Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Seth Brundle

Hurrache wrote: »

M&S will have more hassle and they don't do any brands that aren't their own do they?

Some or all of their baked in-store bread is supplied by an Irish company. In the UK they're supplied by the UK arm of that company.

Hurrache

Lackadaisical wrote: »

Tesco Ireland's effectively an entirely different operation to Tesco UK. They'll struggle a little with some of their own-brand items, but they're big enough to be able to change souring quite rapidly.

Which is why I brought up the labelling issue. Despite say sourcing some food stuffs from the EU for their own brand goods, the issue that will trip them is the labelling. It's not just an issue with products made in the UK, it will arise with goods made in the EU due to labelling requirements.

I can't remember the exact details as it's a while since I saw documents about it, but basically you see the likes of "Packed in the UK for Tesco UK&I, Llewellyn Garden City", or "Produced in the UK for Tesco UK&I, Llewellyn Garden City". Both of these were fine while in the UK is in the EU, but once that changes they can't sell that product in the EU, even if it's produced in the EU, based on how they currently label products.

They won't change suppliers if there's no issue with sourcing the goods from that factory if it's in the EU as it's "just" a labelling change that's required. So the choice is to either let the current stock of either products already labelled, or the labels their suppliers already have ready to go, run out. The alternative is either Tesco or their supplier take the financial hit of dumping the labelling.

The latter won't happen so there'll be a delay until they actually know what happens with terms of what kind of leave is going to happen and the new labelling is ready to go.

Stop moaning ffs

Hurrache wrote: »

Which is why I brought up the labelling issue. Despite say sourcing some food stuffs from the EU for their own brand goods, the issue that will trip them is the labelling. It's not just an issue with products made in the UK, it will arise with goods made in the EU due to labelling requirements.

They won't change suppliers if there's no issue with sourcing the goods from that factory if it's in the EU, but there will be legal changes to the labelling required. So the choice is to either let the current stock of either products already labelled or the labels their suppliers already have ready to go run out, or either Tesco or their supplier take the financial hit of dumping the labelling.

The latter won't happen so there'll be a delay until they actually know what happens with terms of what kind of leave is going to happen and the new labelling is ready to go.

As far as I’m aware all they have to do is repackage the product here in order to be able to say it’s from here.
It’s been happening with meat and veg for ages.

Spuds from Israel stopped selling here so They get repackaged up north and sold here as Irish. That’s anecdotal but it was only this past year.

There’s huge loopholes in Irish law, as much as we’re screaming about all things food wrt Brexit

Hurrache

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

As far as I’m aware all they have to do is repackage the product here in order to be able to say it’s from here.
It’s been happening with meat and veg for ages.

Spuds from Israel stopped selling here so They get repackaged up north and sold here as Irish. That’s anecdotal but it was only this past year.

There’s huge loopholes in Irish law, as much as we’re screaming about all things food wrt Brexit

Yes, but what happens the current labels? This is my point, it's the simple things that get you. They're not going to employ a bunch of people to remove the current labels and send them back from relabelling, nor are they going to compensate the factories to dump the massive amount of labelling they already have waiting to go and buy a bunch of new ones, not yet knowing what's going to happen.

So the obvious thing that will happen is they'll just wait for the existing labels to be all used up in the packaging plants and for the products to be sold in the UK before they have their new labelling ready to go.

The FSAI have already been quite active in dealing with retailers and suppliers on this, https://www.fsai.ie/food_businesses/brexit.html
https://www.fsai.ie/food_businesses/brexit/labelling.html

Do prepacked foods have to provide an EU address?
Yes. The rules regarding the labelling of food within the EU are set out in Regulation (EU) No. 1169/2011 on the provision of food information to consumers. This legislation specifies that the provision of the name and EU address of the food business operator responsible for the food within the EU is obligatory. This name and address can be either:

the operator in the EU under whose name or business name the food is marketed or
if that operator is not established in the EU, the name and address of the importer into the EU market must be indicated on the label.
In the case of a ‘no deal Brexit’ the UK will immediately upon leaving be considered a ‘third country’ under EU legislation and therefore a UK address alone will not be sufficient. Food placed on the EU market must have an EU contact address.
.....
.....
Will overlay stickers be permitted on a temporary basis to amend labels?
The use of overlay stickers on a temporary basis would be permitted on prepacked food for a short time frame whilst awaiting new packaging. The overlay stickers should not be easy to remove and traceability of the product must be maintained. The use of such stickers must ensure that food information provided on a label is in compliance with EU food law in particular that all mandatory information is easily visible, clearly legible and, where appropriate, indelible. Mandatory information cannot be hidden or obscured. The overlay stickers should not be easy to remove.

