Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Water John

Listening to Dispatches you have a Scientologist bringing hard right youth politics, that helped Trump to the UK. The idiot uses the phrase ' change things for a thousand year'. Wonder where we heard that before?

KildareP

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Scathing criticism from Trump of the UK ambassador and Mays handling of Brexit. That's the US added to the list that the UK has pissed off including of course the EU, China and Japan. For once I agree with Trump, what a mess.

You'd almost feel sorry for the UK. Almost...

Beechwoodspark

Panorama on the topic of is Britain ready for no deal just started

reslfj

fash wrote: »

I could see the EU moving to the extent that a permanent CU was incorporated into a hybrid WA agreement - which Labour could sell as their agreement as different and better than May's. Nonsense of course- but there you go.

The WA is a done deal - it must be ratified as is or post 'No Deal' as it now is except for the transition periods.

The future deal will be a very slow negotiation as the UK doesn't even know - both Tory or Labour - what kind of deal they wants.

Both parties seem to be in desperate need for even a few people with any basic knowledge and understanding of trade and trade deals - not to mention any with real practical experience with negotiating trade deals.

Lars

reslfj

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Panorama on the topic of is Britain ready for no deal just started

Will this program be available on the internet (outside the UK too)?

Lars

Spanish Eyes

Do the unions support Corbyn though, that is the BIG question.

Beechwoodspark

reslfj wrote: »

Will this program be available on the internet (outside the UK too)?

Lars

Maybe YouTube.

Beechwoodspark

Anyone watching this?

NI border farmer whinging about his fears for his dairy business but also proudly saying leave leave leave.

Up to the politicians to sort it he says.

bilston

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Scathing criticism from Trump of the UK ambassador and Mays handling of Brexit. That's the US added to the list that the UK has pissed off including of course the EU, China and Japan. For once I agree with Trump, what a mess.

Not sure I agree with your conclusions here.

It seems to me that this is being orchestrated by allies of Trump in the UK so that Trump gets the man he wants as UK ambassador.

The UK ambassador was doing what every diplomat does. Trump didn't like what was being said about him so has taken a hissy fit.

Most politicians in the UK say the wrongdoing was the leak...that is except Brexit Party politicians..

Mr.Nice Guy

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Anyone watching this?

NI border farmer whinging about his fears for his dairy business but also proudly saying leave leave leave.

Up to the politicians to sort it he says.

Talk about shooting oneself in the foot. Doesn't sound like he accepts any responsibility. "They need to get off their backsides and do a deal".

Strazdas

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Anyone watching this?

NI border farmer whinging about his fears for his dairy business but also proudly saying leave leave leave.

Up to the politicians to sort it he says.

The decision should never have been handed over to total idiots like this. You may as well be asking him for his opinion on Euratom or Horizon 2020.

devnull

S.M.B. wrote: »

Maybe I can actually vote for Labour so.

Her statement says she will not stand for Labour again, it doesn't say she won't stand.....

woohoo!!!

bilston wrote: »

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Scathing criticism from Trump of the UK ambassador and Mays handling of Brexit. That's the US added to the list that the UK has pissed off including of course the EU, China and Japan. For once I agree with Trump, what a mess.

Not sure I agree with your conclusions here.

It seems to me that this is being orchestrated by allies of Trump in the UK so that Trump gets the man he wants as UK ambassador.

The UK ambassador was doing what every diplomat does. Trump didn't like what was being said about him so has taken a hissy fit.

Most politicians in the UK say the wrongdoing was the leak...that is except Brexit Party politicians..

The ambassador is doing precisely the job he's being paid to do, I attach no blame to him. The mess over Brexit is where I agree with Trump but for differing reasons to him. It's a new low for UK politics to leak the ambassadors comments and Trump is being Trump for blatantly seeking to oust an ambassador. The timing is no accident and it beggars belief that someone would seek to further humiliate the UK for their own political ends.

Water John

Opinion seems to be, possibly Brexiteers seeking to have one of their own installed in the job.

bilston

Water John wrote: »

Opinion seems to be, possibly Brexiteers seeking to have one of their own installed in the job.

Interesting to note who the two Foreign Secretaries were at the time that these cables were sent. Not that I'm saying it was either Johnson or Hunt...they aren't that stupid...but wasn't it reported last week that May didn't trust Johnson with some classified information when he was Foreign Secretary.

J Mysterio

According to the Guardian, the leak originates from Isabel Oakeshott.

