Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Capt'n Midnight

Boris following the applause.

It's like Hunt is getting the tricky questions so Boris can decide which way to jump based on audience reactions.

Headshot

How the **** is this man going to be a leader of a country.

he makes Trump actually look some what competent which is quite telling

J Mysterio

I'd say Hunt won that comedy show hands down. How bizarre that they're all laughing and joking around while the country is ready to blow.

Capt'n Midnight

"Hamster wheel of doom"

wow.

Aidric

Johnson on Hunt: "I greatly admire his ability to change his mind". Probably the most sincere thing he has said in the last hour and a 'quality' he probably genuinely admires. :rolleyes:

jimmycrackcorm

jm08 wrote: »

I've been keeping an eye on the supermarket shelves, particularly Tesco and a lot of their own brand stuff that was British is now Irish or EU (butter, cheese, yougourt etc). I notice a pizza that I used get from Aldi is now made in Ireland with EU sourced Pork, so they are well ahead of the game in changing their suppliers

I'm just so curious to know how M&S will do in Ireland post BREXIT. Not only are they so expensive anyway but their food range is probably 100% British.
I would dread to be an employee here

Shelga

Complete waste of an hour, although anyone who can publicly support Johnson in general, and especially after that display, is an embarrassment.

Stop moaning ffs

Britain is utterly fu cked

That much is a certainty

bilston

Johnson's complete non answer on the questions regarding Kim Darroch is unbelievable. And even then he got a round of applause. I don't get it. How does he get away with it. In fact his answer was to ask Hunt whether he would keep Darroch in place after his retirement. I guess Johnson isn't familiar with the idea of retirement...

jimmycrackcorm

Enzokk wrote: »

It has been answered already but this will make for fascinating viewing on what the DUP will actually do now. They can stop it, by having Stormont back in session. But to do that you know SF will extract every little thing they can. They can refuse support for the Tories, but then they lose their power. Seems like they have lost their power they have and will either have to cede at Stormont or allow SSM and abortion in Northern Ireland.

It just goes to show that when it comes to the DUP that unionism is only a one way street and the traffic direction is against them.

J Mysterio

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Boris following the applause.

It's like Hunt is getting the tricky questions so Boris can decide which way to jump based on audience reactions.

He would be great in panto. Basically, he's a wonderful man for great dinner speeches, full of innuendo, wink wink nudge nudges and guffaw-y belly laughes.

Elmar Brok said recently that Johnson was great company over a whiskey and a cigar, but that didnt mean he was fit to be PM. The man is an entertainer, Mayor of London should have been the pinnacle for him.

FrancieBrady

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

It just goes to show that when it comes to the DUP that unionism is only a one way street and the traffic direction is against them.

There will be many books written on how this all came to pass. The DUP didn't learn the crucial lesson that history teaches 'move with the times or get moved out of the way'.

How many cul de sacs must you take to learn.

jimmycrackcorm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

It seems the DUP are threatening to not continue the confidence and supply agreement with the new PM. I've been looking on twitter at the many trending topics on the votes today, and obviously a lot of people who have campaigned on one or both of the issues are understandably happy. I feel uneasy when people are tweeting it's a done deal on both issues. Do they not understand that the DUP will anything they can to stop this happening ?

That would be a bonus. Not only SSM, and abortion but a customs border in the Irish sea so the mainland didn't have to have a backstop

FartyBlartFast

Enzokk wrote: »

Shades of Trump with Johnson, in that he won elections when nobody thought he would.

Boris has been the strong, strong favourite since the moment May resigned?

tuxy

FartyBlartFast wrote: »

Boris has been the strong, strong favourite since the moment May resigned?

He's been the strong favourite since long before that too.

Capt'n Midnight

FartyBlartFast wrote: »

Boris has been the strong, strong favourite since the moment May resigned?

He was the favourite when Cameron resigned back in 2016 , right up until Grove who was supposedly runing his campaign backstabbed him

https://www.ft.com/content/26b55cfa-3eb5-11e6-8716-a4a71e8140b0

ominous leaking of an email on ... written by Mr Gove’s wife Sarah Vine, .. in which she raised questions about Mr Johnson’s character and his credibility in the party, as well as with press baron Rupert Murdoch and Daily Mail editor Paul Dacre.

Lackadaisical

Sam Russell wrote: »

The problem is not just plugs.

There is a very different philosophy on wiring.

The Germans have a fuse for every plug (generally 16 amp). The French prefer a two pin no-earth for low loads and a 3 pin earthed plug for heavy loads. However they wire as the Germans,

The UK believe in a ring main with diversification so load is shared on both sides of the ring with the plug carrying a fuse (generally 13 amp for the plug and 30 amp for the ring). This is considered dangerous by both the French and Germans.

We cannot just change our plugs and sockets for continental ones because they are not consistent with our wiring. Only Brazil uses the new EU standard three pin plug.

Without totally derailing the thread into a debate on plugs and sockets, there are no major technical issues with this at all.

Ireland currently allows ring circuits, but doesn't actually use them nearly as commonly as is the case in the UK where they're basically the norm. There tends to be a lot of jumping up and down about the differences, largely from UK commentators on geeky forums.