In the examples I gave, Tesco for example uses their UK contact address on their labelling.

Stop moaning ffs

Hurrache wrote: »

Yes, but what happens the current labels? This is my point, it's the simple things that get you. They're not going to employee a bunch of people to remove the current labels and send them back from relabelling, nor are they going to compensate the factories to dump the massive amount of labelling they already have waiting to go and buy a bunch of new ones, not yet knowing what's going to happen.

So the obvious thing that will happen is they'll just wait for the existing labels to be all used up in the packaging plants and for the products to be sold in the UK before they have their new labelling ready to go.

This is the minutiae stuff that gets overlooked. But you can bet your last euro the companies involved especially the smaller ones in border regions are already on a workaround!
Heard something about the food supply chain between Ireland and Britain. Certain meats can cross the Irish Sea up to three times before it ends up on shelves. (Think that was chicken in particular?)
Leaves here goes to uk for processing. Comes back for coating , goes back over for packaging then back here for sale.

Chips and potato products same thing. This was on radio one I think. Cant remember the show but it was frightening given how tied into them and us we are. That all might be about to go

Professor Moriarty

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It is perceived as antisemitic because it is portrayed as antisemitic day-in day-out by the clique who run the UK press, when they aren't running anonymous stories reporting "high ranked" civil servants doubting Corbyn's fitness to serve on health grounds.


It is 100% grade A propaganda, and even the Guardian, supposedly the major left wing newspaper, is right at the front of it.


Guess where the editor of the Guardian went to University?

And yet Corbyn's Labour has lost three peers today. That's not media bias. That's a fact. Corbyn's Labour tried to gag ex staff from speaking about antisemitism in Labour by threatening legal action. That's not media bias. That's a fact. If Labour were a PLC the shareholders would have dumped him two years ago for gross mismanagement.

The Guardian is very much pro Labour. The fact that it thinks Corbyn's race is run doesn't mean anything other than they know what reality is. The editor's parents were teachers. What am I to make of that? What's the fact that someone goes to Oxford got to do with anything? I think Corbyn is a waste of time and I didn't go to Oxford...

MrMusician18

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It is perceived as antisemitic because it is portrayed as antisemitic day-in day-out by the clique who run the UK press, when they aren't running anonymous stories reporting "high ranked" civil servants doubting Corbyn's fitness to serve on health grounds.


It is 100% grade A propaganda, and even the Guardian, supposedly the major left wing newspaper, is right at the front of it.


Guess where the editor of the Guardian went to University?

It's absolutely propaganda, because if anti sematism was a real issue, where were the likes of the guardian investigating it until Corbyn got the leadership? Isn't Miliband of Jewish heritage?

They've been flinging mud at him and this is the only thing that's kinda stuck (since they've been relentlessly pushing it). If someone like Starmer gets the leadership, watch how the antisemitism problem will melt away without anything real being done.

Timberrrrrrrr

It will be interesting to see the DUP's take on this

MP's have voted to extend SSM to Northern Ireland and will later vote on abortion rights.



https://f7td5.app.goo.gl/NBrMz

MPs have voted resoundingly to extend same-sex marriage to Northern Ireland, a plan the government has said it will honour despite ministerial doubts.

The Commons voted 383 to 73 to pass the amendment to a largely technical bill on the stalled Northern Ireland assembly, tabled by the Labour MP Conor McGinn, a longstanding campaigner for equal marriage in Northern Ireland.

MPs will vote later on another amendment to the bill to extend abortion rights to Northern Ireland, tabled by the Labour MP Stella Creasy.

The government has long argued that both issues are devolved matters and should not be imposed on Northern Ireland by Westminster. But McGinn and Creasy say the fact the assembly and executive have been suspended since January 2017 amid political deadlock means action must be taken.

