share my beliefs.

Plumbthedepths

One eyed Jack wrote:

I gave you the reason why you’re being silly - it was perfectly clear from Edgeware’s post, and from the fact that you had made reference to Christianity, and from the title of the thread, that the person being referred to was Jesus of Nazareth.

No it's perfectly clear if your share the same beliefs and everyone those.

One eyed Jack wrote:

You can pretend to be as dense as you like, but frankly I don’t believe anyone could possibly be so dense. It has nothing to do with whether or not you share my beliefs.

Not pretending to be dense but genuinely curious as to the arrogance.

Bobblehats

It is not dead a new generation of Irish shall breathe new life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DafADWNvP6c

RicketyCricket

If all that came before this didn't kill the catholic church, then todays vote won't. This poison will live on sadly.

DesperateDan

It's going to take 2 more generations before Ireland is not considered Catholic I reckon. To think we're only just now living with / as a bunch of 30 somethings with children that are Christening their kids because it's the 'done' thing to do to keep grandparents happy.

The kids being christened now will be a lot more likely to tell their kids they don't care about churches. But the grandkids of the kids being christened now - all but the most fervent God-fearers will manage to pass it down that far.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I'm 30 and still consider myself a member of the Church.

My young son has taken Communion and will be Confirmed into the Church.


They were there for me and my family through very dark times.


I'm very proud to be an Irish Catholic.

eagle eye

I think I dislike the outspoken haters of religion more than those that get in your face pushing their beliefs.
Why can't we all just live and let live and not have hate in our lives?
The Catholic Church will survive as will all other religions.

Junkyard Tom

It's with MaCavity in the grave.

Timberrrrrrrr

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Good news:

“Islam is now listed by the CSO as being one of the fastest growing religions in Ireland.”

Something to look forward to in the future. In 20 or 30 years we will look back on these days as the calm before the storm.

What storm are you shìting about?

Love how you lads jump in with the "what about islam" crap.

Yay Godlessness!!

People fail to understand how much of their ethical framework is down to Christianity..
The Neu-materialism that will fill the void might not be better..

Zubeneschamali

As for first communion etc, people still go to Holy Wells and tie bits and bobs to bushes and leave medals there.

Those practices (and the holy wells themselves) date back before Christianity even arrived in Ireland. White dresses, bouncy castles and afternoon pints will still be around when nobody can remember who that Jesus guy was supposed to be exactly.

B0jangles

^^ Exactly ^^

People marked the major points in life - birth, puberty, marriage, death long before Christianity was ever thought of, and will mark those same points long after it's gone. Marriage wasn't even a recognised as a sarcrament in the catholic church until the 12th century. Pointing at the fact that people celebrate these events as evidence of the persistence of Christianity is getting the whole thing backwards.

LuasSimon

Plenty Catholics voted yes as well , for many Catholics a lot of the instructions go over their heads and these days many choose what suits them .
Been part of a community and saying a few prayers brings peace of mind to many however misguided it may be . I’d be a lot more concerned about local drug dealers and burgulars than those who say a few prayers together every Saturday or Sunday.

wakka12

Honestly its disturbing that more than one in ten adults think two people shouldnt be allowed to get divorced

SPDUB

wakka12 wrote: »

Honestly its disturbing that more than one in ten adults think two people shouldnt be allowed to get divorced

Where are you getting that from ?

There was no vote about banning divorce .

TCM

TCM wrote: »

There is no association between 'catholic Ireland' and this vote. Get a grip. Didn't you know we've had divorce in Ireland for some considerable time now.

This is bizarre and clutching at straws.

An estimated 87% of the voting public actively endorsed making divorce more liberal.

Can you imagine anyone that disagreed with divorce would vote to make it easier?

A church representative made a lame attempt to get out a no vote, but the RC church knew this was a lost cause.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

As determined by whom, you?

Just because this is AH doesn't mean logic breaks down. If you don't believe in core RC beliefs you're not Catholic.

If you're relying on a pedantic definition because as children you were baptised into the RC church then you are Catholic forevermore then that's pathetic.

whisky_galore

The religious orders protecting themselves and their interests from claims are far from dead.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just because this is AH doesn't mean logic breaks down. If you don't believe in core RC beliefs you're not Catholic.

If you're relying on a pedantic definition because as children you were baptised into the RC church then you are Catholic forevermore then that's pathetic.

That appears to be exactly what it means to people who imagine they have any authority to determine who is or isn’t Catholic. I don’t have to rely on any pedantic definitions in order to recognise that nobody has the authority to determine for someone else whether they are or aren’t Catholic.

