Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

A Dub in Glasgo

eire4 wrote: »

Your probably right they will continue to refuse in the short term. But if and when brexit actually does come to pass they will only be delaying the inevitable.

Hot off the press

https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1133712135517822976


Davidson has been lobbying all the Tory leader hopefuls to commit to not allowing Scotland a referendum

BonnieSituation

eagle eye wrote: »

This is the UK not Ireland. You don't get another referendum because some people want one. The European elections didn't show that the majority want to stay.

You always have referenda because people want them.

BonnieSituation

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Hot off the press

https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1133712135517822976


Davidson has been lobbying all the Tory leader hopefuls to commit to not allowing Scotland a referendum

Well I'm sure the people of Scotland will take onboard what they are being told by a Tory government.

The incompetence on display here is breathtaking.

The SNP won't believe their luck. Roof has just shown herself up completely.

Sam Russell

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Hot off the press

https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1133712135517822976


Davidson has been lobbying all the Tory leader hopefuls to commit to not allowing Scotland a referendum

Did they not say at the time if Indyref one, that a vote for Independence was a vote to leave the EU? Now it appears to be the other way.

Did Cameron not promise a lot of extra powers for the Scottish Parliament that never happened? Of course, once the vote was one, they forgot about the promises.

It is 5 years since the last vote, so I suppose it is too early for a change of mind because, despite all of the above, democracy and the people have spoken, etc etc etc.

Isn't Scotland where they have the Independent Nuclear Deterent? I wonder how that would go if they did leave the UK?

devnull

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Hot off the presshttps://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1133712135517822976

So people stated their views in 2014 so should not be allowed to have another vote 5 years later because they've already had one in the past and therefore must never hold one again.

People should not be allowed to have another referendum on the European Union Membership either because they already had one and a democracy is not allowed to change it's mind?

Yet the very same person making those quotes had no problem with supporting the Tories calling a general election on a whim because they didn't like the way people voted before.

Absolute hypocrites, the lot of them.

Stop moaning ffs

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Hot off the press

https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1133712135517822976


Davidson has been lobbying all the Tory leader hopefuls to commit to not allowing Scotland a referendum

That will go down like a ton of bricks in Scotland.
He’s just hardened very many soft/indifferent on independence

BonnieSituation

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

That will go down like a ton of bricks in Scotland.
He’s just hardened very many soft/indifferent on independence

It's so tone deaf. Amazingly so.

Stop moaning ffs

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's so tone deaf. Amazingly so.

I’m floored by the arrogance of it. And sickened by the hypocrisy.
It’s a massive boost for indyref. Huge boost for it.
How any Scot can not see this as ‘sit down shut up know your place’ is beyond me. And there seems to be many.
You can’t hold a country hostage. It’s meant to be a union. Clearly the English imperialist infection has worsened deeply

Danzy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It took him long enough!

How long have we known that the Labour membership are overwhelmingly in favour of a People's Vote now? Many months by my reckoning.

I think you're right to be skeptical if not outright cynical. The only way this works at all is if he actually sticks to it and pressures May's successor. An election isn't on the horizon as far as I can tell.

I'll wait and see. He has form for prevaricating.

The Working Class part of Labour's base was a corner stone of leave though.

If Labour go all remain then they will lose much of its working Class heartlands, the relationship is very tenuous as it is.

BonnieSituation

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I’m floored by the arrogance of it. And sickened by the hypocrisy.
It’s a massive boost for indyref. Huge boost for it.
How any Scot can not see this as ‘sit down shut up know your place’ is beyond me. And there seems to be many.
You can’t hold a country hostage. It’s meant to be a union. Clearly the English imperialist infection has worsened deeply

I'm sure Nicola's jaw just hit the floor in Bute House. The SNP have just got handed a present.

Now, all the others have to row in behind Javid and make things worse or go Against Javid and give the SNP what they want.

It's amazing.

(Javid showed his political inability and naivety over the Begum case. He's brutal.)