Professor Moriarty

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

It will be interesting to see the DUP's take on this

MP's have voted to extend SSM to Northern Ireland and will later vote on abortion rights.



https://f7td5.app.goo.gl/NBrMz

I'm assuming they voted against.

Stop moaning ffs

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

It will be interesting to see the DUP's take on this

MP's have voted to extend SSM to Northern Ireland and will later vote on abortion rights.



https://f7td5.app.goo.gl/NBrMz

This is amazing

Professor Moriarty

Abortion legislation also passed.

J Mysterio

It has passed in Westminster.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/same-sex-marriage-coming-to-north-if-new-stormont-executive-not-formed-by-october-21st-1.3951640

Strange to see the UK parliament changing NI Law, not something i'm in favour of really, but in this circumstance, it's a good thing.
The amendment was tabled by Conor McGinn, who is from Armagh. His mother worked in the NHS, his father was a Sinn Fein councillor.
Despite how it was done, good for equality in NI and I'm sure the DUP will be furious - another reason to be happy with it.

BluePlanet

Yahoo claiming: Food shortages and job losses - Ireland warns of 'dire' consequences of no-deal Brexit

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ireland-warns-dire-consequences-no-deal-brexit-153828329.html

But i saw nothing in the article about food shortages, nor in the report..

L1011

DUP would have to be seen to withdraw support after that date if not immediately to avoid throwing tens of thousands of hard-line votes to Jim Allister. And with FPTP for Westminster that's dangerous

jm08

I listened to the Commons debate on SSM and Abortion. Conor McGinn Labour MP originally from NI did a very good job on how it is worded in that if Stormont isn't back before 31st October the two Bills come into operation. There was a free vote and it was something like 300+ v. 70 for SSM and 300 or so v. 90 for abortion.


The DUP are between a rock and a hard place on this one - get back into Stormont or HoC will sort out the legislation. One of the DUP MPs said he had a couple of hundred emails rejecting abortion in NI over the last few days - with 60 or 70% from women.

J Mysterio

So odd how international diplomacy between the UK and US is now conducted through Twitter.
Jeremy Hunt is now addressing Trump directly on Twitter - saying Ambassador stays if he is PM.

I was just thinking RE: Kuennsberg earlier - she should really be the BBC Social Media expert, she seems to be on Twitter 24/7 - does it leave any time for anything else? She's like a gossip queen, provides very shallow analysis.

Stop moaning ffs

How does this work?

And how do the DUP now come out and say they don’t respect and will not allow Westminster to implement these decisions on them?

Brexit just got even more soap opera bizarre

Headshot

Anything that upsets DUP is good in my book.

Would love to see the look Foster's face when Westminster voted for abortion and SSM in NI

KildareP

Is this the throw the DUP under the bus test?

If they do in fact object to aligning themselves completely to the UK on laws re: SSM, abortion, then an NI-only backstop is not actually an issue?

Lackadaisical

Hurrache wrote: »

Which is why I brought up the labelling issue. Despite say sourcing some food stuffs from the EU for their own brand goods, the issue that will trip them is the labelling. It's not just an issue with products made in the UK, it will arise with goods made in the EU due to labelling requirements.
.

Tesco will be easily able to separate Tesco Ireland into a stand alone company - there is some crossover into their UK operations, but it's not all that significant. It could mean quite a few changes though.

You'll definitely see a few changes on shelves in Irish supermarkets though and probably a lot of like-for-like replacement with continental products.

I don't think any of the supermarkets are going to be able to just apply a "Brexit Tax" and hike prices to cover any tariffing, as they'll be wiped out by competitors. It's much more aggressive market than it was 20+ years ago, largely due to the arrival of Lidl and Aldi. We're also not all that exposed to UK chains in food / drink, other than Tesco and I wouldn't really call M&S 'main stream'.

You'll have other issues though like for example, it wouldn't be reasonable to continue to supply electrical appliances through UK wholesalers to Ireland. They'll have to come from the continent and that could potentially mean a lot of adaptors or eventually change to Schuko sockets. Very few appliances are actually made in the UK, so it's not that big a deal, but Ireland's a small market and we've a weird plug/socket system. So, that may ultimately have to just make way for a CEE 7 standard - not that big a deal though.