I wouldn’t even regard their proclamations as pathetic though, just irrelevant.

s7ryf3925pivug

They still have excessive influence at an institutional level.
People who don't practice, don't believe in their teachings still have holy communion for their kids, send them to religious schools, have catholic weddings and funerals, don't object to these things, call themselves catholic etc etc. That enables them to retain control of most schools and influence other institutions including the Dail. It's apathy and passivity not belief or zeal.

lawred2

lbc2019 wrote: »

With that resounding 87% Yes in the exit poll for the divorce referendum surely that signifies the final nail in Catholic Ireland's coffin?


I for one am delighted.

Delighted with the resounding result but the divorce referendum was over twenty years ago.. this proposal was nothing more than removing technicalities that should never have been in the Constitution

lawred2

As for Catholic Ireland dead? Not while they control almost all national schools they are not. And I don't see much in the way of overwhelming resolve from people when divestment comes to the crunch..

As recent events in North county Dublin demonstrated.

pnecilcaser

I thought that the school no longer had to do the communion thing? The presence of the church in schools is the root of what remains of the church here in Ireland I think. It's that level of indoctrination.

Dexter2019

lbc2019 wrote: »

With that resounding 87% Yes in the exit poll for the divorce referendum surely that signifies the final nail in Catholic Ireland's coffin?


I for one am delighted.

Thank the lord.

lawred2

pnecilcaser wrote: »

I thought that the school no longer had to do the communion thing? The presence of the church in schools is the root of what remains of the church here in Ireland I think. It's that level of indoctrination.

Change ultimately has to be forced on the boards of management. And they are overwhelmingly in the pockets of the Catholic Church.

OldMrBrennan83

Dead with some, not with others. Though the others probably don't wash with the new brigade who want to see Ireland dead, let along Catholic Ireland.

Timberrrrrrrr

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Dead with some, not with others. Though the others probably don't wash with the new brigade who want to see Ireland dead, let along Catholic Ireland.

Who wants this ?

Mrsmum

Francis Deep Rag wrote: »

They still have excessive influence at an institutional level.
People who don't practice, don't believe in their teachings still have holy communion for their kids, send them to religious schools, have catholic weddings and funerals, don't object to these things, call themselves catholic etc etc. That enables them to retain control of most schools and influence other institutions including the Dail. It's apathy and passivity not belief or zeal.

I don't think it's either. Imo people are just doing what they enjoy. They enjoy the Sacraments so they do them. They enjoy the Church at Christmas so they do that. They feel good getting a mass said for someone so they do that. They are absolutely fine, better than fine, happy out actually, having their children taught the Catholic background at school. They admire and involve themselves or support charity stuff the church does locally or globally. They don't agree with other stuff like Catholic teaching on abortion, divorce, sex before marriage so they ignore that. That's private stuff they'll decide for themselves. But overall they'll do what they enjoy.

OldMrBrennan83

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Who wants this ?

The Twitter/Boards generation that hate anything that has ever been connected to Ireland.

One eyed Jack

lawred2 wrote: »

Change ultimately has to be forced on the boards of management. And they are overwhelmingly in the pockets of the Catholic Church.

They’re not in anyone’s pockets seeing as Boards of Management in Catholic schools are entirely voluntary?

Mad_maxx

yasmina wrote: »

Agree.

I'm 'home' nearly a year after being away for 20.
We're in rural Ireland and my kids have gone into a small local primary. They are the only kids in the school of 100 who don't "do religion", or in other words, the only non-catholics. The whole communion/confirmation thing is HUGE. I totally underestimated it. Now I don't think that these families are going to mass regularly outside of this, but I don't really know because I don't be going

On a side note, I have found that in rural Ireland if you don't go to mass or play GAA then you are not really part of the community. Everything revolves around this.

If your grandfather didn't hurl for the parish, your not part of the community in rural Ireland, you might think you are but not really

10fathoms

Mrsmum wrote: »

I don't think it's either. Imo people are just doing what they enjoy. They enjoy the Sacraments so they do them. They enjoy the Church at Christmas so they do that. They feel good getting a mass said for someone so they do that. They are absolutely fine, better than fine, happy out actually, having their children taught the Catholic background at school. They admire and involve themselves or support charity stuff the church does locally or globally. They don't agree with other stuff like Catholic teaching on abortion, divorce, sex before marriage so they ignore that. That's private stuff they'll decide for themselves. But overall they'll do what they enjoy.

Ah yes, the "a la carte" approach to Catholicism...

iguana

Mrsmum wrote: »

But overall they'll do what they enjoy.

I don't think so. I have a 6 year old and the amount of complaining I'm hearing from friends with kids a couple of years older is unreal. The expense of the communion party, the stress and feeling of obligation of it. The stress of knowing if your child will have enough guests as their school friends are all at their own parties and if you don't have a big family or another family gathering is happening that day, you could have spent a fortune on a party for a handful of people. The stress of dealing with an 8 year old with maybe €1000 burning a hole in his/her piggy bank. And even the stress coming from a desire, themselves, to lose weight ahead of the big day.