L1011

Javid seems to forget that ridiculous boosterism after the referendum led to the Tories getting 1 MP in Scotland shortly after it.

Stop moaning ffs

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I'm sure Nicola's jaw just hit the floor in Bute House. The SNP have just got handed a present.

Now, all the others have to row in behind Javid and make things worse or go Against Javid and give the SNP what they want.

It's amazing.

(Javid showed his political inability and naivety over the Begum case. He's brutal.)

I’ll try find the article but Cleverly at least has echoed his statement and I think a few others.


Please please let there be a clip of any of these PM contenders saying ‘we must respect the will of the people’


There’s shooting yourself in the foot then there’s this.

If any of these had any sense they would have said nothing whatsoever on the matter until they were confirmed.

Even Boris isn’t this stupid.

CelticRambler

Laois_Man wrote: »

I am utterly confused that the party who wants "No Deal" is dying to be involved in the negotiations of the deal they don't want - even if we ignore the small fact that there are no negotiations pending!

He also seems to think that the UK has just had a general election. Nope, you've been elected to the European Parliament, mate, to represent Britain's interests in future policy-making. Brexit negotiations are the remit of Westminster, nothing to do with English MEPs ... :rolleyes:

Tell me how

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I’ll try find the article but Cleverly at least has echoed his statement and I think a few others.


Please please let there be a clip of any of these PM contenders saying ‘we must respect the will of the people’


There’s shooting yourself in the foot then there’s this.

If any of these had any sense they would have said nothing whatsoever on the matter until they were confirmed.

Even Boris isn’t this stupid.

If someone had told you the point in bold 3 years ago would be a statement from summer 2019, you'd have thought some MP walked in to a glass door or something but to know what exactly it means in the context of everything that has gone could never have been imagined.

I spent 20 minutes reading the comments to Javid's tweet and honestly it is mind-boggling to consider how he thought that that would play well. The sentiment of it could have been communicated to those he wanted to reach out in any number of ways but to use the words "I won't allow a second referendum" is just ticking off so many people you'd wonder just what exactly do they think of the electorate.

The ratio of comments to likes on his tweet (obviously empirical evidence) is running at 1.8:1 which is a quick reference of how stupid it was.

A Dub in Glasgo

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I'm sure Nicola's jaw just hit the floor in Bute House. The SNP have just got handed a present.

Now, all the others have to row in behind Javid and make things worse or go Against Javid and give the SNP what they want.

It's amazing.

(Javid showed his political inability and naivety over the Begum case. He's brutal.)

I wonder if any of the media will mention it when they say 'our precious union'?

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1133726120556281856

BonnieSituation

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I wonder if any of the media will mention it when they say 'our precious union'?

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1133726120556281856

Look how good that response is.

I mean, there's no meat on the bones to pick at or drill a hole into.

PWNED!

BonnieSituation

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I wonder if any of the media will mention it when they say 'our precious union'?

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1133726120556281856

Just read through a hape of this tweets replying to him.

I've been grinning for the last couple of hours at just ho stupid this all is.

Sturgeon's announcement this morning had practically been buried by most news outlets by the time he responded.

I'm genuinely laughing here as I type this.

Maria Bailey eat your heart out.

A Dub in Glasgo

Christy42 wrote: »

He is not wrong, they are a front. I have no idea why people are being so PC describing them.

The Brexit Party have now threatened to sue SNP MEP Smith for Defamation regarding that clip

https://twitter.com/thetimesscot/status/1133772362707607553

Silent Running

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The Brexit Party have now threatened to sue SNP MEP Smith for Defamation regarding that clip

https://twitter.com/thetimesscot/status/1133772362707607553

It's one thing threatening to sue. Quite another thing bringing it to court to have all of the dirty washing aired in public.

Nody

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I’ll try find the article but Cleverly at least has echoed his statement and I think a few others.


Please please let there be a clip of any of these PM contenders saying ‘we must respect the will of the people’


There’s shooting yourself in the foot then there’s this.

If any of these had any sense they would have said nothing whatsoever on the matter until they were confirmed.

