Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Stop moaning ffs

gooch2k9 wrote: »

Agreed, so long as it's via proper channels. They've been trying this divide and conquer tactic for nigh on three years now. It would be an awful shame to let it work now.

I'm not surprised the DUP have spoken up. They must feel the wolves circling after the past week in Westminster.

The lights changed ages ago.
The DUP didn’t see it and now know they’re about to pay a prove fatal to their existence and principles.

declanflynn

declanflynn wrote: »

Maybe after a no deal Brexit the brexiteers in Ulster can move home to england and pick the fruit that the eastern europeans used to pick

Unionists are of Scottish descent, it's Scotland they'll be going to, not England.

Jizique

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Unionists are of Scottish descent, it's Scotland they'll be going to, not England.

Just in time for Scottish independence - where then? Bolton? Stoke? Clacton-on-Sea?

Jizique

Jizique wrote: »

Just in time for Scottish independence - where then? Bolton? Stoke? Clacton-on-Sea?

Nowhere, they're already at home, but their ancestry is Scottish

Strazdas

Jizique wrote: »

Just in time for Scottish independence - where then? Bolton? Stoke? Clacton-on-Sea?

I've always thought Scottish independence would be a catastrophe for NI unionism / loyalism. So much of their relationship with England mirrors that of the Scots and for Scotland to withdraw from the UK would be an absolute hammer blow.

First Up

Strazdas wrote:

I've always thought Scottish independence would be a catastrophe for NI unionism / loyalism. So much of their relationship with England mirrors that of the Scots and for Scotland to withdraw from the UK would be an absolute hammer blow.

Not so sure; the allegiance to the UK reflects more their hatred if ROI than anything else. They would settle for a union with Scotland or a go it alone full independence long before a UI.

An Claidheamh

First Up wrote: »

Not so sure; the allegiance to the UK reflects more their hatred if ROI than anything else. They would settle for a union with Scotland or a go it alone full independence long before a UI.

Scotland would not accept a union them though

First Up

An Claidheamh wrote:

Scotland would not accept a union them though

There could be a lot of moving parts to this before the dust settles but if Scotland wasn't up for it, then full independence ("our wee country") would be the unionist preference.

Mr.Nice Guy

Senator Neale Richmond pointing out a home truth for Jacob Rees-Mogg:

https://twitter.com/nealerichmond/status/1150477822110130176

Strazdas

First Up wrote: »

Not so sure; the allegiance to the UK reflects more their hatred if ROI than anything else. They would settle for a union with Scotland or a go it alone full independence long before a UI.

But a disintegrating UK would be disastrous in terms of NI unionism. The union of England and Scotland predated the addition of Ireland by 100 years - the rump UK state couldn't even use the union jack as flag any longer if Scotland left.

Scotland wouldn't want to be in a union with them and independence is a non runner.

First Up

Strazdas wrote:

Scotland wouldn't want to be in a union with them and independence is a non runner.

I wouldn't be confident they won't give it go. The expression "Our Wee Country" is in wide circulation up north. As I said, there's a lot of moving parts in this.

declanflynn

Imagine the face on Arlene when boris tells her no more cash for N.I.

Water John

On an earlier theme, we import wheat from the UK for flour milling. In fact most of this TMK comes from Eastern Scotland. We'll have a word with Nicola.

Declan, Arlene will be....ashen faced!!!

Strazdas

First Up wrote: »

I wouldn't be confident they won't give it go. The expression "Our Wee Country" is in wide circulation up north. As I said, there's a lot of moving parts in this.

It could definitely work if say 80% of the population were in favour of independence but the figures are nothing like that

First Up

Strazdas wrote:

It could definitely work if say 80% of the population were in favour of independence but the figures are nothing like that

Depends on the other options available. The status quo isn't one of them.

reslfj

First Up wrote: »

I wouldn't be confident they won't give it go. The expression "Our Wee Country" is in wide circulation up north. As I said, there's a lot of moving parts in this.

Independent countries need to pay for themselves. NI gets around £10bn a year from London or around £8bn/yr in cach, I think, without defence, the Queen...

This is very much money for a small and weak economy. Why does it seem all realism have evaporated?

I believe the GFA will be difficult to fit into a NI seeking independence, too?

Lars

Strazdas

reslfj wrote: »

Independent countries need to pay for themselves. NI gets around £10bn a year from London or around £8bn/yr in cach, I think, without defence, the Queen...

This is very much money for a small and weak economy. Why does it seem all realism have evaporated?