Very, very few of the mothers I talk to would actively choose to do communion if it weren't for the feeling of obligation. (I know a few actively religious families who would choose it and they tend to keep their celebrations more low key.) The others constantly describe it as a huge pain in the ass that they could do with out. I've actually been shocked by the level of absolute antipathy about this ritual I'm experiencing. I thought people enjoyed the big party aspect but most don't seem to at all. It's mainly a feeling of obligation and an unwillingness to make their child be the odd one out. A surprising amount of people wouldn't be sorry at all to see the whole thing just quietly disappear, they just don't want to be at the ones to make the change as that too is a massive hassle.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Right so let's create a vacuum for some other new found crap. Never being very religious but ya know what. Better the devil ya know. Ha I made a funny.

Emmm....no you didn’t.

lawred2

One eyed Jack wrote: »

They’re not in anyone’s pockets seeing as Boards of Management in Catholic schools are entirely voluntary?

My eyes couldn't roll hard enough...

One eyed Jack

lawred2 wrote: »

My eyes couldn't roll hard enough...

They may roll as hard as they like, it still wouldn’t make your statement any more true than it wasn’t already. They would be in the pockets of the Minister for Education if the State had to fund salaries for their positions. Instead, they are members of the community who manage the schools on a voluntary basis, ie - unpaid voluntary work in nobody’s pockets, acting in the best interests of the schools community.

lawred2

One eyed Jack wrote: »

They may roll as hard as they like, it still wouldn’t make your statement any more true than it wasn’t already. They would be in the pockets of the Minister for Education if the State had to fund salaries for their positions. Instead, they are members of the community who manage the schools on a voluntary basis, ie - unpaid voluntary work in nobody’s pockets, acting in the best interests of the schools community.

Give me a break. The act of volunteering means nothing for the motivations for volunteering.

I've seen the product of these voluntary efforts first hand in North county Dublin where letters were handed to kids to take home to their parents re divestment. Those lies were a long way from the best interests of any community.

The act of volunteering doesn't render someone pure. Nor is monetary gain required to be doing the bidding of others.

Shefwedfan

yasmina wrote: »

Agree.

I'm 'home' nearly a year after being away for 20.
We're in rural Ireland and my kids have gone into a small local primary. They are the only kids in the school of 100 who don't "do religion", or in other words, the only non-catholics. The whole communion/confirmation thing is HUGE. I totally underestimated it. Now I don't think that these families are going to mass regularly outside of this, but I don't really know because I don't be going

On a side note, I have found that in rural Ireland if you don't go to mass or play GAA then you are not really part of the community. Everything revolves around this.

If you move to any other country in the World you would normally joint local gathering and try the locl sport to integrate into the community? I would guess you done this when away for those 20 years?


Ireland is no different, depending on the part of the country it could be rugby/soccer/gaelic football or hurling.....


I have moved from "da city" to a small village outside the main city. So we are outsiders. At the moment my kids are doing swimming/GAA/jiu jitsu which is all done in local community and they are making friends....tidy towns is on and always looking for volunteers ect....loads of ways to integrate into the community.....I have yet to get any question about religion or anything like that......

Edgware

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If you move to any other country in the World you would normally joint local gathering and try the locl sport to integrate into the community? I would guess you done this when away for those 20 years?


Ireland is no different, depending on the part of the country it could be rugby/soccer/gaelic football or hurling.....


I have moved from "da city" to a small village outside the main city. So we are outsiders. At the moment my kids are doing swimming/GAA/jiu jitsu which is all done in local community and they are making friends....tidy towns is on and always looking for volunteers ect....loads of ways to integrate into the community.....I have yet to get any question about religion or anything like that......

Correct. As a new comer to a community there probably is an onus on you to make the effort to intergrate. Definetely when the kids get involved in activities it is easier to get to know the locals

Berserker

LuasSimon wrote: »

Plenty Catholics voted yes as well , for many Catholics a lot of the instructions go over their heads and these days many choose what suits them.

Most Irish RCs are actually Protestants when you sit down and look at their beliefs.

LuasSimon wrote: »

Been part of a community and saying a few prayers brings peace of mind to many however misguided it may be . I’d be a lot more concerned about local drug dealers and burgulars than those who say a few prayers together every Saturday or Sunday.

Yep. If those few prayers gives then a bit of relief from the stresses of daily life, what harm is that. I can think of plenty of other releases that people engage in that cause far more damage to the individual and the community.

FFred

If we forget the Tuam babies stuff, the altar boy rapes etc.. Then that's still better than beheadings and stonings.. Right?

Charles Babbage

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you imagine anyone that disagreed with divorce would vote to make it easier?

A person can quite logically vote for a public measure without approving the morality of it.

I might vote for legalising drugs, on the basis that some people will do this anyway, while not in any way thinking it right to use drugs.