Guardian wrote:

Isabel Oakeshott, the journalist who received the leak, is close to a number of pro-Brexit politicians and co-wrote an account of the EU referendum with Arron Banks, the leave-supporting donor, who is under investigation by the National Crime Agency over the sources of funding for the Leave.EU campaign.

However, Alan Duncan, a Foreign Office minister, told the Commons it was the government’s belief that the leak made its way to Oakeshott “from within” Whitehall, rather than being handed over by foreign agents. He said the Cabinet Office had begun its formal hunt for the mole among current senior politicians, aides and civil servants, but did not at this stage think it was right to involve the police.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/08/donald-trump-we-will-no-longer-deal-with-the-british-ambassador#img-1

That of course follows earlier leaks including that by Gavin Williamson, which cost him his job as defence secretary.

Isabel was just tweeting the other day about how Boris must deliver Brexit 'to save the Tory party'. Completely bizarre of course: it's the UK needs saving, from the Mad Max Wasteland.

https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1145351635830550528

Meanwhile, the 'UK has [already] fallen' according to "Tommy Robinson". He has been on Infowars pleading with Trump to 'look at his case', and give him asylum. You couldn't make it up. Genuinely, you could not make this crap up.

UK Independent wrote:

“I beg Donald Trump, I beg the American government, to look at my case,” he said on Monday. “I need evacuation from this country because dark forces are at work.”

“This is a direct appeal on behalf of my family – we love the United States, I have no future here [in Britain],” he added. “The country has fallen.”

Itssoeasy

Very interesting program on RTÉ Two no called brexit: behind closed doors where a camera crew follow around and get unique access to Guy Verhofstadt. Very interesting stuff so far.

Itssoeasy

Ah so according to a Tory MP the eu will be making Ireland suffer. The UK don’t want to impose a border and the EU will be the ones to impose the border. This documentary isn’t helping the UK look any better.

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1148298496140820480

This whole thing just keeps on getting weirder and weirder...that post-brexit trade deal will be a slaughter.

WomanSkirtFan8

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Ah so according to a Tory MP the eu will be making Ireland suffer. The UK don’t want to impose a border and the EU will be the ones to impose the border. This documentary isn’t helping the UK look any better.

The UK's reputation was already destroyed long ago but yeah, I agree completely with you. It's a little bit too late for the UK now. You reap what you sow. :cool:

maynooth_rules

Watching Panorama on BBC tonight, they were discussing of UK was ready for a no deal brexit. Spoke to a dairy farmer in Fermanagh who sends all his milk to the Republic. He was saying his livelihood is gone if a no deal happens. The fool voted to Leave :rolleyes:. There is a part of me that thinks the UK needs a hard Brexit, it needs a reality check for the daily mail, daily telegraph and bigoted baby boomers. Brexit has become a cult, a religion, in which most leave voters will refuse to accept reality even when it's in front of their face. Michael Gives words from a few years back are proving through, the British are tired of listening to experts.

joeysoap

News on ITV earlier tonight said all foreign office emails were deleted after 3 months. That somebody must have had access and recorded them. Said ambassador was leaving the job later this year anyway and new prime minister would get to appoint his choice anyway.

Peston wouldn’t be surprised if the Russians were behind this, well within their capabilities.

You'd think that in 2019, personal criticism of the government and president in the country you're an ambassador in could be left to secure phonecalls instead of being put in writing. It's not like he was saying anything no one knew already.

The West could do with some lessons on Saving Face and Losing Face.

Peregrinus

Deleted User wrote: »

You'd think that in 2019, personal criticism of the government and president in the country you're an ambassador in could be left to secure phonecalls instead of being put in writing. It's not like he was saying anything no one knew already.

The West could do with some lessons on Saving Face and Losing Face.

What, is the ambassador supposed to have a separate phone call with everbody who might have an interest in his assessment of the host government? Or is everybody involved supposed to clear their diaries for a grand conference call? And do the same for a conference call with every other country to which the UK has accredited an ambassador?

A key part of managing information flows is making sure the information is available to those who need it, when they need it. That's why this stuff is put in writing.

The problem here is not that the ambassador held the views he did - they are absolutely mainstream views. Nor is it a problem that he communicated his views to his government - that's his job. Nor is it a problem that the ambassador's reports to his government are recorded, and are available for subsequent consultation - they wouldn't be much use if they weren't. The problem is that the reports were leaked. That's it.

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

What, is the ambassador supposed to have a separate phone call with everbody who might have an interest in his assessment of the host government? Or is everybody involved supposed to clear their diaries for a grand conference call? And do the same for a conference call with every other country to which the UK has accredited an ambassador?