Even Boris isn’t this stupid.

Honesly I'm not sure I'd agree. Look at this purely from a Tory wannabie PM point of view. Scottland has minimal Tory card carrying voters (and the few that exist are likely pro union anyway) and chances are most if not all seats will be lost in the next GE anyway. Hence Scottland as a region politically is useless to them in terms of voter base and since they can't have a independence vote without the PMs approval (which they will never get from them) they are a perfect target to attack to bolster your English superiority and nationalism points with your voter base. It's basically what they wish (and some appear to still think think) was Ireland's position during the the EU negotiations.

Enzokk

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The Brexit Party have now threatened to sue SNP MEP Smith for Defamation regarding that clip

https://twitter.com/thetimesscot/status/1133772362707607553

Much like his best friend, Trump, Farage will huff and puff and shout until it comes to showing their work when they will quietly miss a deadline and the case will go nowhere.

I do find the positions politicians are taking interesting now. I think we will be entertained by the Tory hopefuls as they fight to show their credentials on what they think will win them support within the party with the other MPs while making them stand out among their members. They may not realize that what they pronounce now to win the votes of their peers and then the small slice of England will be used against them forever. Some forgetting to look at the woods instead of focusing on the trees.

serfboard

Nody wrote: »

Look at this purely from a Tory wannabie PM point of view. Scottland has minimal Tory card carrying voters (and the few that exist are likely pro union anyway) and chances are most if not all seats will be lost in the next GE anyway. Hence Scottland as a region politically is useless to them in terms of voter base and since they can't have a independence vote without the PMs approval (which they will never get from them) they are a perfect target to attack to bolster your English superiority and nationalism points with your voter base. It's basically what they wish (and some appear to still think think) was Ireland's position during the the EU negotiations.

Great analysis Nody.

The membership will only vote on the last two candidates, so in the first instance, the wanabe PM has to convince the MPs - there are only 13 of these from Scotland, and they are all unionists so this will be exactly what they want to hear too.

And the rest of the Scots can fúck right off.

I'd be worred about this sort of thing, though. As JFK said:

JFK wrote:

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible ... make violent revolution inevitable.

and from our own Charles Stewart Parnell:

Parnell wrote:

No man has the right to fix the boundary to the march of a nation.

4068ac1elhodqr

Crickey, further shortening on the market for Nigel to become a PM during 2019 at just 9/1.
(This was 66/1 last month, and 20/1 days ago).

It's also now just 6/1 for TBP to win any GE.

However reckon NF/TBP will actually join or merge with a Boris's Torys if they take a hard-fast brexit stance.
Meanwhile Labour themselves might well start voting for the LDs if they want things soft.

Scotland may as well get a head start on their Indie proceedings.

fly_agaric

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I’m floored by the arrogance of it. And sickened by the hypocrisy.
It’s a massive boost for indyref. Huge boost for it.
How any Scot can not see this as ‘sit down shut up know your place’ is beyond me. And there seems to be many.
You can’t hold a country hostage. It’s meant to be a union. Clearly the English imperialist infection has worsened deeply

Irish outsider looking in on the crazy doings in the UK since 2016 but that is what I would have expected from the Conservatives even if it may seem counterproductive. The (unexpectedly afair?) close result of Cameron's referendum gave them an awful shock IMO. They will never allow another one.
I think they'd close down the Scottish parliament if they are really pushed on it (e.g. if it ever tried to hold some sort of poll without permission)! Only way Scotland will ever get another vote like that again is under a Labour government.

Joe_ Public

Jazmine Big Dragonfly wrote: »

Crickey, further shortening on the market for Nigel to become a PM during 2019 at just 9/1.
(This was 66/1 last month, and 20/1 days ago).

It's also now just 6/1 for TBP to win any GE.

However reckon NF/TBP will actually join or merge with a Boris's Torys if they take a hard-fast brexit stance.
Meanwhile Labour themselves might well start voting for the LDs if they want things soft.