The present day European systems are extremely standardised, safe (e.g. can have mandatory shutters and all of that), and do not have umpteen different types of sockets. There's a lot of confusion when people refer to obsolete installations in France and so on - non-earthed sockets are not permitted in new French installations.

1. Ireland's electrical systems originated in German DIN standards, including 220V/380V supplies, Siemens Diazed (bottle shaped) fuses and all of that back in the day. A very large % of our installations continue to use radial circuits, not rings. Schuko sockets were once used here and the standard CEE 7/IV, is still actually referenced in Irish standards.

We don't use UK wiring regulations at the moment and never have. Irish wiring regulations may have some similarities but they are an entirely different wiring code to the UK and have very significant differences around quite a few technical issues. So it's not like we would be breaking away from a UK standard anyway.

2. Modern CEE 7 standards (which include the French and German socket outlets) have a standardised 16amp earthed socket. CEE 7/7 (earthed 16 amp e.g. for a washing machine), CEE 7/17 (non-earthed plug e.g. for a high power double-insulated appliance like a vacuum cleaner), or CEE 7/16 the small flat, 2.5 amp plug which you will find on things like mobile phone chargers or electronics. There are no special sockets for different ratings of plugs. It just means you don't need to have an enormous earthed plug on desk lamp or portable radio, if it doesn't need one.

Also they use radials which may have multiple sockets on a single circuit e.g. serving one room, much like we do in a lot of installations.

3. Irish wiring has been harmonised towards CEN and IEC standards, so there's relatively little difference between what we do and what France or Germany does, other than the plugs and sockets.

4. If we were to change, we would simply phase out BS1363 sockets over a couple of decades and ensure a supply of high quality adaptors in the mean time. You'd probably have to rollout an enforceable standard for adaptors as an IS number.

It would also be entirely possible to have special sockets that fit BS1363 boxes with a local 13amp fuse for use on old rings - that would cover them for local fusing on rings without any issue. It's basically how you connect any industrial CEEform socket to a ring.

The proposed plug you're mentioning that's used in Brazil and South Africa fell off the agenda entirely and effectively Schuko has become the de facto EU standard. It was left as an orphaned IEC standard that nobody in Europe uses, but is open to anyone who wants to adopt it. If we were standardising it would be to the system used in the vast majority of EU countries (and much of the 230V world e.g. South Korea etc) i.e. the Schuko system CEE 7/4. There would be absolutely no point in adopting some technical standard that nobody uses.

We are going to have a significant issue if the UK drifts off into its own standards as products made there / made for the UK market will not necessarily comply with future European standards and might be subject to tariffs and so on.

I would make a lot of sense to ditch the weird standards and just go with something sensible.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that we've a bunch of UK standards that were de facto adopted here and really should be phased out if the UK's no longer going to be in the EU as it would not make any sense to have non-EU standards applied within the EU, particularly with the on-going efforts to harmonise everything across the single market.

It applies to a lot of building materials and so on. We simply won't be able to just refer to BS XXXX anymore. Without harmonisation, they'll be as relevant as Australian or Chinese standards.

There are a lot of issues around technical standards that are going to become really problematic as we are not in the 1960s and are legally required to apply EU recognised standards. There's no possibility of going back to the old days and just adopting UK regulations because they're close by, as we are fully part of the EU now.

I really think people are underestimating just how serious some of this stuff could be if it's not adequately prepared for.

There are also a lot of EU directives which have been adopted into Irish law by basically just adopting whatever interpretation the UK had made. This tends to apply to vast arrays of quite boring, technical stuff that is extremely non controversial, but it means we are going to have to stand on our own two feet a lot more and start working more with continental partners like the Benelux etc across a very wide range of technical and legal issues.

There's a vast amount of stuff that will be quite seriously impacted by some of this and it would just be an enormous mistake to assume that because we were able to do things by just unofficially copying UK approaches in the pre-single market days, that we could continue to do that into the future as a full EU member. It just won't work.

Enzokk

FartyBlartFast wrote: »

Boris has been the strong, strong favourite since the moment May resigned?

He was mentioning his Mayoral campaigns and the Brexit referendum, but actually in all of those he is not quite right. He may have been behind in the 2008 Mayoral Election at the start but he was ahead in most polls by the end of it. With Brexit it was the same, it was close from the start and I think a lot of people ignored the polls that told them Brexit would happen because no-one wanted to believe it.

My comment was that he sounded so much like Trump when he made the statement, it was like it was pulled from one of Trump's speeches which is frightening.

Professor Moriarty

Enzokk wrote: »

He was mentioning his Mayoral campaigns and the Brexit referendum, but actually in all of those he is not quite right. He may have been behind in the 2008 Mayoral Election at the start but he was ahead in most polls by the end of it. With Brexit it was the same, it was close from the start and I think a lot of people ignored the polls that told them Brexit would happen because no-one wanted to believe it.

My comment was that he sounded so much like Trump when he made the statement, it was like it was pulled from one of Trump's speeches which is frightening.

He's a bona fide populist. The right choice from a Tory perspective as he needs to be more populist than Trump's bestie Nigel.