A key part of managing information flows is making sure the information is available to those who need it, when they need it. That's why this stuff is put in writing.

The problem here is not that the ambassador held the views he did - they are absolutely mainstream views. Nor is it a problem that he communicated his views to his government - that's his job. Nor is it a problem that the ambassador's reports to his government are recorded, and are available for subsequent consultation - they wouldn't be much use if they weren't. The problem is that the reports were leaked. That's it.

Fair enough, but it was hardly an unforeseen problem. I wonder if he were replaced, would the next person be told to be less candid in communications with their personal assessments of commonly held mainstream views that could lead to embarrassments and diplomatic incidents.

Peregrinus

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair enough, but it was hardly an unforeseen problem. I wonder if he were replaced, would the next person be told to be less candid in communications with their personal assessments of commonly held mainstream views that could lead to embarrassments and diplomatic incidents.

No, absolutely not. You want your ambassadors to give you their frank assessment of what they observe in their host country; that's a key part of the job. You can take it for granted that other ambassadors in Washington are sending back similarly ripe reports to their governments, and you can also take it for granted that ambassadors accredited to in London are being frank and unvarnished about the catastrotrainwreck that is the implementation of Brexit by HMG.

The leak of reports like this is obviusly problematic. But I don't think the problem is solved by telling your ambassadors not to send you reports like this. If you really don't want the ambassador to do his job, you could save an awful lot of money by just not sending him out there in the first place.

Call me Al

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fair enough, but it was hardly an unforeseen problem. I wonder if he were replaced, would the next person be told to be less candid in communications with their personal assessments of commonly held mainstream views that could lead to embarrassments and diplomatic incidents.

This type of communication is the personal view and opinion of an ambassador and for that reason it's for the eyes of maybe only a half dozen individuals, so I disagree when you say it was hardly unforeseen.

Peregrinus

Diplomatic cables have been around for a long time, and the protocols around handling them and ensuring their security are very well established. In this instance the immediate impact on the UK/US relationship is of course unfortunate, and the grandstanding opportunity it gives to that wing of the Brexit movement that seeks to prostitute UK sovereignty to the US right wing is to be regretted. But the Foreign Office will be far, far more concerned about the long-term implications of a security breach affecting the confidentiality of diplomatic reports. They'll be asking themselves what other UK diplomatic cables have been read and by whom, and what they can do to assure the future confidentiality of diplomatic reports if they can't trace and plug the lead that occurred on this occasion.

BobbyBobberson

Maynooth Rules has made a point I was just about to make. I was at a conference last week and one person remarked 'Once British politics returns to normal" and they felt things would eventually turn out OK. I just cannot see how anyone can have this viewpoint. Things have been crazy for years and show no sign of improving. In fact in the space of 3 years Brexit has gone from a deal to "The British people gave a mandate for no deal".

This normality is just not going to happen, the only thing that (in my opinion) will set British politics back to relative normality is a hard Brexit. The whole country needs a massive reset and a massive reality check.

Revoke Article 50 and remain = More of what we have had the past few years but even angrier
Soft Brexit = "We were betrayed" and still the circus will go on
EU blinks first = Only adds fuel to the people pushing this mess (I don't think this will happen obviously, just another scenario)

It is only once there is no food on the shelves in Tesco, that the pound has dropped even further, that there are insulin shortages, that food is rotting in the fields and that there are huge job losses across sectors will the 52% wake up and grasp reality.

johnnyskeleton

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

It is only once there is no food on the shelves in Tesco, that the pound has dropped even further, that there are insulin shortages, that food is rotting in the fields and that there are huge job losses across sectors will the 52% wake up and grasp reality.

Im not sure they will. These are the people who vote Brexit Party candidates to the "undemocratic" EU parliament but not to Westminster and complain that the will of the people is not being represented. They also complain about the EU Council (i.e. democratically elected heads of state for each EU Country) undemocratically selecting position holders in EU institutions but dont seem to mind their next Prime Minister for 60m people being chosen by 160,000 odd party members. They like the idea of suspending parliament to secure Brexit, a perfectly democratic way to do things in their eyes, but are staunchly opposed to a further public vote on Brexit as being undemocratic.

When you see all of this, its reasonable to presume that post Brexit, any ills that befall them will be due to the EUs bullying or their own politicians betrayal, or likely both. Bexit is only responsible for good things; bad things are caused by other factors.

Also, I would expect that the immediate consequences will not be as pronounced as that, unless the EU act deliberately to cause such an outcome, whivh I doubt theyd do. It is the medium to long term damage that will be worse, but they wont attribute that to Brexit, for the exact same reasons.