I believe the GFA will be difficult to fit into a NI seeking independence, too?

Lars

Indeed, doesn't the GFA allow for only two options....remaining in the UK or joining the Republic? It makes no reference to independence for NI.

Lackadaisical

First Up wrote: »

I wouldn't be confident they won't give it go. The expression "Our Wee Country" is in wide circulation up north. As I said, there's a lot of moving parts in this.

It'd be a *bit* hard to do considering they haven't managed to maintain a government very successfully.

It's been suspended for about 7 years in total and it's only been in operation for barely 20 years.

There's very little to devolve power to when they can't get their act together on keeping the system running.

I mean if the EU were to say grant it special status, who'd be responsible for that? Most states in federal/quasi federal countries like say Spain or Germany have functioning governments.

It would be very odd if it were depending on Westminster to legislate on its behalf while the UK was outside the EU and Northern Ireland had some status within the EU and the UK.

Cookie_Monster

Nody wrote: »

Try New Zealand lamb. NZ et Al are pushing for the previous EU + UK total quantity to be moved to EU. As UK imported quite a bit those volumes will go into EU27 and I'd not be surprised if they may increase further with a updated FTA.

NZ lamb is a huge export and is cheaper in the UK then it is here in NZ as a result of the external demand.

First Up

Lackadaisical wrote:

It'd be a *bit* hard to do considering they haven't managed to maintain a government very successfully.

I said I wouldn't be surprised if they give it a go - not that they should or that they would succeed. Northern Ireland is complicating Brexit and Brexit is certainly complicating Northern Ireland.

We'll see where things go but this is about more than where customs checks happen. The EU will deal with stuff like that; the UK has to sort itself out and that's going to take a while.

volchitsa

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

NZ lamb is a huge export and is cheaper in the UK then it is here in NZ as a result of the external demand.

I'm not sure I understand this post correctly : NZ lamb is cheaper in the UK than it is in NZ?

I can see ways that that could happen but external demand alone doesn't make a product more expensive in its own country? Do you mean they choose to export rather than to sell at home so that what's available in NZ becomes a luxury product? Or is all lamb a top-of-the-range product in NZ?

Peregrinus

NZ does export a lot of lamb, not least because they produce a great deal of it, and have a small population which couldn't possibly consume such a quantity. However relatively little of it goes to the UK, which is a big producer of lamb itself - France, Belgium, Germany, the USA and Japan each take more NZ lamb than the UK does. Belgium is in fact the largest consumer of NZ lamb, taking about twice what the UK takes.

The huge bulk of NZ lamb is exported, which makes New Zealand a price taker as regards lamb - NZ lamb is priced based on what the world markets will pay, and they'll pay quite well because NZ lamb is premium lamb. NZ consumers pay the same price or, quite simply, they get no lamb; producers will not accept a lower price from NZ buyers than they can get from foreign buyers.

Within NZ the price of lamb is quite volatile, but this is largely because the NZ dollar is a volatile currency. When the NZ dollar falls, the price of NZ lamb in New Zealand rises because, despite the fact that its produced in New Zealand, the main buyers are abroad, bidding in foreign currency, and the NZ purchasers have to match that bid.

lawred2

Guiness is more expensive here than many export markets.. does that mean anything?

Peregrinus

NZ Lamb is more expensive in NZ than in many other countries for the same reason as Guiness is more expensive in Ireland: tax. As already noted, New Zealanders pay world market prices for their lamb. But, on top of that, they pay a Goods and Services Tax (equivalent to VAT) of 15%. Many countries have VAT, GST, sales taxes or similar, but most of them have an exemption for food. New Zealand's GST has no exemption for food.

reslfj

volchitsa wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand this post correctly : NZ lamb is cheaper in the UK than it is in NZ?

I can see ways that that could happen but external demand alone doesn't make a product more expensive in its own country? Do you mean they choose to export rather than to sell at home so that what's available in NZ becomes a luxury product? Or is all lamb a top-of-the-range product in NZ?

1. The producer will try to get the highest possible price for every lot/batch he sells.

2. Long term the price must be higher than production cost, but can be much higher.

3. This is one reason why our countries have rules for free competition - to keep sellers (somewhat) honest.

4. UK and NZ have different VAT systems, and I think different VAT rates for food.

5. Tariffs are very high (60%) for lamb/sheep, but NZ has a no/low tariff quota into the EU. The split of this quota is one item where the roll over of EU trade agreements currently is in trouble (EU product standards, seems to have been rolled over)

6 The end user/consumer price is about the worst place to compare prices realistically. What matters most to the country is the net import price = the loss of hard currency.