Lots of issues for things like building materials and supplies like that that conform to BS standards which were accepted here. It's less of an issue these days than it might have been decades ago because we've the whole continental market and harmonisation, but there are a few odd ones like plugs, sockets, light switches and the big one : cars which are highly regulated at an EU level.

I'd say tbh retail will be only a minor glitch in comparison to cars.

Other than cars though (the whole right hand drive issue), harmonising with the continent for most things would probably mean access to more products and better prices in the medium term.

Stop moaning ffs

KildareP wrote: »

Is this the throw the DUP under the bus test?

If they do in fact object to aligning themselves completely to the UK on laws re: SSM, abortion, then an NI-only backstop is not actually an issue?

The DUPs British identity is somehow threatened by cows going back and forth across the Irish Sea.

That’s what you’re dealing with here.

It does feel like the first swing at throwing them under the bus though. And that’s great.

Headshot

Guys what channel is the Conservative leaders debate on tonight?

L1011

Iceland are I believe quite a bit larger in market share than M&S in ROI and will be in awful trouble due to nearly solely selling UK products.

Also they are sometimes the only discount supermarket in an area as they often use smaller town centre units that people can walk to and arrange a van to drop the food back - so don't be surprised to hear some hard luck stories.

The sockets thing mentioned above is a good point that has come up before. If there's a legislative change needed to allow Schuko and Europlug plugs on devices here we should probably rush it through and let people buy adapters or socket strips with a BS plug and Schuko sockets

Professor Moriarty

J Mysterio wrote: »

So odd how international diplomacy between the UK and US is now conducted through Twitter.
Jeremy Hunt is now addressing Trump directly on Twitter - saying Ambassador stays if he is PM.

I was just thinking RE: Kuennsberg earlier - she should really be the BBC Social Media expert, she seems to be on Twitter 24/7 - does it leave any time for anything else? She's like a gossip queen, provides very shallow analysis.

He's due to retire in January anyway.

Lackadaisical

L1011 wrote: »

Iceland are I believe quite a bit larger in market share than M&S in ROI and will be in awful trouble due to nearly solely selling UK products.

Also they are sometimes the only discount supermarket in an area as they often use smaller town centre units that people can walk to and arrange a van to drop the food back - so don't be surprised to hear some hard luck stories.

They'll be handy 24 stores for someone else then if they aren't able to figure out how to do business, I guarantee you someone else will. They have about 50+ stores in the EU and EEA (Portugal mostly)

Itssoeasy

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I'm assuming they voted against.

Fair assumption and so did 63 other MPs given the DUP have 10 MPs. I honestly don't know how the DUP can talk about the "precious union" and not have things like SSM and access to abortion in northern ireland. Maybe I've become immune to the utter logic vacuum they operate in.

L1011

Lackadaisical wrote: »

They'll be handy 24 stores for someone else then if they aren't able to figure out how to do business, I guarantee you someone else will. They have about 50+ stores in the EU and EEA (Portugal mostly)

In a few cases their stores were former, well, Iceland stores that stayed empty for years after they pulled out previously! Came back when the economy went down badly presumably seeing a market

Zubeneschamali

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What's the fact that someone goes to Oxford got to do with anything?

It's not that someone went to Oxford.


It's that everyone who's anyone went to Oxford, and Corbyn didn't go to University at all. So he's unelectable.


And if they say it often enough, even people like you who didn't go to Oxford start believing it.

jm08

I've been keeping an eye on the supermarket shelves, particularly Tesco and a lot of their own brand stuff that was British is now Irish or EU (butter, cheese, yougourt etc). I notice a pizza that I used get from Aldi is now made in Ireland with EU sourced Pork, so they are well ahead of the game in changing their suppliers

Itssoeasy

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It's not that someone went to Oxford.


It's that everyone who's anyone went to Oxford, and Corbyn didn't go to University at all. So he's unelectable.


And if they say it often enough, even people like you who didn't go to Oxford start believing it.

The fact he didn't go to third level is the least of Corbyn's problems given the carry on within the labour party as a whole.