FartyBlartFast

Enzokk wrote: »

FartyBlartFast wrote: »

Boris has been the strong, strong favourite since the moment May resigned?

He was mentioning his Mayoral campaigns and the Brexit referendum, but actually in all of those he is not quite right. He may have been behind in the 2008 Mayoral Election at the start but he was ahead in most polls by the end of it. With Brexit it was the same, it was close from the start and I think a lot of people ignored the polls that told them Brexit would happen because no-one wanted to believe it.

My comment was that he sounded so much like Trump when he made the statement, it was like it was pulled from one of Trump's speeches which is frightening.

Oh ok, I am not watching so only took your comment on face value (e.g. That nobody expected Boris to win this leadership race,hence my confusion!)

BluePlanet

Lackadaisical wrote: »

Anyway, all I'm saying is that we've a bunch of UK standards that were de facto adopted here and really should be phased out if the UK's no longer going to be in the EU as it would not make any sense to have non-EU standards applied within the EU, particularly with the on-going efforts to harmonise everything across the single market.

THIS

Long view -> we adopt to driving on the right.

FrancieBrady

BluePlanet wrote: »

THIS

Long view -> we adopt to driving on the right.

Phase it in, trucks and buses first.

tuxy

Lackadaisical

I suspect we're going to need a derogation on cars if there's nothing available to EU specs in right-hand-drive. The recent trade deal with Japan may ultimately help in that regard. Changing to left-hand-drive in Ireland is just not practical at this stage due to the extent of infrastructural rollout and you'd have issues with land borders.

Whatever about minor technical standards like plugs, sockets, bricks, roof tiles and so on, we're not going to be able to do much about cars and they are one product that is subject to a huge array of regulations.

BluePlanet

Interesting gambit by Hunt, appearing to stand up to the Trump bully:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/09/uk/jeremy-hunt-trump-intl-gbr/index.html

Lackadaisical

BluePlanet wrote: »

Interesting gambit by Hunt, appearing to stand up to the Trump bully:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/09/uk/jeremy-hunt-trump-intl-gbr/index.html

You also have to remember that the psychology behind Brexit i.e. nationalism would also apply here. Whatever about not wanting to be part of the EU, they absolutely do not want to end up as a puppet state being openly humiliated by the US president or anyone else for that matter.

I don't really know how that's going to play out with the average Daily Express reading 'Little Englander' type person, but I would imagine they'd be utterly furious about being told what to do by any outside entity.

Trump has made the UK look extremely weak and grovelling by calling the ambassador out like this and they really don't have much option other than to bend to his wishes as they are desperate for a trade deal, and he knows that.

It fairly neatly illustrates why mid-sized and small-sized European countries are only powerful as a block. Once they go it alone, they're very much small fish in a big pond, even the biggest of them.

Lackadaisical

Lackadaisical wrote: »

You also have to remember that the psychology behind Brexit i.e. nationalism would also apply here.
.

Sometimes it's worth remembering that if you replace the nationality; British with Irish, the "opposition"; EU with British and the year; 2016 with 1916, it can be seen that history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.
For those that do not understand the (Brexiteer) British attitude towards the EU, they may get an inkling if they think about it in this way.

Looks like some car manufacturers have decided to remain in the UK after all.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48921455
BMW has given a boost to the UK car industry by confirming that the production of its new electric Mini will start in Cowley in November.
Deliveries of the brand's first fully electric car will start in March 2020.
Earlier this year, a BMW board member said the company would have to consider moving car production out of the UK if there was a no-deal Brexit.
But David George, head of Mini UK, told the BBC the UK was firmly in the company's plans going forward.

Lackadaisical

Deleted User wrote: »

Sometimes it's worth remembering that if you replace the nationality; British with Irish, the "opposition"; EU with British and the year; 2016 with 1916, it can be seen that history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.
For those that do not understand the (Brexiteer) British attitude towards the EU, they may get an inkling if they think about it in this way.

The huge difference though is they're 100% welcome to leave anytime they wish. The EU simply can't wave a magic wand and solve Northern Ireland or any of the other consequences of Brexit just because the UK voted for it.

Also the comparison with the situation in 1916 or the US Revolution is somewhat ludicrous. All the EU has basically asked is the UK comes up with a smooth exit plan.

The UK responded to any territory leaving with military action. It's like trying to compare leaving the mafia and cancelling your mobile phone contract.

The EU hasn't driven tanks into stadiums, shelled or burnt down cities had the parliament jailed and executed. The UK did ALL of the above in the aftermath of our attempts to exit.

Lackadaisical

Lackadaisical wrote: »

The huge difference though is they're 100% welcome to leave anytime they wish. The EU simply can't wave a magic wand and solve Northern Ireland or any of the other consequences of Brexit just because the UK voted for it.

Also the comparison with the situation in 1916 or the US Revolution is somewhat ludicrous. All the EU has basically asked is the UK comes up with a smooth exit plan.

The UK responded to any territory leaving with military action. It's like trying to compare leaving the mafia and cancelling your mobile phone contract.

Maybe so, but try telling that to the Brexiteers.