Lars

jm08

New Zealand is exporting lamb into the Asian market which has really opened up to themselves and Australia. The problem that NZ has is that the lamb shipped to Europe is not a premium product because it is frozen and mostly imported to fill a gap at certain times of the year.

France was always the big market for British lamb (Northern Ireland exports a lot there through Irish ports), but the french are not eating as much lamb as they used to and have switched to importing a lot more from Spain.

Joe_ Public

https://twitter.com/JayBhattNL/status/1150749330523000833

For my sins i watched the whole of Politics Live on bbc this morning and this wasn't the worst thing this particular bright spark from the BP came out with, but it was by far the most stupid. I find such inanity comforting because it suggests to me that when a GE campaign comes and you have the BP coming out with their bile (Farage and Widdlecombe) and utter moronic half-wittery (everyone else) they will drive voters away with every broadcast.

J Mysterio

Haha, was just about to share that one.
It's amazing - incredible - the level of ignorance and stupidity on display. And righteous anger to accompany it!

That woman is the 'Director' of 'Leavers Britain'.. Whatever that is. Embarrassing.

I'm starting to think that all Brexiteers are just bloody thick. Either that or they have a vested interest in Brexit. There can surely be no other explanations or mitigating factors?

How can you still fight for Brexit at this point? I mean really. At least when the vote was held, people weren't properly informed and had swallowed misinformation and lies. But now that these have basically all been disproved, how can there still be so much support?

Joe_ Public

J Mysterio wrote: »

Haha, was just about to share that one.
It's amazing - incredible - the level of ignorance and stupidity on display. And righteous anger to accompany it!

That woman is the 'Director' of 'Leavers Britain'.. Whatever that is. Embarrassing.

I'm starting to think that all Brexiteers are just bloody thick. Either that or they have a vested interest in Brexit. There can surely be no other explanations or mitigating factors?

How can you still fight for Brexit at this point? I mean really. At least when the vote was held, people weren't properly informed and had swallowed misinformation and lies. But now that these have basically all been disproved, how can there still be so much support?

I believe the BBC actually created her, and are at least partly responsible for the monster that is the Brexit Party. Not entirely their fault as, for balance purposes, they had to accommodate the Leave faction and Lucy Harris, for whatever reason, seemed a permanent fixture on BBC panels last 12-18 months, coming out with some spectacular drivel that saw her all the way to the Euro Parliament.

Some other great contributions today: on the Trump racist comments, she stated that it wasn't "a black and white issue." (I'm not joking!). In that clip above, you can see the guy to Cable's left actually trying hard not to burst out laughing.

Also on politics live a couple of weeks back, there was a section where Jo Coburn was asking a Labour and Tory rep about their party policies and then turned to the BP MEP on the panel and everybody, including the BP person, automatically started sniggering and tittering. It's just all a huge absurd joke. You'll notice Coburn never goes in hard on the BP reps, either she feels sympathy for them or thinks it's a waste of time. You might as well put a big orange pumpkin in the chair as you'll get an equal amount of sense out of it.

Professor Moriarty

J Mysterio wrote: »

Haha, was just about to share that one.
It's amazing - incredible - the level of ignorance and stupidity on display. And righteous anger to accompany it!

That woman is the 'Director' of 'Leavers Britain'.. Whatever that is. Embarrassing.

I'm starting to think that all Brexiteers are just bloody thick. Either that or they have a vested interest in Brexit. There can surely be no other explanations or mitigating factors?

How can you still fight for Brexit at this point? I mean really. At least when the vote was held, people weren't properly informed and had swallowed misinformation and lies. But now that these have basically all been disproved, how can there still be so much support?

Pedant that I am, I went to their About page:

Ever had to hide the fact you’re a Leave voter from friends, family and work colleagues?
Left out at work and fallen out with loved ones because you voted for what you believe in?
Lost friends over Brexit? Want to make some new, better ones?

You’re in the right place!

Leavers of Britain (LofB) is an online AND offline community bringing like-minded people together across the UK.

Whether it’s a friendly drink after work, or coffee and cake at the weekend, Leavers of Britain supports people like you to network, make new friends and bring your community together as we leave the EU. Together we can heal social divisions across the country and make a positive difference in Brexit Britain.

Love this bit:

After the referendum, Leave voters were accused of being either thick, racist or too old to matter. .