Scotland may as well get a head start on their Indie proceedings.

Maybe stranger things have happened but I'd love nothing better than to be a bookie laying people anything they like on Farage ever becoming PM (let alone this year) or the TBP winning a GE. 6/1 is just a stupid price, you can get nearly that on the exchange markets on them winning more than 10 seats which I doubt they'll manage anyway. Right this minute Nige is negotiating with the far right to join their group in the EU parliament. I couldn't see how any sane or moderate tory - still the majority of the party - would ever tolerate any kind of merger with that.

Stop moaning ffs

fly_agaric wrote: »

Irish outsider looking in on the crazy doings in the UK since 2016 but that is what I would have expected from the Conservatives even if it may seem counterproductive. The (unexpectedly afair?) close result of Cameron's referendum gave them an awful shock IMO. They will never allow another one.
I think they'd close down the Scottish parliament if they are really pushed on it (e.g. if it ever tried to hold some sort of poll without permission)! Only way Scotland will ever get another vote like that again is under a Labour government.

Let’s not assume Tories will be in power after the next general election. Which looks likely now.

4068ac1elhodqr

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Maybe stranger things have happened but I'd love nothing better than to be a bookie laying people anything they like on Farage ever becoming PM (let alone this year) or the TBP winning a GE. 6/1 is just a stupid price, you can get nearly that on the exchange markets on them winning more than 10 seats which I doubt they'll manage anyway. Right this minute Nige is negotiating with the far right to join their group in the EU parliament. I couldn't see how any sane or moderate tory - still the majority of the party - would ever tolerate any kind of merger with that.

Agree the prices are too short for what they are, the advantage however would be on us punters that picked the 66-100/1 last month, and now can lay them ourselves with 90% price collapses.

Nige walked out of that meeting with France/Italy as he didn't get his way.

If he decides to join the Cons he be running a hard bargain. But it's not outside realms of possibility when Boris leads them to a hard stance. And EEs are different kettles of fish to any GE.

Change whatever they're called will have to join the LDs and the Greens too in a remain coalition. To this day not sure where Labour stand(sit) on the matter.

fly_agaric

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Let’s not assume Tories will be in power after the next general election. Which looks likely now.

Not assuming (might be foolish to try and predict anything, let alone assume) but it not impossible they will be back in power after the next election despite all that's happened in the last few years!

Joe_ Public

Jazmine Big Dragonfly wrote: »

Agree the prices are too short for what they are, the advantage however would be on us punters that picked the 66-100/1 last month, and now can lay them ourselves with 90% price collapses.

Nige walked out of that meeting with France/Italy as he didn't get his way.

If he decides to join the Cons he be running a hard bargain. But it's not outside realms of possibility when Boris leads them to a hard stance. And EEs are different kettles of fish to any GE.

Change whatever they're called will have to join the LDs and the Greens too in a remain coalition. To this day not sure where Labour stand(sit) on the matter.

Very true, hard to say anything is outside the realm of possibility in these near insane times. As I read it, TBP is a perfect fit with the Europe far right bloc but he knows that kind of stuff won't go down electorally in the uk so he's carefully trying to steer a different, more subtle path but I think that will only get him so far and not through a protracted GE campaign. And i still find it very hard to foresee a scenario in which Farage gets to decide to join the Tory party when I would imagine there's at least half that party that would want absolutely nothing to do with him under any circumstances.

A Dub in Glasgo

fly_agaric wrote: »

Irish outsider looking in on the crazy doings in the UK since 2016 but that is what I would have expected from the Conservatives even if it may seem counterproductive. The (unexpectedly afair?) close result of Cameron's referendum gave them an awful shock IMO. They will never allow another one.
I think they'd close down the Scottish parliament if they are really pushed on it (e.g. if it ever tried to hold some sort of poll without permission)! Only way Scotland will ever get another vote like that again is under a Labour government.

Would tend agree with this, the Tories have consistently undermined devolution since the last referendum (with the pathetic help from Labour and the Lib Dems)